f v A

[willy jeff]

I'm new to this, sorry if this has been hashed to death. If a good A5 sounds just as good as a good F5, why does every name-brand master of the art play an F5? I'm in the market for a jump in tone and sound from a couple of good instruments. I'm looking specifically at Ellis and Nugget mandolins, maybe Gilchrist. If I can get a Nugget A5 for 10k, and the F5's are running 20k plus, and there's no difference in tone and volume, why should I buy the F5? Why does anybody? Thanks

[billhay4]

"Anybody" buys them because anybody is driven by everybody.
A's sound just as good as F's.
Bill

[JeffD]

Because the scroll looks so cool. So darn cool.

No greater difference in volume or tone than there is between any two individual instruments.

To say the choice is purely aesthetic should not be interpreted as a slight against those that chose the scroll. Tone, volume, and playability are not the only things about a mandolin we love. Love isn't that disciplined or rational.

And I know I am in it for love.

It is objectively verifiable that I am not in it for money.

[willy jeff]

This is cool. thanks for the replies. I live in a remote area in Oregon and don't even know another mandolin player. Up until now I didn't know about MAS, or that I had it. Can it be cured? Actually, never mind. Thanks again.

[greg_tsam]

That F scroll strap hanger is just so darn pretty is the only real difference. I was amazed the first time I saw a F style mando without the top on and the wood blocks inside.

[Jim Garber]

It is the same thing as buying the car with the extra chrome or nicer-looking wheels or leather seats instead of the plainer model that is cheaper -- both will get you there (in a practical sense) but there are other emotional issues involved.

In 1983 I bought one fo the very first carved Flatiron mandolins. Mandolin Brothers had both models of this very new -- in fact it was so new that there were not yet F models). One was the A5-1 and for $100 more (IIRC) a fancier A5-2 with superflamed maple back and binding and fancier headstock inlay. They truly sounded the same but my impractical side said i might as well pay the extra money and get the fancier one.

There is more to it than merely tone production.

[OldGus]

The F model should have a more balanced weight, A models tend to slump forward when you're not holding on to them. Neither model will necessarily sound better, it comes down to the individual example.

[yankees1]

A VW bug will get you from point A to point B as will a corvette ! But some people would rather drive the corvette ! One person is me and I do ! :)

[stevedenver]

this is so very true
there is the utilitarian aspect
there is the aesthetic

and then there is simply buying what you like because you like it and it makes you want to play
that feeling that "i love this mando, guitar, pair of jeans, etc"

it really isnt any more complex than that to me

some guys like fancy, traditional, others like sleek, modern, progressive-whats in YOUR wallet? LOL

[dcoventry]

Let me get this right:

You're looking to get an Ellis, a Nugget or possibly a Gilchrist, and you have not formed a hard opinion on this subject? I am surprised if this is the case.

IMHO, you play mandos until you find the one that sounds right in your hands. Jody stretcher and others plays A's that sound sooo good. Others, F's. But I doubt any of them was specifically looking for something other than tone.

[JeffD]

Just as an aside, I would guess that the majority of professional mandolin players worldwide play a bowlback. If not a majority, at least the most popular mandolin among those getting paid to play would be a bowl.

Maybe not, but I bet its close.

[billhay4]

Willy Jeff,
A couple of questions and some advice. It's worth what you pay for it.
1. Where in Oregon? There are some great luthiers in Oregon, most around Portland, but some in Bend, and others elsewhere. Take a look a the Builders page. Buy local (I'll explain why later).
2. How good a player are you? I know you've got money if you're seriously considering these models, but in my experience a really good mandolin only comes alive in the hands of a really good player. If you are, or expect to be, a really good player, get the best instrument you can. If not, a $3000, $5000 or some other instrument will serve you just fine. Investing in mandolins is, in my view, a disservice to the business and a non-money maker to boot.
3. Do they ever let you out of your part of Oregon? If so, play some instruments. This harks back to my advice to look up local builders. Their instruments are easier to get hold of and play. But, no matter how good a player you are, and if you are a good player this is especially true, you really can't make an informed decision on an instrument until you've held it, played it, listened to someone else play it, and felt it's vibe.
Good luck.
Bill

[grassrootphilosopher]

The F model should have a more balanced weight, A models tend to slump forward when you're not holding on to them. Neither model will necessarily sound better, it comes down to the individual example.

I hate to contradict but I think that it´s not true.

