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Jim Garber
Feb-24-2004, 10:40pm
Well, I braved the freezing rain today to go to New York for a business appointment. I was near 57th Street/Carnegie hall area, so I planned for a visit to my favorite old style sheet music store, Patelsons, right in back of Carnegie Hall on 56th Street near 7th Avenue. BTW they do have a Web site (http://www.patelson.com/).

With the help of a sales person, I located the small section of mandolin music. This store is amazing -- I am not sure if there are many like it in the US -- but they did have a nice but small selection of German import sheet music, including some arrangements by the Troesters. I bought the Henle edition of the Beethoven pieces (to replace my Hladky copies which annoy me with their eccentric fingering) and 2 duet books (in preparation of Victor and my actually getting together to play) -- one called "Die Mandoline Auserwähltes für zwei Mandolinen" and another German-published book of 12 Duets by Domenico Manchinelli.

Given the nature of New York, I wholly expect one day to turn down that block and see that store closed or replaced by a nail salon, so every time I go there I thank the gods that it is somehow still in business.

While looking thru the selection the other customer in the store asked me to move my coat so he could get into the same section. Amazing, that the only other customer in the store should turn out to be another mandolinist. He says he is familiar with our little board here (may be a lurker) and is a professional oboist fron the UK in town from some performances who has taken up the mandolin as a sideline. #He had taken a lesson or two from Ali Stephens and currently has a Baroque mandolin (Vinaccia copy) on order from Dan Larson. Small town that NY.

After my visit to Patelson's I went downtown to 48th Street which is (or was) the main music street in NY. Upstairs, in the acoustic section at Rudy's music there is a rather nice 1906 (sn 1918) Style 3 (I believe) Martin bowlback. I told the folks there to immediately change the strings to the requisite light gauge and I detuned it for them after playing it for a short time. As with all these, it is playable but needs that luthier's magic touch to be a real playing instrument. They were asking $1500 for this mandolin, prob somewhat on the high side IMHO, but likely it will be there for awhile and possibly negotiable. Contact info (http://rudysmusic.com/) for those interested. Here (http://www.gbase.com/gearlist/guitar_picture.asp?guitar=507011&home=dealer) is a picture and some description. It would be nice to have it in the "family."

Anyway, that was my day in NY. I feel like I accomplished all I intended, given the small amount of time.

Your humble reporter,
Jim

margora
Feb-25-2004, 9:34am
Patelson's, yes. I've never been, but a friend of mine, a soprano (with whom I play duets on guitar) visited a while back and bought me a copy of two arrangements of Joplin rags for mandolin and guitar. Definitely on the agenda for my next visit to NYC.

Neil Gladd
Feb-25-2004, 10:49am
I'll be in NY on Friday, but just up and back for a rehearsal. But I will have SIX PERFORMANCES there over the next few months! I'll post the details soon, and will hope to see some of you New York mandolin types there.

Neil

vkioulaphides
Feb-25-2004, 10:54am
Oh, YES, please do!

(No promise that I myself will be able to escape from my relentless grind... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Jim Garber
Feb-25-2004, 11:27am
Yes, Neil, do let us know. I will spread the word around the NY mando-community. With enough notice, I can attend

The last time I heard Neil play was in the 1980s in what was called Weill Recital Hall.

Jim

John Zimm
Feb-25-2004, 1:22pm
Off the subject (and maybe in poor taste), this talk of New York brought to mind a little Ambrose Bierce. #From the Devil's Dictionary: Mammon, n. The god of the world's leading religion. #His chief temple is in the holy city of New York. #

I am glad to see mammon has not overtaken Patelsons. #It sounds like a good place.

-John.

vkioulaphides
Feb-25-2004, 1:37pm
Ah, Patelson's... I go there all the time— even when, knowing full well what will come of it, I should know better. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It's hard for anything NOT to be "mammonized", one way or another. Always the suspicious financial-analyst-at-heart, I suspect that Patelson's must have some, whole or partial ownership of the little nook it occupies. Otherwise, with your average "hole-in-the-wall" retail space in Manhattan claiming rents of $10-20K/mo. —yes, I do mean both K AND month— it's hard to see anyone selling classical music, in any form, barely breaking even.

