Lyon and Healy Mandola on Antiques Roadshow [Archive]

mrmando

Mar-25-2013, 9:03pm

Well, I have No. 1500. Mr. Bonsey (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/appraisers/david-bonsey/) needs to do a little more homework ... these are scarce, but I'm confident that more than 10 of them exist. I can name 5 people besides myself who have one.

Cedar neck? Not likely.

Hard rubber headplate? It's really vulcanized fiber, but "rubber" is a common mistake.

Appraisal is a wee bit generous given the missing pickguard and tailpiece cover, but it's not off by an order of magnitude.

If Style A stands for Artist, what do Styles B and C stand for?

Only a nutjob would try to play bluegrass on one of these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DalZ25LIJ6c

Jim Garber

Mar-26-2013, 9:20am

I never understand how a person who is an expert feels a compunction to make blind, unsupported statements on little than conjecture. He did not have to say they he thought there were only 10 made. If that is the case and Martin knows of 6 than between the two of us, we know all ten of them. :-)

mrmando

Mar-26-2013, 1:54pm

He did not have to say they he thought there were only 10 made. If that is the case and Martin knows of 6 than between the two of us, we know all ten of them. :-)
I dunno ... your group and mine may overlap by 1 or 2 people.

Jim Garber

Mar-26-2013, 2:36pm

I dunno ... your group and mine may overlap by 1 or 2 people.

That is certainly true... I can think of one or two. Then again, some of my best friends are mandolists. There were actually at least two L&H mandolas at one time in the New York Mandolin Orchestra, when I was in it.

Charles E.

Mar-26-2013, 6:50pm

I think Mr. Bonsey was shooting from the hip and missed.

Eddie Sheehy

Mar-26-2013, 7:36pm

Shooting from the hip and hit his foot... which was in his mouth...

mrmando

Mar-26-2013, 8:06pm

Charles E.

Mar-26-2013, 8:50pm

Good points,thanks Martin.

Bill Clements

Mar-26-2013, 9:09pm

Here's one that sold for $7110.00 in 2009.
https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2477/lots/6
I'd say his estimate was not only in the ballpark but on home plate.

mrmando

Mar-26-2013, 9:25pm

That is No. 2, the same one that he says sold for $6K. The $7.11K price must include the premium!

mrmando

Mar-26-2013, 9:32pm

Here's a thread from a year and a half ago with photos of the No. 4 Style A mandola belonging to ruddym:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?79440-Lyon-and-Healy-Style-A-mandola&highlight=lyon+healy+mandola

So Nos. 2, 4, and 5 have all made more-or-less public appearances in the past 4 years.

I should note that we established that No. 4 has PAT. APLD. FOR stamped on both the pickguard and the tailpiece, meaning that it can't be any later than 1918. I would bet that the same holds true for Nos. 2 and 5, which would mean that Mr. Bonsey is off by a couple of years in his estimate of the date on both instruments.

Bill Clements

Mar-26-2013, 10:19pm

Thanks for the reference to that thread, Martin.
Interesting and very informative!

Timbofood

Mar-27-2013, 7:33am

Sorry I missed it! I see so many things "appraised" on this show which I have a hard time believing values. Some things I simply can't the high value, some others the low values. Not that I claim to be the "Expert" but, I am still waiting for someone to whip out a checkbook and, REALLY make someone's day!

jaycat

Mar-27-2013, 8:13am

Timbo, what is the instrument in your avatar? I've owned a few Guilds but never seen a logo like that.

Jim Garber

Mar-27-2013, 8:41am

Golly, fellas. He was in the ballpark, at least. It looks to me like he checked Skinner's records and saw that his employer sold one for $6K a few years back, and he didn't find any other information, so he went with what he knew generally about L&Hs. He made several small mistakes, but he did get most of the important stuff right, or pretty close. When you're in charge of instruments for Skinner you must see a lot of them ... it's hard to be completely spot-on for everything that comes your way, especially when it's something as scarce as a Style A mandola. Evidently this is only the second one he's seen in the past five years (although that's two more than a lot of people see). I'm happy to correct his errors but I don't think they reflect badly on him.

I am am certainly willing to give him some slack but, hey, he is an expert. Most of us here are amateurs, this guy is paid to know all that stuff. I wonder how much prep work these folks do before making their assessments on that show. Are they shown the items and then have some time to call people or do some Internet searches. I guess I just have more respect for people, experts or not, who are willing to say that they are not sure or that they don't know than experts who must make pronouncements based on guessing. I know he just said he thought that there were only maybe 10 of these made and that wasn't a solid statement but still... why bring that up at all, just say, it is rather rare.

