More National Resonator Questions

[neil argonaut]

I've been looking into getting a National RM-1 resonator mandolin, and after looking through all the many threads on this instrument, there's still a few questions I've got; The main reason I was thinking of one is I plan to go traveling, busking along the way, and when I've done this before, volume was always one of the main issues. However, being on the road would mean only being able to have one mandolin, so it would have to do me for every situation. What I was wondering was, how suitable is it for playing indoors / practising without waking neighbours / playing styles other than blues (i e traditional,jazz, italian, tunes with lots of tremolo etc)? Would anyone consider having one as their only mandolin?

At the moment I play a "the loar" LM-520-VS with tonegard. Has anyone got any idea how sound quality (aside from volume) and ease of playing would differ between the two? I'm aware the RM-1 is a far more expensive instrument, but wonder how much of this is more down to the resonator than the mandolin itsself; or to put it another way, how would it compare quality wise to a non-resonator of the same price?

Also, has anyone much experience of the one with the hotplate pickup? And does it require a preamp, or is it ready just to go in to an amp straight?

I'd love to just try one, but unfortunately the nearest place I can find is TAMCO in brighton at the other end of the country, so I'd like to get as much of an idea how interested I am in it before I take the trip down to try it out. (also, if anyone knows anywhere in Scotland or central London that stocks them, get in touch!)

Thanks.

[JeffD]

The RM-1 can be played softly to good effect. I don't play blues, so yea the RM-1 is good for a lot of things. Everything I do I have done on my RM-1. It might not be your first choice for bluegrass, but it ain't bad either. Everything else works fine.

I wouldn't want it to be my only mandolin, only because I love the sound of my others, but it could certainly be a mandolin that does everything and makes you happy for the rest of your life.

I think the quality is first rate. Right up there.

In addition to being loud, (OMG loud), the RM-1 has a very pretty tone. Not overly brassy or tinny like some of the other resos available. I mean, its a res, so it has to sound somewhat metallic, but among the resos the RM-1 has the most woody solid sound. Its kind of unique.

I have seen the hotplate pickup and I cannot figure out why anyone would amplify it. It is so loud I can be heard over electric instruments in a folk rock jam. Its so loud I can turn the head of a goose across the pond. And its a big pond.

For a busking mandolin it is ideal. Not just because its loud, though being heard in the subway is an issue, but also because it looks so darn cool. Its not just another mandolin.

Its the steampunk mandolin. Wear a top hat and aviator glasses, an Edwardian frock coat, or at least a vest, and that mandolin, and you will turn heads. For added effect (I have done this), put two digital tuners on the head stock, and a bright colored Kyser capo.

I have heard that some folks had an issue with the action being too high, but a competent person can lower the action and set it up for you if that is the case. Mine was all set and very playable when I picked it up.

[neil argonaut]

Thanks a lot for a very informative post; exactly the kind of info I was after. So how do you play it softly? Just picking softly or using a different plectrum? This was one concern, as for every place before I couldn't play due to not being loud enough, there was another where I probably got away with not being moved ojn due to having a soft instrument, and in certain situations, i e where people are eating outside, you don't want to be intrusive soundwise. I don't particularly like or find easy playing with soft plectrums, but if need be I will i suppose.

As for the hotplate, it's more to have the flexibility if I end up in a gig situation with an amplified band on a stage.

[Shelagh Moore]

Hi Neil,

I live in Central Scotland and, if you're nearby, we could meet up and you could try mine (which is the brass version without hotplate).

No you don't need a preamp for the hotplate pick-up... it's a hand-wound humbucker and plenty powerful.

I'd second what JeffD says about the sound.... which isn't harsh at all and makes the RM-1 quite versatile. One thing I do really like is that I can play lightly and with greater expressiveness and still easily be heard in a group setting. I don't use a very heavy plectrum... an Ultex .73 (which is reasonably stiff) and the inherent volume of the RM-1 means I can get a broad range of dynamics from it.

BTW, the quality of build is excellent and National are a very helpful company if you need a spare part from them. I did lower the action on mine a little from new but it was a simple enough job.

[neil argonaut]

Hi Neil,

I live in Central Scotland and, if you're nearby, we could meet up and you could try mine (which is the brass version without hotplate).