And the realtors know it: Strangle one occupant with relentless hikes, sucker in another one (a.k.a. "The Last Fool" phenomenon), strangle HIM the same way, drive a few more out of business, all while also driving up the rents. What could be better business? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

John, my friend, I have you to blame for taking me down this digression #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #Both of us are blessed/damned with similar philosophical concerns... Add to that my background from a place where every store is a so-called "Mom 'n' Pop" store and you imagine how stern my disapproval of our business-model really is.

All by way of an aside. I step out the door A.S.A.P., on my way to get me some goodies from Patelson's!

Ali
Feb-25-2004, 4:16pm
Well, well, well...... you bumped into my new friend Tony Robson. Not only is he a professional oboist but he is the principal oboist with arguably the leading period orchestra in Europe - The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment. He's a gem of a man and I for one am very flattered that he is finding our little instrument so attractive and fun to play!
ALI

Jim Garber
Feb-25-2004, 5:24pm
Hi Ali:
Interesting... and he had some very good things to say about you and your playing. He seemed to be quite the character and we had a nice long conversation about various folks we know in common. Even Hugo d'Alton was touched upon.

As I said, NY is really a small town -- you never know who you will run into.


Jim

John Zimm
Feb-25-2004, 9:20pm
Victor-your digressions always bring me a smile. Have you ever written a stream of consciousness short story or anything? I would love to read it if you have.

-John.

vkioulaphides
Feb-26-2004, 8:21am
*warning sounds, sirens, alarm bells* Beware, John, beware! *more warning sounds* You are tempting the Gods of Platitude and Obfuscation #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

If I ever DO write anything, much in the vein you suggest, it will be a present-day commentary on ancient Greek myths and legends, but the real, symbolic, allegoric meaning of them, not the idle, fairy-tale account we get out of books nowadays.

Think of king Midas, committing the very, VERY fashionable hubris of greed, succumbing to the temptation to "monetize" EVERYthing in life, only to be ultimately left to die a wretched, horrible death amidst his ever-mounting net worth... Not a hollow story about some weird, old guy, way back when, with a long beard and a gilded robe, nor some trivium for casual conversation.

But, my friend, ehm... the publishers are not quite clamoring on my doorstep #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Bob A
Feb-26-2004, 12:11pm
All brick & mortar establishments catering to the more obscure tastes ought to be patronised, lest they disappear. More power to Patelson's.

Meanwhile, our own Delphic Oracle has spoken, suggesting that the Powers That Be cut benefits for those of us whose hopes for retirement have already been squashed by greedheads sucking the life out of the marketplace, (none of whom will ever do hard time for stealing billions), and the outsourcing of everything possible to the Third World.

It ain't only Midas who is condemned to a horrible death. But in the East, there's at least a tradition of feeding the greedy with a ladle of molten gold. Sadly, the West seems totally lacking in Just Despots these days.

I trust the hijacking of this thread by yet another digression will go unremarked. Just my little rant - I MUST stop reading the news.

jehannarc
Feb-26-2004, 1:06pm
Just despots? In what country does one find those?

You wacky man, you.

vkioulaphides
Feb-26-2004, 3:09pm
Having thus inadvertently and unceremoniously passed the "Thousand Post Mark", I can voice no more, lame protestations of modesty, etc., etc. But, on this, rare occasion, I might even attempt to bring the thread back on topic.

When I first came to New York in the late '70's, there were about a dozen or so shops where violins and like instruments (and their respective bows) were actually made! Try now to find someone, ANYone who does not simply sell prefab items as his "core business"...

Not unlike N.Y., my birthplace once boasted hundreds (yes, HUNDREDS) of little shops that actually built bouzoukis, mandolins, et al. Look at the present-day picture: The 30-or-so instrument stores still in business basically sell Fender amps— not to slight or slander a great company with great products, but, I ask you this: What exactly is the "value added" to the whole exercise of import/export? Little, precious little, if at least you compare it to the value added to a hunk of wood(s), metal, and the occasional oyster-shell, on its way to becoming a glorious, singing mandolin!

I can only second Bob on the need that [QUOTE]"brick & mortar establishments catering to the more obscure tastes" be supported. A luthier I know has a "rent to own" plan for youngsters who might wish to play one his instruments, with installments matching the price of an average video-game. It's an idea...

Jim Garber
Feb-26-2004, 3:17pm
When I first came to New York in the late '70's, there were about a dozen or so shops where violins and like instruments (and their respective bows) were actually made! Try now to find someone, ANYone who does not simply sell prefab items as his "core business"...
I believe that there are still many makers of such instruments, however they cannot afford to have their shops in the very visible high rent districts. 57th Street (near to Carnegie) was the center for violin shops but those rents are sky high. I have met quite a few violin-makers who now have their shops in the suburbs or other states altogther.

