Am I Cynical or Maybe On To Something About Camps? [Archive]

DataNick

Apr-23-2013, 2:44pm

mandroid

Apr-23-2013, 2:49pm

Too much interstate travel for my cashflow.. But Im happy to see other people when they come to town.

Wednesdays at the Moose Lodge..
[Lower Columbia River, within sight of the Maritime Museum.]

Tenor Guitar Gathering is repeating for another year in June..

Just moving into a fixer -upper across town about Then.

mandolirius

Apr-23-2013, 10:31pm

I get the whole thing about instructional camps; God knows I really!, really!, really! want to go to Mike Compton's Monroe Mandolin Camp! That being said, I just don't see myself attending the majority of the "Gatherings" and "Camps" I see advertised. Maybe I'm cynical, but to me, and at my level of playing (Intermediate) it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on at the price of "paying" for their vacation. If the camp was one that was out of my area of experience/proficiency (like the Monroe Camp) then yeah, I get it. But I just can't get motivated to shell out $500-1000 for a 3-5 day excursion when I can practice my 3-4 hrs a day at home, and go to as many festivals as I can. I've learned more at jams & festivals by watching, jamming, and asking questions of better players...and it only cost me a festival ticket or the obligatory jam fee!

So I submit myself to be educated/corrected, but I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors, etc!

I don't know. You seem pretty set in your opinions and have expressed them vigorously. Camps are expensive and it can be hard to justify them on a "dollar per unit of instruction" basis or however you want to put it. The thing about camps is they provide a different kind of musical experience. Since you're likely to be with a hundred or more people who share your musical passion, you'll probably meet some pretty cool folks. Also, a lot of people just like the idea that they don't have to do a damn thing for however long the camp is. Food and entertainment covered. Sit back and relax, soak up the atmosphere, have some conversations with interesting people, jam your face off....these are the non-instructional experiences a camp can offer but, as I mentioned, something is of value only if the purchaser believes it is.

Scott Tichenor

Apr-23-2013, 10:55pm

You're cynical.

And... what's the word for it...

Oh, you only wish to hear from those that agree with you. Sorry, you didn't want to hear that. I'll stop there.

DataNick

Apr-23-2013, 10:57pm

I don't know. You seem pretty set in your opinions and have expressed them vigorously. Camps are expensive and it can be hard to justify them on a "dollar per unit of instruction" basis or however you want to put it. The thing about camps is they provide a different kind of musical experience. Since you're likely to be with a hundred or more people who share your musical passion, you'll probably meet some pretty cool folks. Also, a lot of people just like the idea that they don't have to do a damn thing for however long the camp is. Food and entertainment covered. Sit back and relax, soak up the atmosphere, have some conversations with interesting people, jam your face off....these are the non-instructional experiences a camp can offer but, as I mentioned, something is of value only if the purchaser believes it is.
Wow! never thought I come across as "set" in my opinions, but if that's the perception, who am I to argue!
I appreciate the feedback.
Anyway, like to think I'm teachable and didn't consider the viewpoints you expressed here. I guess from the perspective of kinda like a vacation (the non-instructional experiences), I get it! And like I said, I'll repeat; I really! really! really! want to go to the Monroe Camp; but for the instructional purposes I must confess!

DataNick

Apr-23-2013, 11:03pm

You're cynical.

And... what's the word for it... wishing to appear you're full of yourself I'd say.

Oh, you didn't want to hear that. Sorry. I'll stop there.

Now Scott, I did say I submit myself to be educated/corrected, so any honest comment like yours is appreciated. God knows I don't want to be perceived as cynical, and worse yet, inflexible to change. I probably can be full of myself at times. The only way to get better is to face the truth, so thank you!

I sincerely appreciate your honest feedback, and I'll re-examine my perspective.
Have a good one!

OldSausage

Apr-23-2013, 11:17pm

I'm sure it's extremely cool to hobnob with some hero instructors, and fun to meet others who take learning mando seriously. But by the same token, I don't think you have to feel bad if you're just not that into the idea. It's probably a bit like going on cruises - some people just love cruises and go on them at every opportunity. And some people can't think of anything worse. Both kinds of people are just fine.

JeffD

Apr-23-2013, 11:48pm

I took a workshop a while back, at a camp, and it changed my universe. Got me going in ways I still haven't recovered from. It wasn't a matter of things to practice or motivation to practice things I already knew I should. It was a way of seeing the whole fretboard in a new way. All of a sudden things I knew before fit into a grander scheme that I could build on. It was the beginning of a revolution for me, and how I play now is light years ahead of how I was before that workshop. And this is key, I could not have gotten here through brute force practice. It was not discipline I lacked, it was about three key insights that suddenly became clear for me that changed how I saw things. I had new eyes.

If a workshop gives you a couple of revolutionary ideas, ties a couple of half understood concepts together in a new and useful way, it is well worth the money. You never know.

allenhopkins

Apr-24-2013, 12:01am

I get the whole thing about instructional camps...really! want to go to Mike Compton's Monroe Mandolin Camp! That being said, I just don't see myself attending the majority of the "Gatherings" and "Camps" I see advertised. Maybe I'm cynical, but to me...it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on, at the price of "paying" for their vacation. If the camp was one that was out of my area of experience/proficiency...then yeah, I get it. But I just can't get motivated to shell out $500-1000 for a 3-5 day excursion when I can practice my 3-4 hrs a day at home, and go to as many festivals as I can. I've learned more at jams & festivals by watching, jamming, and asking questions of better players...and it only cost me a festival ticket or the obligatory jam fee!So I...I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors...

Guarantee that if you show up at any camp/weekend/workshop with that basic attitude, you won't derive a lot of benefit from it.