No you don't need a preamp for the hotplate pick-up... it's a hand-wound humbucker and plenty powerful.

I'd second what JeffD says about the sound.... which isn't harsh at all and makes the RM-1 quite versatile. One thing I do really like is that I can play lightly and with greater expressiveness and still easily be heard in a group setting. I don't use a very heavy plectrum... an Ultex .73 (which is reasonably stiff) and the inherent volume of the RM-1 means I can get a broad range of dynamics from it.

BTW, the quality of build is excellent and National are a very helpful company if you need a spare part from them. I did lower the action on mine a little from new but it was a simple enough job.

Thanks a lot, I'm not sure if or when I'll be in the Stirlingshire area, but it's certainly a lot closer to Glasgow than brighton!

[Shelagh Moore]

I'm near Falkirk but am sometimes down to Glasgow for one thing or another!

[Ray(T)]

I've had my RM-1 for over three years and although I love it, it isn't my "go to" mandolin purely because I find that it sounds better played with other instruments than on its own. You can alter the sound by using flat wound rather than bronze strings and the RM-1 is likely to be significantly more durable on the road than most "normal" mandolins.

I doubt you' find one any closer to Scotland than TAMCO unless someone is selling one used.

[liestman]

I agree with Jeff and Richard. Probably when I think about it, if I had to pick one mandolin only, it would be my RM1. I play mostly in Irish trad sessions, where my mandolins that are my favorites by themselves or in small groups get lost. Yes you can play them quietly by just picking softly and they sound really nice that way. To my ear, using flatwound strings (Jazzmando) takes the metallic sound away and makes them much nicer for private playing but still enough power to play with a large acoustic group. Get one! You will like it!!!

[Jim Garber]

I don't own one but I have played a few of them of the last few years and they are on my want list. The main thing is that they are not only loud but they sound great too. I would say you could play just about anything on one, tho, of course, you will get stinkeye from the most trad bluegrasser.

The only 2 caveats I would say is that they are loud (a plus and a minus) and I am not so sure that you would not wake the neighbors tho you could try muting it somewhat. I tried one at Mandolin Brothers and they told me to keep the volume down when I was playing in few rooms away from where they were. The other thing is that esp for travel, they are heavier than a standard mandolin.

BTW I bet TAMCO could send you one and it might be worth it to pay the shipping back if you don't like it. My guess would be you would keep it.

[JeffD]

Yes they are heavier than a standard mandolin. It can be a little disconcerting if you are used to lugging regular mandolins around. But if you have lugged a guitar around in a hard case, you willl laugh at us thinking the RM-1 is heavy.

[neil argonaut]

Well the weight was another factor I was thinking of, as when traveling every extra gram seems to make a difference, and previously I've used a soft gig bag, but if I'm going to be spending the best part of 2 grand (the other reason I'm unsure!) then I'll prob want it protected by a hard case regardless of the added inconvenience.
I know people like them for Irish sessions, but to be honest, I'm normally quite happy blending in and not being heard too much! It would certainly be motivation to keep trying to improve!

[Ryk Loske]

Neil,

I don't own an RM-1 but have played one owned by another band member. I like them ... they can be loud .. easily .. but you can turn the volume down with your right hand.

Here's an RM-1 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMX66fGRHdY

Here's Mike Dowling talking about the Hot Plate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DfzouZEvx4

Hope this helps,

Ryk

[neil argonaut]

Thanks a lot to everyone who replied to this thread, and especially to Richard for letting me try his national. I'm now sold, and should be getting one shortly, only decision left is whether the hotplate is worth the slight increase in price and slight decrease in appearance.

[Michael Eck]

I just caught this thread. Very exciting. I think you will be thrilled. Welcome to the family.

[JeffD]

My thoughts are that the hotplate is not worth it. And it does detract, (I think) from the looks. If you absolutely have to be louder than it is acoustically you can always mike it.

I think you will love it, and wonder how you ever got along with out it. That was my experience anyway.

[neil argonaut]

My thoughts are that the hotplate is not worth it. And it does detract, (I think) from the looks. If you absolutely have to be louder than it is acoustically you can always mike it.