If you support the F-model mandolin by the body-scroll the mandolin quite surely will be neck heavy. So the F-model wil have a tendency to "slump forward" (I have played a couple of Gilchrists where this seemed not the case... but generaly I found this to be true).

You´d be a fool to support an A-model mandolin other than putting the strap on the headstock (but that´s just me, and I´ve been called a fool before). So if you put one end of a strap on the headstock and the other end on the endpin what you´ll get is a perfectly balanced mandolin however neckheavy it might otherwise appear to be.

You attach the strap in other locations and the results will be different, no doubt.

I think that the question wether you are dealing with an oval hole mandolin as opposed to an f-hole mandolin, a teens Gibson as opposed to a twens Gibson as opposed to a thirties Gibson etc., a Flatiron vs. a Nugget is more of a question that has to be answered.

I have played A-model mandolins (f.ex. my trusty 30ies Strad-O-Lin) that I would put above many a higher priced F-style mandolin (oval hole or F-hole alike). I have played Gibson A-4 mandolins (one from Boetzke in the Netherlands that I liked very much) that I would put on par with some old F-4 Gibsons, I played the ultimate mandolin (1924 Gibson F-5) that I thought sounded awfull until I heard my own wonderful F-5 mandolin played back to back.

It somewhat comes down to personal preference (and maybe the style of music that you play). If you have the access to the instruments try to play a Gilchrist (A and F), a Nugget (A and F) and maybe a Duff (A and F) back to back you might find out interesting things. I was in a jam session with a Gilchrist F-5, a Nugget F-5 a Duff F-5 and my Strad-O-Lin. While I found that my mandolin held up pretty well the difference was noticable. Yet the difference in price between the Duff (at the time available for 4.000,- USD) and the Gilchrist or the Nugget (roughly about 20.000,- USD at the time) was definitely not noticable. I have had the chance to play said Gilchrist (and other Gilchrists from the same period - early 90ies, also one very early Gil from about ´79) and I found the Duff F-5 on par (not necessarily true with Gils from past 2000). Whatever, there´s no easy answer to the question.

[billhay4]

While A's and F's have no appreciable differences in sound as a group, there are tremendous variabilities in individual instruments. I don't think ANY generalizations about sound make much difference when you are actually buying an instrument: except, that is, your own judgement and taste.
Bill

[OldGus]

You´d be a fool to support an A-model mandolin other than putting the strap on the headstock (but that´s just me, and I´ve been called a fool before). So if you put one end of a strap on the headstock and the other end on the endpin what you´ll get is a perfectly balanced mandolin however neckheavy it might otherwise appear to be.

I am talking about sitting down without a strap. When your holding something up with straps it matters less if it isn't weight balanced. Disclaimer: this wasn't meant to be a key point. I said that in reference to a question I asked of a seller here on the classifieds about the differences between two mandolins they were selling, both from the same builder, one A5 and one F5. They told me the biggest difference was the balance of weight was better on the F5. Certainly this could vary due to design, execution of that design, between builders, and between examples. I would think an F would have more mass and weight around the neck, so by that you would think it would slump forward more but they also have the points to help counteract this when you are sitting down. The body also stretches forward with the scroll which I would think would shift the center of gravity. So I am talking about the overall balance and the center of gravity more so than just the weight of the neck. Yes, it varies by example, but can that be my answer for everything?

[Markus]

Doesn't Tim O'Brien play a Nugget A?

When you're at that level, you are paying for nice stage clothes - paying for a stage mandolin that looks fancy would seem to go with the territory [even if it's 5 to 10k more].

[stevedenver]

wow
stage clothes

with no disrespect intended

thats a new concept to me when it comes to a player's choice in a mando
were not talking Zakk Wylde and a bullseye design

or given the genres i can think of, its the 'anti -hero' more likely

as for flash, hard to think an A , imho theyre modest in design
and there are far more flashy appointments than a nugget imho
and im willing to bet 29 out of 30 folks watching wouldnt know nugget from a goldtone, perhaps not given the number of players in the audience

OP
with a 10K + budget,
you have a pretty good selection of fine instruments-
if you can do 20K that great
if you can do 20K and not be too concerned even better



but i too am surprised you dont have a preference in design
but maybe its all down to sound and fit-

given the current resale market, id chose wisely no matter what you decide, 'cos you may have it a good while-yes the top names are a best bet in this regard, but it is relatively few in that strata of buyers

what mando are you currently playing?