I attended Folk Music Week at Pinewoods Camp in MA for 23 years, but not with the specific goal of improving instrumental skills; it was more to see what was out there, meet others with similar interests, cultivate long-standing musical friendships, and expose myself (not in that way, though!) to unanticipated stimuli and experiences. At almost any camp you will have many chances to "watch, jam and ask questions" of experienced and talented players, and you may get the chance to spend hours learning from them and picking their brains (and mandolins), rather than a few minutes in a late-night festival jam.

But if you go with low expectations, ready to be disappointed -- you'll probably get what you're expecting.

SincereCorgi

Apr-24-2013, 4:44am

I'm sure I haven't been to anywhere near as many mandolin workshops as most people on this board, but, based on my experience, I'd say that maybe one in five is quite good. (I am defining 'quite good' as being a situation where you are exposed to some surprising insight that allows you to improve your playing.)

The rest vary a lot, my personal favorites being: (1) the one where some middling player is traveling the country to hawk his method books and (2) the one where you pay large amounts to sit near a mandolin hero who clearly is thinking about whether he'll have time to wash his clothes before moving on to the next town, all while men with very expensive mandolins ask him about his pick grip.

The problem, of course, is that you don't know which it's going to be when you buy your ticket.

AlanN

Apr-24-2013, 4:47am

I dig the workshops - daily, multi-day. Haven't been to many of the extended ones, but to sit around with a bunch of mandolin pickers trembling away, what could be better?

Bertram Henze

Apr-24-2013, 5:03am

Learning only works if unexpected.

http://gavin7w.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/dagobah.jpg

Ron McMillan

Apr-24-2013, 5:36am

Perry

Apr-24-2013, 5:57am

I've been to a bunch of camps....always have a good time. Jamming with others is where it's at. Yeah sitting at home at practicing for hours might get you further then a weekend at a camp but it's not as fun or inspiring and you can be doing that at camp too. Hearing the physical sound coming off a pro's mandolin in small room is a lesson in itself.

Enrolling in the Artistwork's Academy with Mike Marshall is by far the best bang for the buck. Personal instruction and peer evaluations. I was enrolled for quite a while but have switched my efforts to guitar lately. I recently enrolled in the Martin Taylor version and it's such a great learning platform for any isntrument.

bmac

Apr-24-2013, 6:25am

I do not attend camps either, for financial, health and family reasons. But I am sure that they would be beneficial not just for the classes, which may be above or below my skill level, but for the socialization with like minded enthusiasts. Some folks learn best in class-type situations. Others do not. It is really that simple.

lukmanohnz

Apr-24-2013, 7:06am

Guarantee that if you show up at any camp/weekend/workshop with that basic attitude, you won't derive a lot of benefit from it.

I attended Folk Music Week at Pinewoods Camp in MA for 23 years, but not with the specific goal of improving instrumental skills; it was more to see what was out there, meet others with similar interests, cultivate long-standing musical friendships, and expose myself (not in that way, though!) to unanticipated stimuli and experiences. At almost any camp you will have many chances to "watch, jam and ask questions" of experienced and talented players, and you may get the chance to spend hours learning from them and picking their brains (and mandolins), rather than a few minutes in a late-night festival jam.

But if you go with low expectations, ready to be disappointed -- you'll probably get what you're expecting.

I have attended one specific camp (http://www.walkercreekmusiccamp.org/) for three years in a row. It's the only camp experience I have so my perspective is limited. In those three years I: 1) took 3-day workshops from Roland White, John Reischman, and Sharon Gilchrist and gained key insights about mandolin technique from each of them; 2) saw jams and staff concerts that included some of the best pickers in the world; 3) wound up participating in a late afternoon staff jam that included Mike Witcher and watched him from a few feet away as he set his dobro on fire (metaphorically speaking, of course) several times, then had him tell me afterward that I 'did great' in the jam - which I know was him being polite and encouraging but meant the world to me anyway; 4) made many, many new friends; 5) listened in rapt attention as Bill Amatneek regaled us with stories and anecdotes about Tony Rice, David Grisman, Peter Paul & Mary, and others; 6) ditto Roland White telling stories about being on the road with Bill Monroe and reminiscing about his brother Clarence; 7) jammed with said new friends for hours, learning new songs, and having some of the greatest musical interactions and pure happiness I've ever experienced with my mandolin; 8) bought CDs of amazing music at the camp store - many which I'd have never found otherwise; 9) added three of my favorite t-shirts to my wardrobe (the t-shirts received as part of camp attendance that serve as reminders of one of my all-time favorite things in the world to do); 10) more, but I think you get my drift. YMMV.

JonZ

Apr-24-2013, 8:47am

You're cynical.

And... what's the word for it...

Oh, you only wish to hear from those that agree with you. Sorry, you didn't want to hear that. I'll stop there.

Call me cynical, but this needs an "I make money promoting mandolin camps" disclaimer.

OP is correct. For most people most camps will offer little bang for the buck. Let's say there are 10 courses. What are the chances that they will all be beneficial to you with your current skills and interests? In any other circumstance you would not take lessons from a person who has no idea of your instructional needs.

OP is correct again. If you have a particular interest in a particular subject that is being targeted by a camp, you increase the chances that courses will be of value.

The exception would be kids. Mine have gone to the Marc O'Connor camp, which really takes a shot gun approach, throwing a lot of variety at you. It did help to open up the world of violin to them. Seeing other kids enjoying music that I had told them was cool made them realize that maybe I knew a few things about what is cool.

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 8:55am

Unless I'm mistaken, you're telling us there's no way you'd waste your time and/or money going to a type of event you've never been to before, and are therefore in no educated position to judge?

Thanks for the feedback...I believe I said I "submit" myself to be educated/corrected.
Still happy to hear whatever comments folks might have...I look forward to changing the negative traits I surely have and need to identify.