I have a friend who is a top violinmaker and works out of Brooklyn. he is currently fighting the forces that be to retain his shop which is diretly in the path of the proposed stadium. This is life in the big city.

Since we are asked to think globally these days, however., I have noticed that there is a very strong surging of quality makers in China these days. I think companies like Eastman are tapping into that.

Jim

vkioulaphides
Feb-26-2004, 3:51pm
A positive thought is always appreciated; thanks, Jim.

Incidentally, on your future treks to the city, might you have an hour or so to spend with yours truly, mando in hand, beverage(s) on the house? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I am happy/sorry to report that I am working every single weekend, all the way to Memorial Day. The burden, to be honest, seems to be wearing THIS old mule out...

On the other hand —flashback from previous digression— who am I to cast the first stone, when I all-too-eagerly "monetize" the time I really ought to be spending with my family (or mando), devoting it readily to these relentless professional engagements?

*slap-on-face* Enough! Drop me a note when/if you can, Jim. Then, in better times, I will reciprocate the visit and also get to meet all your lovely toys.

Jim Garber
Feb-26-2004, 6:33pm
Well, well, well...... you bumped into my new friend Tony Robson. Not only is he a professional oboist but he is the principal oboist with arguably the leading period orchestra in Europe - The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment. He's a gem of a man and I for one am very flattered that he is finding our little instrument so attractive and fun to play!
ALI
Speakin of Mr. Robson...
I was reading thru the NY Times art section and found this (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/26/arts/music/26BART.html) article. In the print edition there is a small picture with an oboist who i believe is Mr. Robson.

I think I must have run into him between shows.

Jim

billkilpatrick
Feb-26-2004, 8:53pm
i grew up in new york and when i first got interested in playing music (folk-songs around the fountain in washington square...ah yes...) i used to frequent a series of pawn shops that used to be (i say 'used to be' because the last time i was in new york i couldn't even find the empire state building) ...used to be in the bowery. i remember seeing a beautiful, bowl-backed mandolin in a window down there that was covered in what i imagined to be mother of pearl. the complexities of what i now know to be re-entrant tuning flummoxed me forever for the mandolin but i want you'se guys to know that i think about that mandolin to this day.
rainy days...smelly little shops in manhattan...thanks for the memory - bill

Jim Garber
Feb-26-2004, 11:30pm
There was a legendary pawn shop called the Bargain Spot. The place was packed with junky old stuff you could barely move. The owner was a real crank, but if you were able to get on his good side, there were treasures to be had for a price. Some insane instrument collector friends came there one day with wads of cash in hand -- they called it an "instrument adventure day" -- and cajoled the owner to take them upstairs. There were some serious high end instruments up there, a few Loars, L5s, vintage electric guitars and old French and Italian violins.

Despite the name, there were no real bargains to be had, since the owner knew his stuff and what it was worth or was loath to part with it.

There was another strange little store across from Lincoln Center called Locker's Imports. It was a small room basically with a high ceiling. Even back in the 1970s it was the only place I could find a hardshell case for my American Conservatory bowlback -- my first mandolin. They seemd to carry all sorts of oddball instruments like lutes and theorbos, sort of a small scale Lark in the Morning.

I could go on and on about the stores that are no longer... but I won't..

Jim

billkilpatrick
Feb-27-2004, 7:58am
i used to live at lincoln towers. i remember them filming some scenes from "westside story" on a pile of bricks near there. where you from?...

there was a walk-up music store midway between b'way and westend ave on 72nd; talk about odorous adventurelands. from time to time i come across items on ebay that claim to be taken from the backroom of an old music shop that's going out of business. i get goose bumps.

ciao, paesano - bill

ps - did you ever, in your entire life... come across anyone wanting to sell you an instrument that didn't know what he was on about?

Jim Garber
Feb-27-2004, 9:15am
ps - did you ever, in your entire life... come across anyone wanting to sell you an instrument that didn't know what he was on about?
Not sure what you mean by the above...

I used to live on 72nd Street for a few years in the late 1970s. What was the name of that music store?