i think that i too live in 'no-mando land', as far as ready-to-try mandos
-so it is worth, imho, to buy from a reputable seller with the option to return the instrument at your discretion-what others rave about might not be for you-this i know first hand from buying archtop guitars-its a lot ewasier to swallow a $300 screw up (shipping) than a 3K or more

there is a downside to wonderful things-they most be protected-hard to play in a crappy bar with a Gil, (not that ive done so, but i probably wouldnt if I had one), etc

[xiledscot]

It gives me a lot of perverse pleasure to take my F5 along to play trad jigs and reels.To listen to the purists I am commiting some kind of sacrilege :)
In reality there is very little to choose between my F5 and my A5.I prefer my F5 for Bluegrass but that's just me.
Instead of paying 10-15k or more on a very nice toy.............do what I did and get yourself a really good sounding A5 and a really good sounding F5!!
Satisfy your MAS cravings and save some money for the next one.


Oregon sounds like my kind of town................it's where the chin for my saw comes from....right?

[sgarrity]

Get one of each! On a serious note......in that price range you need to play a lot of them and pay for the one you can't live without.

[Eddie Sheehy]

A VW bug will get you from point A to point B as will a corvette ! But some people would rather drive the corvette ! One person is me and I do ! :)

Apples and oranges - you sgould have compared a VW Bug to a VW bug-convertible
or a Corvette T-top to a Corvette Convertible...
Seeing as we're talking the same builder's A's and F's not a Gil A to a Tony Tsai F ...

[Eddie Sheehy]

Doesn't Tim O'Brien play a Nugget A?

When you're at that level, you are paying for nice stage clothes - paying for a stage mandolin that looks fancy would seem to go with the territory [even if it's 5 to 10k more].

Actually a Nugget/Collings collaboration that's ascribed to his name... but he also plays a 'killer' Giacomel Octave Mandolin...

[Wolfmanbob]

It's possible that many of the builders save their best wood for the F's. On the other hand I've seem and heard some wonderful A's. I have a two point which is essentially an A with points that sounds great. iI really think it's a matter of the builder, not the design.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Yes, it varies by example, but can that be my answer for everything?

Naturally not. And we´re all cool.

Sitting down I would still say that an A-model is balanced better. The little point may help the F-model to stay in place. But what if you are Mrs. Griffith... (The points hurt her legs so he ordered her one without the points...; quote from: http://www.mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/tuttaylor.php)?

The balance of an instrument varies. This is my experience. I´ve played Gilchrist F-5 mandos that were top heavy and some that were not (they also had a better sound... connection?). My old A-5 style mandolin sounds great... better than my F-5 style mandolin...? They are apples and oranges. I would like not to generalize.

In a 10 k budget try out a Duff A-5 (about 5 k new) vs. a Gil A-5 (about 10 k used), vs. a Duff F-5 (about 9 k new), vs. a Gil F-5 jr. (about 17 k new) vs. a Gil F-5 (20.500,- USD new), vs. a Dude A-5 (about 15 k used), vs. a Dude F-5 (about 20....something used or new), vs. a Monte F-5 (17 k used) vs. a Dude A-5 jr. (about 8 k used....) etc. When that day comes, drop me a note and I´ll buy you coffee, because I´d like to try out all those boxes too. I think sound is so subjective and all instruments may have something going for them. (soundwise a disapointment was a Monte A-5 style [white like a Gibson A-3] that I saw at a Jimmy Geaudreau workshop. It sounded jangly and tinny. If i new then what I know now, I´d probably say that it sounded green and needed playing in and that it would eventually become a great instrument... back then I didn´t like it.)

[foldedpath]

It gives me a lot of perverse pleasure to take my F5 along to play trad jigs and reels.To listen to the purists I am commiting some kind of sacrilege :)


I have to admit I take pleasure in that same perversion; playing an F-style mandolin in local Irish and Scottish trad sessions. At least you can hear it -- sometimes -- among the massed wall of fiddlers.

It's even better on the occasions when I bring along my F-style octave mandolin, bucking the trend for "Celtic" flattop style OM's and 'Zouks.
:)

"What the heck is THAT!!!???"

[mandobassman]

Actually a Nugget/Collings collaboration that's ascribed to his name... but he also plays a 'killer' Giacomel Octave Mandolin...