Have a good one!

Jim Garber

Apr-24-2013, 8:56am

Some of my best lifelong experiences have been at camps and workshops. The most notable have been spending a full week with Tiny Moore (twice at Ashokan Western Week) and with Jethro Burns (Augusta Heritage Arts -- the only time he taught there). Come to think of it, another great experience was also at Augusta -- three week guitar making class with Wayne Henderson. And I have attended Carlo Aonzo's classical mandolin workshops in New York for years.

Randi Gormley

Apr-24-2013, 9:12am

I kinda think I know what you asked initially, Data; a good argument to counter your feelings that the money wasn't paying for anything much and that just hanging around was a better deal. And you're right, at least for the camps that I've attended, the craic (that's Irish for good times/music/companionship/laughter) has been the draw, not necessarily the lessons that cost above and beyond room, board and sessions (jams for the non ITM types). I don't think I can give you a one, two, three argument that will stand up to "yes, but ...!" Heaven knows I can't get anybody to give me a convincing reason why a beach vacation is worth my time and very many people can't imagine anything better.

But the workshops I've attended have been worth it, above and beyond the craic. I get a sort of inner satisfaction in being part of the interior life of the camp not just a hanger-on; I can nod a greeting to other people in my classes when I pass them on the street, see them in session later on or meet them in real life (outside of camp); I can trade nods with the instructors and, when I see them out in the real world, the instructors tend to remember who I am and even smile, even if they can't remember my name; I get music/tunes I wouldn't have learned on my own (my workshops tend to be multiple days with the same instructors, not one-offs) and the expectation I'll be able to do the work without any babying, which puts me on my toes; there's a feeling of accomplishment at the end that is greater than I'd have expected just by going to whatever's playing on the front porches or back rooms.
There's a lot of shared experiences, too, among the people in the class -- all those inside jokes that are hysterical but don't translate, the shared eye-rolling over the idiot who can't keep his/her fingers off the instrument even while the instructor is talking, the shy smiles of strangers hoping to meet friendly people -- plus all the other stuff everybody else has mentioned in their posts. I've been lucky in my workshops and there's no guarantee you'll be as lucky if you decide to take the plunge, but there are reasons why people pay the money and participate in classes year by year and it's not all because they want to rub elbows and show off for big names.

abuteague

Apr-24-2013, 9:49am

I am in charge of my own learning. I practice what I'm good at and I tend not to practice what I'm not so good at. Consequently, I tend not to make all that much progress.

Instructors are hit and miss. But a camp has a bunch of instructors. I've found that they can point out things I'm not good at in minutes and suggest strategies to improve. If I take their advice, I've found I do improve, more than I thought possible.

Sure, you will have to own up to your weaknesses. When they say, "play me something" and you can't because you don't have sheet music in front of you. Or Rich DelGrosso tells you it is your turn to improvise and he will back you up and you can't seem to find notes on a fretboard full of notes. Or you try to back out by saying, "my mandolin isn't that great," and Bill Walach demonstrates awesome technique on a duct-taped mandolin shaped object. It can be uncomfortable, but these instructors follow up and help you out on the path to learning by ear, memorizing tunes, improvising, getting the most out of your mandolin... because that is what they are there to do.

As gatekeeper, you get to decide how much to let outside instructors guide your playing.
At camps I've been shy and held back and I've been open and outgoing and the outgoing persona is more apt to help you learn from the camp environment.
Similarly, you can find yourself the loan Celtic enthousiast surrounded by Bluegrass aficionados, and you can go with it or shut down. I have found just going with it can be surprisingly satisfying. Bowing out has not proved to add much to my playing.

Even if I come to camp with an agenda of what I want to learn, I might come away from camp having learned something else entirely. I generally feel renewed and excited about practice again.

Know yourself. If you are not open to learning things you have avoided learning, or if you intend to observe from the back and not talk to people to "try it out," then it might well not be time to look at camps right now. Maybe a new book and DVD combo or a couple of fresh CDs of your favorite artists would be a better value. Indeed, sometimes I skip camp myself and do something else.

GuitarDogs62

Apr-24-2013, 9:59am

I am planning on going to a camp next year. Here is my take on it. I want to play and play and play. The learning oppurtunities is unlimited. It just doesn't come down to the instructors and staff, but from all the tricks and tips that fellow campers have to offer. I feel the camp is what you make of it and the goals that you want to obtain and achieve. I feel the light bulb will go on in my head on certain things that I was really not all clear on. Then after the camp is over, take a few days more and plan a nice little vacation seeing the area and all the sights and things to do that it has to offer.

John Duncan

Apr-24-2013, 10:04am

I have been to a few camps, and would like to offer you a perspective that I recently gained.

You will learn more about your playing from the other camp attendees. You can learn what not to play, when to play, what sets you apart from others, what others do that is desirable for you to learn, how to make music with others, just HOW IMPORTANT RHYTHM IS, and how to back people up.

Going to the 4 camps I have been to took me way outside my musical comfort zone.

I hear you on staying at home and jamming at festivals and around town. You can learn a lot that way. But, for me personally, I want to throw myself into as many unfamiliar musical situations as I can.

JonZ

Apr-24-2013, 10:04am

Guitardogs62--The "camp is what you make of it" reasoning means you would gain the same benefit from any camp. Surely there are differences.

GDAE

Apr-24-2013, 11:04am

it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on

This seems the fault in your reasoning to me. You assume they aren't going to notice anything that you don't already know about. What if they noticed something you hadn't even realized you could do better, and show you how to do it? It could move you up to a whole new level.

JeffD

Apr-24-2013, 11:16am

Guitardogs62--The "camp is what you make of it" reasoning means you would gain the same benefit from any camp. Surely there are differences.