I think I was more surprised that he did not mention that the pickguard and talipiece cover was missing and that would somewhat impact the value.

BTW has anyone looked in Hubert's book to see if there is any mention of the number of mandolas made.

Timbofood

Mar-27-2013, 10:25am

Jaycat, that's a 1976 Guild D-25M the inlay work was done by a close friend about three years later, one day if everyone on the cafe sends me 25 bucks for my birthday (you never know what will work) I will sell a kidney to add to it and have him build me a mandolin!
Thanks for asking, I especially like the "hanging dot" on the I.
He did an overlay on it too, then I put the gold Schallers on. No, I did the machines before.
As far as I know, it's the only one like it. There's a really nice yellow rose of Texas under it. Top flight work. One day I will shoot a pic of that too.

jaycat

Mar-27-2013, 10:40am

That is really sweet. I played a 1960 D-25M for years until last fall when I was burglarized and that was the last I saw of it. (Interestingly, they left behind my 1915 Gibson A and Guild T-50).

I bought a Taylor with the insurance money, and have played various Martins, etc. but nothing sounds as sweet to my ears as that old Guild did!

mrmando

Mar-27-2013, 10:59am

I guess I just have more respect for people, experts or not, who are willing to say that they are not sure or that they don't know than experts who must make pronouncements based on guessing.
Fair enough. He certainly didn't have to make things up (cedar neck, A for Artist, only 10 made) ... in a sense, the small fictions detract from the big facts.

I'm certain that the appraisers are given time for a little research before they tape a segment, but in the case of L&H dolas there isn't a lot of data to find, other than the 2009 Skinner sale. There are more Loar H5s for sale right now than L&H dolas. I took mine off the block when I sold one of my other mandolas. I'd prefer to keep it if I can.

BTW has anyone looked in Hubert's book to see if there is any mention of the number of mandolas made.
In this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?64546-Lyon-amp-Healy-Style-A-mandola-1500), Hubert does say he thinks there were fewer than 1500. In other words, the four serial numbers we know (2, 4, 5 and 1500) indicate two separate batches, not a continuous stream. Mine might well be the first of the second batch.

Anyone know of other serial numbers? Dawg has a chocolate brown one, which became the basis for the recent Eastman copies. I saw that one before he bought it, when it was for sale by Pioneer Music in Portland, but I don't recall the serial number.

Here is a transcript of the Antiques Roadshow segment with photos of the mandola. According to this, the segment was taped on June 23, 2012:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201202A12.html

Timbofood

Mar-27-2013, 11:20am

Jaycat, speaking of guitar theft, while the inlay was being done, I had been loaned the craftsman's Martin D-18 (196835) which was stolen from my house. A concerned word never passed his lips about it, just kind of a "These things happen" and not a peep in all the subsequent years. So, should that guitar show up, I know who an earlier owner is.

Jim Garber

Mar-27-2013, 11:31am

Part of the confusion with these L&H mandolins is that they changed both the serial numbering (a few times IIRC) and the brand names. I have a later pro A but it has a Washburn label, not L&H. I am not sure what the reasoning was but someone made those decisions, prob just to toy with our 21st century brains.

Bill Clements

Mar-27-2013, 11:44am

Jim, I've been in the musical instrument sales business for nearly 33 years, and it is not uncommon for instrument manufacturers to change model names without changing the instrument physically. It all has to do with presenting a fresh face. For example, Selmer (now owned by Steinway) started calling their student model trumpets, "Bundy," then switched to "Bach," and now they are known as "Soloist." Serial numbers sequence and length have also changed. Talk about confusing! Another thing that has sadly changed, is WHERE these instruments are now manufactured, but that's a topic for a different thread I suppose!

To the show's credit, they highlighted a cool instrument to say the least!

Jim Garber

Mar-27-2013, 12:47pm

I checked with my friend who has #14.

mrmando

Mar-27-2013, 1:59pm

Ha! Well, that's evidence of there being more than 10, surely.

Rob M.

Mar-29-2013, 10:25pm

I met with the appraiser, David of Skinner-Boston last month in Orlando, where he selected my Lyon & Healy, Model C, for Skinner's upcoming musical instruments auction, April 28th. He seemed like a very kind person. I did clarify for him the vulcanized "fiber" issue, when he said "rubber" & also that these L & H models seemed to be favored more by classical rather than bluegrass players.

I never did get a tailpiece cover (Sorry Martin, just too expensive!), but otherwise in great shape & all original including beautiful violet velvet-corduroy interior in rather shopworn leather hard-wood case.