Jim

billkilpatrick
Feb-27-2004, 10:36am
haven't a clue what the name of the shop was. i left ny in '66.

re: instrument sales - with all the instruments i've bought over the years, i don't think i've ever paid for what you would call a bargin. people have been extremely generous to me over the years and have given me some really lovely instruments out of the kindness of their hearts (a beautiful, sweet sounding, egyptian oud, for one and a pre-war gibson j45 guitar for another) but the tell-tale trickle of drool that runs down my chin and the glazed look i get in my eye whenever i see something that i really, really don't think i can live without alerts whoever it is that's standing there before me holding the chosen object of my desire that here before him stands a genuine, one born every minute, "this guy will pay anything..." variety of sucker. i'm much better at it now but at first, ebay was hell...

actually, that's not entirely true. the charangos i've bought from bolivia.mall have all been worth it. even the cheap ones sound good. when you compare those with what you could get for the same amount of money for some laminated piece of whatsit' from china, there's no comparison.

happy is the man who finds his instrument.

ciao - bill

John Zimm
Mar-01-2004, 9:03am
Wow, the stories of New York and the old time shops there seem far away from my upbringing in Northern Wisconsin, out in the country on a little dairy farm. A big adventure in those days was driving to Berger Hardware in Superior, which had three basements and as many floors above ground full to the ceiling with every sort of treasure. I was more interested in other things then, so I sadly have no stories to tell of any treasures hidden in Berger's store. Sadly, Mr. Berger died a few years ago, and I don't believe his store is still in operation.

On that note, I've been out of town the past couple of days, saying goodbye to the old home place which was sold on Friday, the 27th. I guess the global marketplace has made small farms unprofitable too, so I guess in ways New York City and Iron River, Wisconsin aren't too far apart.

-John.

AlanN
Mar-01-2004, 9:35am
Another "bargain-in-the-basement" yarn:

Time: Mid 70's
Place: Chicago Music Store, Tucson, AZ

Old-style store on a downtown corner, had stuff crammed in every corner. Had mandolins piled up in one section, mostly A-styles, some old ones. Had a brown 50's style case with the pink lining, maybe an A-4 inside. I asked about the case, he wanted $50 and wouldn't move on that price. I passed on it, last one I saw for sale went for $300.

And they say youth is wasted on the young...:D

Jim Garber
Mar-01-2004, 10:18am
There was a music store in Mahwah (no kidding!), NJ called Robbie's Music. It was still open prob 7 years ago. It was this huge barn located on a commercial strip of Rte 17.

I walked into it one day and in one corner or the store were some old wooden and glass cases. In these were a bunch of old lap steels, tiples and tenor guitars. On the floor of the showroon were the usual Pac rim merchandise, so it was odd to see this stuff. I asked a salesman how much a guitar was and he quoted a rather high price. It tunred out that these were all part of the owner's collection.

In another part of the store, i found new old stock books like a Nick Lucas guitar method and few boks published in the 1950s with prices like $1.25. I took a few to the counter and the clerk rang them up with the listed price.

I went back there with this odd little banjo I had that i wanted a case for. This time the ownser helped me out. he was a ornery guy but I happened to catch him at the right time. I said I needed a case for this banjo. He told me to wait a minute and he went up to the attic and came down with a dusty old brown case which it tunred out was meant for a 1940s Gibson lap steel. I think he sold it to me for about $40. I told him that I had taken lessons from Roy Smeck and he brightened up and showed me his mint condition 40s Gibson steel.

I heard tales of what else was in that attic. I went back a few more times to see if I could find out but the man was either not there or in a bad mood. One time he yelled at me for looking in the file cabinets where all the music was kept, since that was supposed to be off limits.

I never found out what happened to the old stock of that store, but likely it was bought up by some larger store, no longer to be seen.

Jim

Bob A
Mar-01-2004, 11:51am
It's been decades since I've been to NYC, and life has changed. (Let no new thing arise). I remember buying kosher dill pickles out of a barrel on the street. The guy tossed in a handful of crushed garlic cloves, to my delight. My dad owned a restaurant and bought sliced dill pickle chips in 40 gallon wooden barrels. Can't be done any more - everything comes in plastic pails, like drywall cement. Go ahead with that thought, you're right, the taste follows the container.

Weiser's book store on B'way sold me a few books by Aleister Crowley, England's Worst Man. They're gone too, though I still believe that you can buy anything that exists, SOMEwhere in NYC.