No, it means you will get more out of any camp the more you put in it, and it is possible, with little effort, to get nothing out of a great camp.

Sure there are great camps and workshops and classes and instructors, (four different things BTW), and poor ones. And one is not always going to get a great one, but is likely go get a good one, and every now and then there is a klinker.

JeffD

Apr-24-2013, 11:24am

Sure, you will have to own up to your weaknesses.

This is MUCH harder than it seems. We are all self deprecating to some extent, partly as a defense, but really we all have things we feel we are pretty good at. But (as a wacky friend of mine used to say) the beginning of understanding is standing under. Its hard to find out that the little corner of competence you held on to for so long needs perhaps to be abandoned, or thought through a little more, and the ocean of ignorance in front of you is colder and more lonely than you thought. It happens to me every time. And that doesn't make it easier.

The first workshop I attended I was afraid to take out my Gibson, because (I figured at the time) it made me look like I knew something, giving me a loftier perch to fall from when the truth came out.

usqebach

Apr-24-2013, 11:26am

I'm struggling to add additional insight to what I've already read, but I can relate that from a learning perspective, I've digitally recorded (post cassette tape era) virtually every class I've been in over the last 4-5 years. And though I make a sincere effort to solidify the learning immediately, I also know that I've got 50+ CD's full of instruction, tips, and tunes waiting on my retirement some 8-10 years hence. (I'm making sure I have CD back-ups, and 2 or 3 computers so that I can still use what will inevitably be outdated media by that time.)

In addition to that, I've met some of the coolest people, both students and instructors. Bruce Molsky happens to not only be arguably the best old-time fiddler extant, he's also the most thoughtful teacher, and a humble and super cool guy to hang around and have a beer with! Wouldn't have imagined that just from listening to his CD's. I learned all this at my 4th "once in a lifetime opportunity" (that's how I sold it to my wife!) at Swannanoa last year. Going back for Fiddle/Mando week this year!

And though some might think that $1000 is a lot for a week of instruction, if you factor in the food, lodging and entertainment, I think that's pretty reasonable. Once I get the kid grown and gone, if I can figure out how to mollify the spouse, I could rationalize the cost as a 50k/yr "retirement lifestyle" and be a permanent camp dweller! I could do worse!

How much is all that worth?

Mickey Soltys

Apr-24-2013, 11:28am

A couple of things about the original post stand out to me. One is the idea that you are paying for the instructor's vacation. Most people who get hired on as instructors are dedicated professionals or they would never have learned to play as well as they do. They have put in as much time and effort as professionals who get paid much, much more in other fields. If they are working hard at imparting their knowledge and are genuine in their desire to help you improve, then they are working. They could probably use the money and I am sure most would rather be with their families and sleeping in their own bed at night.

I think someone else already pointed this out but you say that you already know what you need to work on but really, if you are like most musicians, you only think you know. It has been my experience that the more you know, the more there is to know. Being around master players can change your fundamental conceptions about what playing and music are really all about.

There is no need to be cynical about it, if it is not for you, move on. However, make sure you really, really know why it is not for you before you do.

Bertram Henze

Apr-24-2013, 11:30am

...the beginning of understanding is standing under...

... the ocean of ignorance in front of you is colder and more lonely than you thought.

... a loftier perch to fall from when the truth came out.

What is this, a party of emperors dancing in their new clothes? :))

JeffD

Apr-24-2013, 11:31am

Jim I tried the recording thing. What I found was it made me a lazy student. I was less attentive and participated less, because I figured I had it captured and could work on it later. And because I was focused on capturing the information, not on learning anything. Once early on, my batteries died. The panic that "its learn it now or never again" set in, I dug in and worked at it in real time. I got a lot more out of the class, not as much as I might could have, but more than I usually did. So stopped bringing recorders and just go and hung as best I could. Better for me in the long run.

Your retirement plan sounds ideal to me.

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 11:36am

This seems the fault in your reasoning to me. You assume they aren't going to notice anything that you don't already know about. What if they noticed something you hadn't even realized you could do better, and show you how to do it? It could move you up to a whole new level.

You're right!

Thank You!

I think I've covered my desire to be corrected/educated above....

usqebach

Apr-24-2013, 11:46am

Jeff,

Different strokes...

I find that regardless of the amount of focus, it's impossible to take in all the info the instructor is trying to impart on the first go-round. Especially with music being transmitted aurally. And by Friday morning, after 12 previous classes to that point, it's all a blur.

I spent most of my winter practice hours working up 2 or 3 tunes that were taught by Bruce and Mike Bryant last year. But learning the notes wasn't half of it. I actually get irritated at the "tune junkies" in class who have to walk away with 5 new tunes to take back to their home jam session. What I love to hear is how the instructors articulate their specific stylings, and I also find that tends to be more "sticky" if I can hear them on tape (binary code??) later.

And as for the batteries, I hear you! I now take a full package of about 30 of 'em in my accessory bag. Dang that Zoom H4 eats them like candy!

Oh, and p.s. (edited), when I'm recording these classes, I can't tell you how many times some musical phrase or instructors comment got past me. I'm exactly the kind of difficult student who would stop everything to say "What was that?" or "Can we do that again?"" If I've got it recorded, I can let the class have its normal flow, knowing I can come back to that point later on.

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 11:48am

OK,

Thanks everyone for the responses...I get it....the public "paddling" is now over.
Spanking is for correction, not punishment, and I acknowledge being corrected.