No, actually he plays a Nugget A that he's had his entire professional career, and he has a Nugget octave as well. He may have one, or more, of the Nugget/Collings mandos, but his original Nugget A is still his main mando as far as I know.

Another fine example of a Nugget A is the one that David Peters (three-time Winfield Champion) played most of his career. I had the chance to play that mandolin a couple of times and it was the most responsive and best sounding mandolin I ever played.

This A vs. F has been beat to death so many times, and there will always be conflicting answers, but I will add that the reason that the F has become the mandolin of choice for Bluegrass is because that is what Bill Monroe played. For me, the choice always comes down to tone and nothing else. I prefer A models because I feel you can get the same level of sound quality without having to spend twice the money for fancy looks. If I were spending the kind of money it takes to get a Nugget or Gilchrist, A or F would make no difference. I would buy what sounded the best.

[doc holiday]

Holding up the A end of things, recently is Joe Walsh of Berklee fame & formerly of the Gibson Brothers who plays a Gilchrist A....& incredibly well at that!

[dcoventry]

OK. Let's meet half way.

A 2 point.

[TheArimathean]

Or be gone with F vs. A and look at a three pointer...? (photo from www.bentrup.com)
101142

[stevedenver]

oh yass!

but an entirely different sound im told

[mandroid]

F and you may have to take the class over, again, if you need it to graduate..

[stevedenver]

F and you may have to take the class over, again, if you need it to graduate..

kosmic, dude!

[DataNick]

No, actually he plays a Nugget A that he's had his entire professional career, and he has a Nugget octave as well. He may have one, or more, of the Nugget/Collings mandos, but his original Nugget A is still his main mando as far as I know.

Another fine example of a Nugget A is the one that David Peters (three-time Winfield Champion) played most of his career. I had the chance to play that mandolin a couple of times and it was the most responsive and best sounding mandolin I ever played.

This A vs. F has been beat to death so many times, and there will always be conflicting answers, but I will add that the reason that the F has become the mandolin of choice for Bluegrass is because that is what Bill Monroe played. For me, the choice always comes down to tone and nothing else. I prefer A models because I feel you can get the same level of sound quality without having to spend twice the money for fancy looks. If I were spending the kind of money it takes to get a Nugget or Gilchrist, A or F would make no difference. I would buy what sounded the best.

Ditto! (though I feel that 'F' models look "cooler")

Thanks Larry!

I thought from the OP's comment "why does every name-brand master of the art play an F5?" that he was referring to Bluegrass. If Mr. Monroe had played an 'A' model Epiphone, then the majority of bluegrassers would be playing that!
Outside the bluegrass genre, I'm not aware of any such debate.

FYI, I just saw a DVD of Doyle Lawson & Quicksilver from about 2005, and he was playing a Montelone 'A' model..sounded great to me! The hype on F vs A is precisely why the same model mandolin in an 'A' model can be up to $1K cheaper than the corresponding 'F' model...go figure!

[Chip Booth]

I opted for a combination of tone and value, a Gilchrist A style.

101211

[greg_tsam]

No, actually he plays a Nugget A that he's had his entire professional career...

I saw him a couple months ago and that's what he had. He also plays with a Fender teardrop pick that he sands down to adjust the bevel. I asked for an autographed pick for my buddy's pick collection and that's what he pulled out of his pocket and signed. Nice guy and seemed genuine


Another fine example of a Nugget A is the one that David Peters (three-time Winfield Champion) played most of his career. I had the chance to play that mandolin a couple of times and it was the most responsive and best sounding mandolin I ever played.

Where is that Nugget? Did his family mothball it?


This A vs. F has been beat to death so many times, and there will always be conflicting answers, but I will add that the reason that the F has become the mandolin of choice for Bluegrass is because that is what Bill Monroe played. For me, the choice always comes down to tone and nothing else. I prefer A models because I feel you can get the same level of sound quality without having to spend twice the money for fancy looks. If I were spending the kind of money it takes to get a Nugget or Gilchrist, A or F would make no difference. I would buy what sounded the best.

I agree but all else being equal I'll pick the strap holder option.

[mandobassman]

Where is that Nugget? Did his family mothball it?

I've often wondered that same thing. I would have assumed that Kelly would have known, but I never heard anyone say.

[GTO]

I can only get my head around A style with oval hole.