While the EU is busily mandating the homogenisation of taste throughout Europe (and I understand the Italians, bless them, are resisting the "sanitary" changes that result in destroying the individual character of foodstuffs), there is still hope. For example, the old wooden chopping blocks whose removal was mandated by the Sanitation Police a few decades ago are coming back. It was found that bacteria were able to proliferate on the sanitary plastic cutting boards to a far greater degree than on the old wooden ones. Who'd'a thunk that our ancestors would have been able to survive without the Board of Purity watching over them?

Perhaps my particular bent towards foodstuffs is not in keeping with the thread, but remember that, in the mandoworld, appreciation of bowlbacks is very much a matter of taste. (Sole explicit mando content).

After visiting one of those old shops which seem left over from another age, I've had dreams where I'd wander thru a door into a vast, unsuspected and constantly changing labyrinthine Storehouse of Wonders, with the sun sparking dust motes as its rays lit the odd corners where things I'd never imagined were to be found. On waking, I was left with melancholy longing for places that are more Real than this somewhat tawdry plane of existence.

I hope to find you all there one day, as we search for our heart's desires.

vkioulaphides
Mar-01-2004, 3:34pm
Oh, Bob... I could trail off from any one of SO many points you bring up! The closest to a mass upheaval we have had in Greece was when the EU tried to ban the traditional kokoretsi, a cylinder built around a large skewer, made of lamb livers and other entrails, wrapped up in, well, gut. A distasteful idea to some, naturally, but something darn near a constitutional right in Greece: Easter Sunday would be no more than another spring day without it! Needless to say, I would only have it in taverns/restaurants I can trust, or better yet, make it myself at home. Still, the culinary libertarian in me rebels at the thought of a supranational bureaucracy telling me what I may or may not eat, at my cost, at my risk.

Or: My last trip to the Corinthian gulf, I went to a local butcher-shop. Obviously, you don't shop without chatting— that would be plain uncivilized. Once the butcher heard me say that I live in the States, he recoiled as if I had caught him committing some heinous crime. "Oh", he said blushing, pointing at his (wooden, of course) chopping block "in America, you'd have me arrested for this, no?" "Not quite", said I, "at least not I myself." On my way out, thanking him at his doorstep and wishing him and his family well for the season, I asked where the meat I had just bought had come from. Shrugging, he smiled, nodded back and said "My own farm... slaughtered this morning... Bye!"

On mando content: I have found that some stores are almost embarrassed to have a couple of those, err... old, whad'ya-call-'em, eh, stringy-thingies, etc. in some back vault. To wit: While shiny, brand new electric guitars may garnish the storefront, a friendly, solicitous chat may gain access to the portals of said vaults/basements/attics. See you all there! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jim Garber
Feb-03-2005, 5:49pm
Well, I was back in NY for another business meeting. I have to say that since my last visit the mandolin-related items have diminished.

First Patelsons: the mandolin section has shrunk considerably since I was there last. I know Victor was there lats week and got that Scarlatti book/. There was another copy there, for those who are interested, but I did pass on it.

I did get a nice easy set of duets ("Allemande und Menuette" by Leone of Naples (Victor... session #2 coming?) and a copy of Suite und Variationen für Mandoline Solo by Theodor Hlouschek.

Then I went down to my old haunts on 48th Street to see what they had. Rudy's Music, which usually has a few choice instruments had basically what i saw there last time less quite a few: one 1960's F5 (nice to play but little volume); a Gibson A9 (nothing all that great but better than the old F5); a kentucky 675 (surprisingly better than both at much less money); and a two point Rigel, which was all right but expensive.

The other stores had almost nothing except for a couple of fenders and Epiphones. Disappointing.

Jim

vkioulaphides
Feb-04-2005, 9:20am
[QUOTE]"since my last visit the mandolin-related items have diminished... I know Victor was there..."

Cause and effect, my friend! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

As for "Session #2"... we MUST!

Jim Garber
Feb-04-2005, 9:46am
Ah, Victor, so you cleaned out the mandolin section. You only mentioned the Scarlatti. What other treasures did you uncover?

Jim

Mandobar
Feb-14-2005, 6:17pm
jim,

robbies was still on route 17 a few years back and there is also a robbies on route 46. lots of musicians used to hang out there.

many of the stores near carnegie hall are gone, including ponte's. although most of ponte's double reed section is alive and well and living in north conway, new hampshire with brian charles and his wife. it is run out of an old victorian house now.