Just to give some background on my post: a jam friend of mine who has been playing his instrument for about a year just came back from a camp. Being the type of 'A' (anal) driven person I am, I'm sure he's going to tell me all of the things he's learned; and mine you I'm sure the camp was good. He couldn't tell me one thing he learned; I asked him did he get one on one instruction, he said yes, I say well, what did you learn..."stuff". So I'm thinking, you paid $700 for "stuff"....Mind you, as I've said before, I plan on going to Mike Compton's Monroe Camp (if they'll have me after this diatribe LOL), so I'm not completely down on camps. Just his response really soured me, and he's a guy who could really benefit from some sound instruction.

So that's the context of my post...this from a guy(me) who's extremely driven. I practice 3-4 hrs per day, not to brag, but because I'm obsessed with becoming "good". I leave a weekly 2.5 hr jam every week and go home and play for another 2 hrs to give you an idea. My mando goes everywhere I go...even on dates (in the movie theater, at dinner, etc) so for him to say uuuh! really set me off!

Didn't ask to be this way, just the way I'm wired....

I do sincerely thank all of you for your input...some really good observations have switched my thinking; and isn't that what it's all about?

JonZ

Apr-24-2013, 11:56am

Yer not gettin' off that easy, Bub.

Andy Alexander

Apr-24-2013, 11:58am

Getting students divided into their areas of interest and levels of abilities makes for a much better learning situation. It allows the instructor to better zero in on what students need to learn. It minimizes time spent on topics that are only reviews for many of the students. Students need to be proactive and come with an idea of what they want to learn.

I often wonder why there isn't more "one on one" teaching going on in conjunction with concerts and festivals by touring musicians. It seems like another $200 for a couple or three hours of private instruction would be welcome income to a professional sideman. I would think that a student could gain a lot from a $50 investment with a professional player. I have often thought about how to facilitate this with the festival I produce.

JeffD

Apr-24-2013, 11:59am

What is this, a party of emperors dancing in their new clothes? :))

Its the coffee Bertram. I am trying a new coffee from Ethiopia and it is affecting me. :))

JeffD

Apr-24-2013, 12:04pm

JeffD

Apr-24-2013, 12:07pm

Its also a personality thing. I have become convinced my life could be much much better but for the one or two fact-oids about to be imparted to me by the guru, at which time someone sneezes, or worse, I start to daydream or panic, or worry about how neat my notes aren't, and lose my only last chance for enlightenment.

pefjr

Apr-24-2013, 12:11pm

I get the whole thing about instructional camps; God knows I really!, really!, really! want to go to Mike Compton's Monroe Mandolin Camp! That being said, I just don't see myself attending the majority of the "Gatherings" and "Camps" I see advertised. Maybe I'm cynical, but to me, and at my level of playing (Intermediate) it seems like a waste of time for an instructor to tell me what I already know I need to work on at the price of "paying" for their vacation. If the camp was one that was out of my area of experience/proficiency (like the Monroe Camp) then yeah, I get it. But I just can't get motivated to shell out $500-1000 for a 3-5 day excursion when I can practice my 3-4 hrs a day at home, and go to as many festivals as I can. I've learned more at jams & festivals by watching, jamming, and asking questions of better players...and it only cost me a festival ticket or the obligatory jam fee!

So I submit myself to be educated/corrected, but I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors, etc!Cynical...hmmm...no, but you are speaking from your own perspective. Those camps benefit most that go or they would not keep going and paying. I kinda agree with you, that at my level and interest, I can spend my money in a better way , like ....buying another mandolin.

Russ Donahue

Apr-24-2013, 12:15pm

Man....can we focus on ideas and not people?

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 12:18pm

... I can spend my money in a better way , like ....buying another mandolin.

Just did that, again! (MAS/MAD)

Alex Orr

Apr-24-2013, 12:45pm

I've actually thought camps would be great, but that one-day workshops seem a bit of a waste. I'd love to do the Monroe camp, but there is that issue of money :(

Bob Bledsoe

Apr-24-2013, 12:58pm

OK,

Thanks everyone for the responses...I get it....the public "paddling" is now over.
Spanking is for correction, not punishmeint, and I acknowledge being corrected.

Just to give some background on my post: a jam friend of mine who has been playing his instrument for about a year just came back from a camp. Being the type of 'A' (anal) driven person I am, I'm sure he's going to tell me all of the things he's learned; and mine you I'm sure the camp was good. He couldn't tell me one thing he learned; I asked him did he get one on one instruction, he said yes, I say well, what did you learn..."stuff". So I'm thinking, you paid $700 for "stuff"....Mind you, as I've said before, I plan on going to Mike Compton's Monroe Camp (if they'll have me after this diatribe LOL), so I'm not completely down on camps. Just his response really soured me, and he's a guy who could really benefit from some sound instruction.

So that's the context of my post...this from a guy(me) who's extremely driven. I practice 3-4 hrs per day, not to brag, but because I'm obsessed with becoming "good". I leave a weekly 2.5 hr jam every week and go home and play for another 2 hrs to give you an idea. My mando goes everywhere I go...even on dates (in the movie theater, at dinner, etc) so for him to say uuuh! really set me off!

Didn't ask to be this way, just the way I'm wired....

I do sincerely thank all of you for your input...some really good observations have switched my thinking; and isn't that what it's all about?

I gotta say - first, this is a great thread to read through for someone like me who has never been to a camp and is trying to learn a bit more about them...
Second, I think DataNick has been extremely diplomatic with some of the responses that seemed to be slamming him for expressing an opinion. To me, the original post expressed his current thoughts on the subject and then welcomed feedback to help him understand another viewpoint.
I love some of these exchanges that basically go:
MEMBER: "Hey Nick you're a jerk!"
NICK: "Maybe I am. Thanks for the feedback!"

Anyway, good thread!

Sweetpea44

Apr-24-2013, 1:18pm

It's probably a bit like going on cruises - some people just love cruises and go on them at every opportunity. And some people can't think of anything worse. Both kinds of people are just fine.