BTW- Did anyone catch the Model C that was auctioned off last month in an estate sale? It had everything except the pick guard & ended up selling for only $750. It didn't show up on Google until the 5th page of the search, so I don't think many people saw the auction announcement.

Rob

mrmando

Mar-30-2013, 1:10am

You mean this one?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/16051255_vintage-lyon-and-healy-style-c-mandolin

f5loar

Mar-30-2013, 10:20pm

Its missing the tailpiece cover as well. I was also disturbed about the comment about the bluegrass conection...I don't see it. Any way the lady has a very nice L&H style A Mandola. Good for her.
Of late I've seen for many years Wayne Benson playing several songs on his Tucker mandola with IIITimeOut. And of late I've seen Ronnie McCoury sporting his mandola on a few songs with Del. Dry Branch Fire Squad does a few mandola numbers. Before it was stolen Pete Rowan would be seen with his Gibson H5 in bluegrass settings. Jesse McReynolds was using his electric Kent mandola on his instrumental LP from the mid 60's. In the mid 80's Jesse commented on my use of a mandola on an LP with Garland Shuping & Wild Country. Tim'OBrien has certainly featured one. And most recent the cafe's on Evan Reilly has been sporting a newer Gibson A mandola at bluegrass jam sessions in the Asheville area. I'd say there has long been a bluegrass connection that continues today.

sgarrity

Mar-30-2013, 11:19pm

Don't forget Mike Compton playing his Duff H5. It sounds good to me!

OldGus

Mar-31-2013, 9:33am

I think Charles means that the L&H mandolas in specific are not known for being Bluegrass instruments, not mandolas in general. Sean, your Heiden sounds great on both the slow and fast songs you posted with it, I'm sure it's great for both Classical and Bluegrass.

lowtone2

Mar-31-2013, 9:59am

You mean this one?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/16051255_vintage-lyon-and-healy-style-c-mandolin

the auction winner made some quick money.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Circa-1920-Washburn-Lyon-Healy-Style-C-Mandolin-Extremely-Rare-/261189647301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd01dbbc5#ht_358wt_1279

mrmando

Mar-31-2013, 5:17pm

I'd say there has long been a bluegrass connection that continues today.
Don't forget Tom Rozum's blacktop H2, "Nelson"...

Mark O'Connor's son, Forrest, has some videos of him doing singer/songwriter stuff with an L&H Style A mandola. Folk singer Jerry Rasmussen claims to have one, but he also says it doesn't have a scroll headstock. There were no Style B or C mandolas AFAIK, so I am not sure that what Jerry has is a mandola at all.

Jim Garber

Mar-31-2013, 8:14pm

BTW- Did anyone catch the Model C that was auctioned off last month in an estate sale? It had everything except the pick guard & ended up selling for only $750. It didn't show up on Google until the 5th page of the search, so I don't think many people saw the auction announcement.

the auction winner made some quick money.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Circa-1920-Washburn-Lyon-Healy-Style-C-Mandolin-Extremely-Rare-/261189647301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd01dbbc5#ht_358wt_1279

That one is missing the original bridge and looks pretty scratched up. The eBay buyer overpaid a lot IMHO.

allenhopkins

Mar-31-2013, 11:27pm

...I'd say there has long been a bluegrass connection that continues today.

Steve Smith, mandola, on Tundra with Cloud Valley (http://www.ibiblio.org/hillwilliam/BGdiscography/?v=fullrecord&albumid=1977) (Missy Raines on bass).

lowtone2

Apr-01-2013, 8:21am

That one is missing the original bridge and looks pretty scratched up. The eBay buyer overpaid a lot IMHO.

I agree. Seller bought for $750 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/16051255_vintage-lyon-and-healy-style-c-mandolin )and apparently sold for $2K.

Rob M.

Apr-01-2013, 8:08pm

Pretty amazing-And there were only 3 bidders, with the final bidder entering on the day before the auction. The buyer could have taken the tailpiece cover & sold the leftover bones for a Grand. Personally, I think the auctioneer (private estate sale) did the family disfavor by not evaluating the instrument- it had a minimum of only $250. On the other hand, there were hundreds of lots in the auction.

I'm wondering what "condition" you all would consider the finish on this model? there is obvious age & use wear, but also what looks like salt water or mildew damage? Is this "fair" or "poor" or "good"? Not talking about the fact that its missing the pickguard or the damage to bridge. Thanks.

Jim Garber

Apr-02-2013, 8:37am

Not damage to the bridge... non-original bridge. Here are a couple of pics.

lowtone2

Apr-02-2013, 10:51am

Looks to me like half of the back might have been replaced. That could be just wear, i'm not sure.