[LA Mando]

I've always wanted an F, but they are too neck-heavy and I end up fighting them all the time with my left hand. They do vary widely in weight distribution (I've tried a lot), but I haven't found an F that I can easily play. Thus, I play an A. I'll keep the F for the holes.:)

[allenhopkins]

...sorry if this has been hashed to death...

You said it.

...If a good A5 sounds just as good as a good F5, why does every name-brand master of the art play an F5?…

Well, as discussed above, not every famous mandolinist plays an F-model. You have to look back into "mandolin history" a bit. The most visible maker of pro-grade mandolins in the early-to-mid-20th-century was Gibson. Not that there weren't many other makers of good mandolins, but Gibson was the "big dog," thanx to a combination of good quality, innovative design, and aggressive marketing. And the best of Gibson's mandolins, were the F-models, including the exceptional F-5's built under Lloyd Loar's supervision. So the Gibson F-5 sorta became the "gold standard" for US-made mandolins -- not just for bluegrass, but for virtuosi in other styles, e.g. Dave Apollon.

The primacy of the Gibson F-5 was not due to its silhouette, but the scroll-and-points design Orville Gibson came up with around 1900, had an esthetic appeal. Combined with the perceived acoustic superiority of the Gibson F-models, there built up a persistent association between the F-style body, and "top quality" mandolins.


...I'm in the market for a jump in tone and sound from a couple of good instruments...If I can get a Nugget A5 for 10k, and the F5's are running 20k plus, and there's no difference in tone and volume, why should I buy the F5?...

Right you are. "Differences in tone and volume" don't come from addition or subtraction of body scroll and points. However, F-models have become the standard of quality mandolins, despite the numerous exceptions cited above. Manufacturers of quality mandolins tend to build F-models, because that's what people want, for generally non-acoustic reasons. Not to say that you can't get an A-model from a top-grade builder, and yes, it will save you money as compared to his/her F-model.


...Why does anybody?...

'Cause we love the shape, and 'cause our mandolin heroes all played 'em, and 'cause they have great re-sale value, and 'cause they're super-cool...


...Thanks

You're welcome; any time.

[Mike Bunting]

I know one high end builder who hears a difference between A's and F's, at least the ones he builds.

[almeriastrings]

I'm in the market for a jump in tone and sound from a couple of good instruments.

What are you playing right now? How much of a "jump" are we taking about?

Ellis... Nugget.. Gil... they have quite different total characters as well as 'feel'. They may (or may not be) a significant, if any, "jump" from any one of several other very good builder's instruments. You've already heard Duff spoken of in that context. There are others. Names on pehgeads do not, necessarily, guarantee total superiority, though these are all very fine mandolins. Similarly, paying an extra 7-10K for an 'F' over an 'A' can bring zero sonic rewards, but, hey... if you like look better, why not?

[JeffD]

I know one high end builder who hears a difference between A's and F's, at least the ones he builds.

I am sure its true. Further, I would think an experienced builder could shade those differences either way, making the next A sound more like the last F and so on.

[almeriastrings]

Just on the basis of a few side-by-side comparisons, I've found the individual instrument variation to be far greater than any consistent 'A' to 'F' difference I could ever detect. I have two Silverangels, for example, one 'A' and one 'F'. They both sound like Silverangels and I honestly could not say which SOUNDS best... they both have very much the same distinctive character (and volume). I also had an F5G and an A-5G here together not long ago, both built within a year or so of the other, and again, hair-splitting close. I think those fancy strap hangers are quite expensive... despite that, I like them :mandosmiley:

[Timmando]

If I was considering spending that much money on a mandolin, I would not be shopping for a name on the peghead. Meaning I wouldn't spend that kind of money to have one built by a famous builder. The only thing that would sell me would have to happen with the instrument in hand, after test driving at least 3 or 4 in that price range. I have already made the mistake of buying without hearing at the beginning level of buying. At the price level you are in, definitely test drive. Why an F instead of an A? Because Monroe played an F and thats that. (I'm glad Tiny Tim played the ukulele and not Monroe! Maybe Tiny Tim is WHY Monroe played the mandolin instead of the uke?) If you are not influenced by peer pressure, then the A style should be your choice. Tim Obriens A style sure sounds good, at half the cost. Or, as was mentioned, get one of each for 5K each, and have the best of both worlds.

[stevedenver]

Well one thing about an A is that you'll never have to worry about the scroll getting knocked off by the lame brained banjo player while shifting around on stage, my ongoing nightmare, as if I don't have enough to think about! LOL, but true.