I think Rhonda Vincent does a Bluegrass Cruise. Best of both worlds? ;)

mandolirius

Apr-24-2013, 1:20pm

I gotta say - first, this is a great thread to read through for someone like me who has never been to a camp and is trying to learn a bit more about them...
Second, I think DataNick has been extremely diplomatic with some of the responses that seemed to be slamming him for expressing an opinion. To me, the original post expressed his current thoughts on the subject and then welcomed feedback to help him understand another viewpoint.

This was how he expressed his offer to be educated/corrected:

"So I submit myself to be educated/corrected, but I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors, etc!"

It doesn't come across as an earnest statement expressing open inquiry. It sounds like someone who actually isn't particularly open. I'll agree he has clarified and perhaps modified his original stance a bit but I wouldn't blame anyone for taking the OP to be basically, "knock this chip off my shoulder". It reads that way.

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 1:40pm

This was how he expressed his offer to be educated/corrected:

"So I submit myself to be educated/corrected, but I just don't get it. I rather pick than watch the evening performance of the instructors, etc!"

It doesn't come across as an earnest statement expressing open inquiry. It sounds like someone who actually isn't particularly open. I'll agree he has clarified and perhaps modified his original stance a bit but I wouldn't blame anyone for taking the OP to be basically, "knock this chip off my shoulder". It reads that way.

I sincerely apologize to all who may have perceived a "chip" or axe to be grinded. I believe I have explained the "context" of my thinking at the time. If anyone has personally been offended by my questioning of the "camp" methodology, I apologize again. If I could go back in time and re-word it to spare anyone's hurt feelings I sincerely would!

I continue to welcome all of your thoughtful responses and helpful input...

JonZ

Apr-24-2013, 1:42pm

Sometimes the interpretation reveals more about the reader than the writer.

mildini mandolini

Apr-24-2013, 1:48pm

Dear Data Nick

I started to play the mandolin in 1978 in Germany and there was little if no instruction for Bluegrass Mandolin available. I crossed the country in search of opportunities end for example once endured 3 hours of the worst Nashville Country and Western Music (Marlboro Promotion Tour) to hear live 4 tunes by the Osborne Brothers. We copied Jack Tottle's book and other tab publication over and over until everything was grey. when David Grisman and his Quarttett showed up for a surprise gig in the early eighties there was a trek of mandolin players flocking from all over the country to attend the concert - there was no advertisment - just word of mouth with only 2 days notice...... we all made it and I don't know if Grisman ever played for an audience with a higher mando player content ever....

fast forward 30 years
as I am now living in Canada I was able to attend the Mando Symposium a few years ago

it was mando heaven - we would have loved to have those opportunities 30 years ago

not only instruction, jams and great comradrie
also daily music appreciation lessons with a faculty of the biggest names in the business who at the same times were the nicest and most approachable folks you can imagine

yes I cherished the faculty concerts
where do you get to see live Mike Marshall, Don Stiernberg, Andy Statman, Sam Bush , David Grisman, Tim O'Brian, Mike Compton sit down, joke around, play amzing music in a casually athmosphere and enjoy themselves as much as the drooling mando auddience. See Hamilton de Holanda, Evan Marhsall in solo concerts. you get to handle their Loars and Gilchrists (by the way touching their mandos does not help your playing whatso ever - I even tried to have them play on my mando - no difference for my playing as well ) and you get to ask all the stupid questions you always wanted to ask like what pick Sam Bush uses etc......

Instruction was great and there was the chance to ask for some personal tips etc.

you definitly learn ftons rom the other attendees

I 'd go back any time to any camp if I have the opportunity

I thought I robbed the instructors alive if I look at what I got out of the camp and waht I paid for it....

well this is my opinion

would like to hear back from you once you have been through Mike's camp

Please don't get me wrong

we are not picking on you but want to get you picking

good Pluck

Stefan

Perry

Apr-24-2013, 1:54pm

I love some of these exchanges that basically go:
MEMBER: "Hey Nick you're a jerk!"
NICK: "Maybe I am. Thanks for the feedback!"

Anyway, good thread!

That's the funniest thing I've read on here in a while. But insightful commentary nonetheless.

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 1:56pm

Thanks Stefan!

Very insightful to your experiences. I have heard great things about the Mando Symposium...I know one of the instructors, Chris Acquavella, and I've heard only great things!

By wanting to get me picking, I'm assuming that you mean at a camp...and I plan to do just that!
I was just in a cynical moment after a friend of mine returned from a $700 camp investment with what appeared to be from my perspective, little or no technical takeaways...

Thanks again for the response!

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 2:01pm

Sometimes the interpretation reveals more about the reader than the writer.

I appreciate both the barbs and defense.

Let's move on...this is how I suggest we approach responses from here on out (copy & paste if you like):

Dude, you were being cynical.
I know how it feels to be cynical, I've felt the same way at times, re: camp experiences, here's what I found....

The feel, felt, found method always resonates in the receiver's mind better than barbing...

Can we all just get along?...

JonZ

Apr-24-2013, 2:12pm

Sure...