Jim Garber

Apr-02-2013, 11:07am

Sorry.. I was wrong... there is an original bridge and Rob is correct that there is damage to it.

Rob M.

Apr-02-2013, 6:00pm

I guess the back of the C Mandolins were made with both a solid piece of maple or a split match.

Paul Kotapish

Apr-03-2013, 2:36pm

Kind of an interesting discussion on the scarcity and value of L&H mandolins here: http://www.mandozine.com/resources/VDRT/

Harry West confirms the notion that in the the L&H nomenclature, "A" stands for Artist.

Haven't seen a contemporaneous document--a vintage L&H catalog--to back that up, but I wouldn't toss out the assertion outright.

mrmando

Apr-03-2013, 2:46pm

I don't see anything about "Artist" in Hubert's book at a quick glance. I'll check the label on my mandola.

I would take Harry's remark about "Artist" with a grain of salt, given that he goes on to say this:

The Lyon and Healy model A (A for artist, i.e. top of their line) mandolins as well as the models B and C were indeed popular with mandolin orchestra musicians, early on. This was until Gibson commenced their campaign to conquer the market.
That just isn't close to being accurate. L&H didn't start selling carved mandolins until 1917, when Gibson was already well established in the market. I guess this interview was published before Hubert's book came out, but still, the information was there in old Washburn catalogs for Harry and anyone else to find. If Harry doesn't know when L&H started making these mandolins, that means he hasn't looked at those catalogs, which casts suspicion on his claim about "Artist."

If anyone does have an old L&H ad or catalog page which establishes that A=Artist, I would of course be glad to see it.

Just noticed that Hubert sez only A and B mandolins had the pull-out rest. But I actually have a C mandolin that has one. (OK, that's really off topic.)

Jim Garber

Apr-03-2013, 8:02pm

I have a few of the early 20's L&H catalogs and none call the A an artist model. the closest we get is referring to "Artistic scroll head" as one of the features. I have been called that at times. :)

Just to keep on Martin's derailment of this thread, I have an Washburn A model that doesn't have the pull-out rest. BTW I also have a late catalog where the model is called the Deluxe.

mrmando

Apr-04-2013, 1:05am

Yes, in 1925 the Style C became the 5282 "Aristocrat" and the Style A became the 5283 "Deluxe." The label on my Style A mandola doesn't say anything about "Artist."

The pull-out rests were pretty short-lived. We have three Style A's in our orchestra and I don't think any of them have a pull-out rest. It's just that when Hubert wrote the book he evidently wasn't aware of any Style C with a pull-out rest. There's at least one.

ollaimh

Apr-17-2013, 10:15am

great quote mr clements!! to me justy seeing a lyon and healy mandola is a delight! old cboms are rare treasures. marc silber has a few Larson's in his store/museum. years ago he was nice enough to let me play a few. that's a special experiemce and an honour.

at a Toronto sessuin an irish guy showed up once with a vega mandola, also rarer than a mandolin. with the cylinder back.

th emado band was great here as well. however to my cape Breton warped ear that sounded awfull close to blue grass--I bet that will make me a target for a few lectures. forgive me, American folk kinda all sounds the same to moi. nonetheless what treasure!! a land h mandola, I have found a few treasures on my busking/gig trips back in my road days but nothing quite like that.

my favourite find remains my 1924 Gibson snake head, rode hard but a cannon. a completely different sound than most gibsons.

I do agree the road show expert wasn't as expert as they thought, but they made a decent stab, and their pricing is probably low. who would sell an instrument like that? you would have to inherit it nowadays.

mrmando

Apr-17-2013, 11:26am

th emado band was great here as well. however to my cape Breton warped ear that sounded awfull close to blue grass
It was Bill Monroe's "Bluegrass Stomp" ... it definitely was meant to sound awful close to bluegrass.

I do agree the road show expert wasn't as expert as they thought, but they made a decent stab, and their pricing is probably low. who would sell an instrument like that? you would have to inherit it nowadays.
I dunno, mine has a headstock repair and I tried to sell it for $4K. I got three nibbles but it did not move. I've taken it off the block for now.

ollaimh

Apr-18-2013, 10:06pm

yes yes yes , but what a beauty , what a find. those old vintage mandolas are hard to find. marc silber in Berkley had a few Larson bros instruments, including a five course mandola. he was kind enough to let me play it. a very special instrument. a sessuin player in Toronto showed up with a cylinder back early vegas mandola, another lovely mandola. I suspect that lyon healy would beat them all!!. so I don't case they didn't get it all right, it's just a pleasure to see.