What was the topic?

sgarrity

Apr-24-2013, 2:43pm

Go to Monroe Camp. It's an awesome experience and Mike is an exceptional teacher

DataNick

Apr-24-2013, 2:45pm

Go to Monroe Camp. It's an awesome experience and Mike is an exceptional teacher

Thanks for the feedback..that is the plan! (even before I started this thread, LOL)

montana

Apr-24-2013, 3:17pm

From my camp experience the instructor has to teach to the level of the class. It could be too hard or too easy for you but it's a fun vacation.

mandodan1960

Apr-24-2013, 3:57pm

Mike Bunting

Apr-24-2013, 3:57pm

I've only been to two camps, several times each. The first was the Sorrento camp in B.C. In an idyllic location in the Canadian Rockies, I spent a week jamming all night long (or at least as long as I could stay awake!), two daily classes with Radim Zenkl the first year and John Moore in the second with lots of private time with the instructors for general chats or questioning. The instructors seemed to be available most of the time and quite amenable even though they were there to work, it wasn't a paid holiday for sure. There were all kinds of opportunities, both formal via band scrambles and lots of informal jamming. Radim's lessons were filled with ideas that would take one outside the usual confines of one's imagination as well as hand outs of all kinds of cool scales that later, after I assimilated them, became very useful. John Moore's classes were very much based on the learning process, how to listen to ourselves etc. With his good humoured approach, he certainly got us stretching out.

The other camp that I've been to a couple of times is the Monroe camp driven by Mike Compton. Wow, what a collection of great players, both amateur and pro, who are welcoming to all levels. There are a few cafe members who would attest to that. Classes on all aspects of Monroe style playing and there are opportunities for one on one learning, there's nothing like sitting knee to knee with Mike Compton getting a lesson, a detailed one too. I remember sitting one afternoon in the lobby with Roland, playing some tunes and chatting and having Raymond Huffmaster sit down to play immaculate rhythm guitar. I could go on and on.

What did I learn? Some of the stuff was technical, and having players of the calibre of the teachers here objectively critique your playing is absolutely invaluable, but even greater was discovering more of the mental attitude that it takes to play music. The biggest thing I learned was to play a lot and listen a lot.

UsuallyPickin

Apr-24-2013, 4:30pm

Go to a camp .... it is much more entertaining the playing / learning by yourself at home.... and indeed the learning becomes exponential ... the stated goal of many camps is to give you enough "stuff" in a week to keep you busy applying it and all it's permutations until it is time to go get another dose. Also ... sitting in class and watching an "A" level player work his or her instrument is an education you can't get from a DVD or an interactive lesson. SKYPE is good , I take SKYPE lessons .. but for me in person is better for the immediacy and intimacy of the exchange. just sayin' R/

Patrick Sylvest

Apr-24-2013, 4:31pm

Having been an instructor at a camp, I can tell you that it's no vacation and that when folks are paying for my attention and instruction I take the dollars they've invested quite seriously. I come prepared and focused ready to meet as many needs as I can.

I've also attended several camps/instructional weekends and do not regret a single one. I've got some lifelong friends from these experiences that I treasure.

The Fur Peace Ranch is a gas gas gas!!!

SternART

Apr-24-2013, 5:33pm

I've got some lifelong friends from these experiences that I treasure.

Me too...........new friends from not only all over this country but other countries as well. Some I've visited in my travels, others I see again at Camp & it is like a reunion each year. I've bought & sold mandolins.......played about every brand of mandolin & had set up work done on my instrument. I also take away a years worth of things to work on. And like others have said it is nice to have no phone, computer, etc. Nothing but music for a week, for me, getting away from my daily routine is rewarding too!

OU1

Apr-24-2013, 8:43pm

WOW......lets just say it like this: to each their own. Camps are different for everyone. I would love to attend and know it would help an "average" player like myself....I think it would be fun....but I choose to hang on to my money and continue on my current average path being happy and impressed with people who are better at playing the mandolin than I. Maybe someday I will attend one and post my experience!

Scott

GO SOONERS!

greg_tsam

Apr-25-2013, 9:30am

My experience at the Warnick Jam camp was that a lot of the participants were quite well heeled. Several Doctors,Lawyers and Business owners amoungst us regular folk. Most of the regular folk had decent jobs. My take away was that most of these camps are really not targeted to people who think that 1K is a lot of money to spend on a nice 4 or 5 day getaway.

I was thinking the same thing. It's a matter of perspective and position when you boil it down. A $30 supper doesn't make much of a dent when you make $100,000/yr but if you're only making $25,000 then it's out of the question. I have a weird and inconsistent income so I can see it from both sides but my friends that have been at the same job, making good pay, year after year, with their company matched IRA's and full benefits just can't remember what it was like to worry about the price of gas going up or how to pay for a car repair, new tires or a new pair of work clothes when the light bill and rent is due.

"We live in two different worlds, dear..."

chip

Apr-25-2013, 9:55am

I was thinking the same thing. It's a matter of perspective and position when you boil it down. A $30 supper doesn't make much of a dent when you make $100,000/yr but if you're only making $25,000 then it's out of the question."
At $30 its no longer a supper...it's now called a dinner :grin:

foldedpath

Apr-25-2013, 10:44am

I often wonder why there isn't more "one on one" teaching going on in conjunction with concerts and festivals by touring musicians. It seems like another $200 for a couple or three hours of private instruction would be welcome income to a professional sideman. I would think that a student could gain a lot from a $50 investment with a professional player. I have often thought about how to facilitate this with the festival I produce.

There's some of that in the Irish/Scottish 'trad scene -- touring musicians who do workshops and/or private instruction when they're in town for a larger public show.

For example, last summer the Irish fiddler Kevin Burke had a series of house concerts and other public performances in our area. My fiddler S.O. attended a workshop with a group of other fiddlers at one location, before one of his house concerts. Then we went to see a solo concert he gave at a local winery. In the afternoon before that concert, she booked a one-hour private lesson. It was at the private home of the person organizing the winery concert where Burke was staying. She had her lesson outdoors, in the shade under a tree on a perfect weather day; just talking about fiddling and getting a bit of instruction from one of the legends in Irish music.

It was only an hour of instruction and conversation, but she came out of it with a few revelations about bow technique and rhythm, after asking him some specific questions. It gets back to knowing what you want to get out of any workshop, but that doesn't always work in a group setting where the agenda is set by the instructor, or sometimes by the other students. With a private lesson, you can go in with a specific goal in mind, and a good teacher will accommodate it. That's different from the type of "instruction" you sometimes get in workshops, like "okay class, here's a tune I'm going to teach you to play."

I think that could be done in connection with Bluegrass festivals too, but it would help to have an artist like Burke who actually does spend time teaching on the side, as well as performing. Just grabbing a famous performer out of a band who doesn't do much teaching on the side, might not be as positive an experience.

It probably goes without saying, but there is also a threshold skill level for the student with a "master class" like this. A student needs to be at least intermediate level to get much out of it. Or rather, to know what they're trying to get out of it. I think DataNick's comment about his friend coming back with a vague notion of "stuff" they learned, is just a reflection of the fact that rank beginners don't know how much they don't know, or what they need to learn. Getting past that point takes time, and sometimes it's enough just to be exposed to the general vibe of a festival or workshop as an incentive to keep at it.

stevedenver

Apr-25-2013, 10:53am

Thanks to you nick.

It takes an open mind to expose your feeling, and obviously to get everyone's feedback,
without the diplomacy or softness of civility if they werer speaking with you , face to face, over a beer. Thats the "beauty" of a forum, sometimes.

It is my own experience, that no matter where or what or who, theres something to be learned. and sometimes, there are long periods in between. And depending on how much coffee you've had, or the deadlines in your life, you might not always be in the right mindset.

This is like criticising Disneyland to the faithful, because you had a great time, but complain too of having spent more of your time waiting in line than actually doing things.

What i do understand too, is that simply, sometimes we make risk-loss-gain analysis, based on our perceptions, available time, money, effort, personality, and other factors and stresses in our lives.

Somehow, it is not inconceivable to me that someone may have thier own experience and opinion, which differs from someone else's. This isn't, per se, negative.

Given some of the responses to Nick, I'd think twice about how I might ask a question, or request feedback around here.

shortymack

Apr-25-2013, 11:35am

stevedenver

Apr-25-2013, 11:50am

Less analyzing, more doing, when it comes down to it is the only way to see if things are right for you. My shoes dont fit you and I hope yours dont fit mine either. If you choose to go to a camp and do or dont like it, well then you know, if you dont go because of what someone else said you will never really know.

To me, a value of a forum is feedback, which helps me analyze and make decisions, about things I dont know and cant easily sample.

This includes how to learn, what to buy and to avoid, how to play, music I might enjoy, tips, strings, etc. and, from reading lots of posts, those members whose posts reveal objectivity, thought, experience and knowledge. I understand that there is nothing as valid as first hand experience, but there are only so many hours in the day, and dollars in our wallet.

To me, and many others from my experience, the value of civil discussion is that keeps the ability to communicate and HEAR open.

shortymack

Apr-25-2013, 11:56am

You can analyze until youre blue in the face but the only way to really know is hands on. I dont like pizza, and others think Im crazy, but I would never of known that without taking a bite.

stevedenver

Apr-25-2013, 12:03pm

mighta been a bad pizza huh? LOL

shortymack

Apr-25-2013, 12:11pm

Every pizza is a bad pizza to me, but in-n-out, now thats a different story!!! :))

Thanks for the lol, I hope not to come across so seriously and I do like and invite discussion as well. Its all good as they say.

DataNick

Apr-25-2013, 12:15pm

mandolirius

Apr-25-2013, 12:31pm

Given some of the responses to Nick, I'd think twice about how I might ask a question, or request feedback around here.

I don't see that he's been treated badly. As I said, his offer to be "educated" was not expressed very diplomatically, imho. I think he's reaped what he's sown to some extent and I don't think it's been particularly mean-spirited. Go back and read the forum guidelines. Lively discussion, it says. I'd say this thread meet the criteria.

terzinator

Apr-25-2013, 12:39pm

what's your feeling on BlueChip picks? :grin:

Never been to a dedicated camp, but been to workshops at fests, and whatnot... Some are great, some not so much. So much of it has to do with the instructor, and whether he/she is (inspiring, focused, thoughtful, attentive, coherent, unambiguous, etc...). I've been to workshops where the instructor likes to show off what they know, and some where they come across as patronizing or condescending. And those are no fun, obviously. But I've been to workshops where the instructor seems truly interested in helping you discover what you can do. Steve Kaufman is one of those guys.

I would think at the camps, there is an effort to put people with similar skills/abilities together, for the most part. Festival workshops can be a mixed bag of sheer beginners and seasoned players. (Even if the clinic is designed for a particular skill level.)

I'd love to attend one of these (that Compton Monroe camp sounds awesome, and Jorma's Fur Peace camp, too), but I'm guessing it'll have to wait until the kids are older and I have more free time!

I think your friend should have been the one to post here; he's the one who should be taken to task for not paying attention at the camp he attended!

KristinEliza

Apr-25-2013, 12:51pm

I attended my first camp 8 years ago and contiue to go to it annuallly. Five years ago I added a second workshop and continue to attend it annually. Last year I added a third camp and will probably attend it again this year.

The majority of the instruction I get is NOT in my area of interest, but I ALWAYS get some little kernal of knowledge/insight into my playing from every class! Now, if you compare that to the money I spend to go there, you might think that is a waste of time...and you would probably be right!

But there is so much more to these camps and workshops than just the instruction. I have met so many fabulous friends/musicians/composers through these camps that it is priceless! And this is the only venue where I get to play 'this style' of music with others (it gets boring playing alone at home)...so again...priceless.

To each their own...

And as far as this being the instructor's vacation???? As a teacher, I certainly don't consider August-June a vacation!!!! :))