I think you will love it, and wonder how you ever got along with out it. That was my experience anyway.

Yeah, I tend to agree about the looks, and in general I prefer the sound of a miked instrument, but I'm planning to do a lot of traveling with it, and it would be good to have something I could just plug in and play wherever needed in any situation that requres it, without having to worry about carrying extra equipment, about feedback, about wind if outside etc.

[Ryk Loske]

Neil,

In discussions with Catfish Keith about amplifying Nationals he strongly prefers the Highlander to the Hotplate. In his opinion it produces a much more acoustic tone and is unobtrusive.

Ryk

[John Eischen]

The Highlander produces a sound comparable to a good mic, and is designed to plug into a PA or acoustic amp. The Hotplate is like a tele neck pickup, and you can play it through a guitar amp. Mike Dowling demos a Hotplate on Youtube, but states that he uses it with a mic to add the acoustic sound. I have the Highlander in four resonators, one also has a Chandler lipstick pickup and a blend knob. If I accidentally turned up the Highlander while going through a tube amp it would feed back. So, it comes down to the application: acoustic or electric.

Rick Turner (posts here sometimes) developed the Highlander with Bob Wolstein around 20 years ago. Rick also developed Alembic, Lindsay Buckingham's guitars, Renaissance Guitars, and puts on mandolin building camps.

[neil argonaut]

Thanks a lot, I hadn't heard of Highlander pickups before now, but have been looking into them and it looks like it's the best option. It's also good because I can go ahead and get the RM-1 now and then add the pickup once I've got the money, rather than having to buy both at once.

[mandroid]

How many Kgm does one of those weigh?

[Spruce]

In addition to being loud, (OMG loud), the RM-1 has a very pretty tone.

Yeah, that's my main "complaint" with the RM-1... :)

I really want a resonator mandolin that sounds like a reso on tape, and I'm thinking this thing sounds too good...
Or, at least every one I've played, and that's been about a dozen now...

I still want one though, and I'm thinking I can use a screwy mic to get it to sound like it looks...

But, damn these things sound like a really loud sweet mandolin to my ears...
Which is a good thing for a lot of settings...

[oldwave]

I had National make a custom model for me (now a standard model in maple!). The upgrades were ebony pegged over lay and the national emblem in abalone and a high gloss flamed maple body and neck. These mandolins are very versatile and the dynamic range is incredible. You can play them whisper quiet and the get louder until the strings would break. It's all about control of your right hand. I haved used this mandolin in many types of jams from old time to swing jazz. The tonality is also quite variable by moving up and down the strings with your pick location, by the bridge for penetrating tone and over the board for sweet. Higher recommend these mandolins. Bear in mind that the finger board length is less than a f model if you play very high. I am lucky to have a number of very good mandolins including a vintage National also. The Rm-1 along with my Collings mt-2 are my favorites. The rm-1 is very affordable and I see a few used out there for good prices. Go for it as it is a great travel instrument.

[Spruce]

Would you guess that it's an RM-1 that we're hearing here?:

iGzsym08zw0

Anyone have any recordings of their RM-1 that they might want to share?
I'd especially like to hear something that screams "reso"... ;)

[Dave Hicks]

Nice contrast of mando and playing styles (music starts at 2:25 or so)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuKULWOMsoA

[neil argonaut]

Well thanks to the advice of folk here, plus the fantastic help of Richard and of Trevor at TAMCO, i'm now eagerly awaiting the postman's arrival today. I went for the RM-1 in walnut with no hotplate, and I'll try to post a video sometime soon.

[Shelagh Moore]

Hope it arrives safe and that you really enjoy it as I do mine Neil! That'll be at least four I know of in Scotland now! I also haven't forgotten that you wanted Booth Shot Lincoln and I'll post an mp3 or video shortly with that. Watching Rich DelGrosso on the video above has just reminded me to put his album on while I'm working here at the computer!

All the best,

Richard

[neil argonaut]

Thanks, despite the snow, it arrived safely just there, and is sounding great.
Don't worry about Booth shot lincoln, I found a good video on youtube and have learned it, but thanks again for introducing me to a great tune.

[AnitaM]

In the hopes of not hi-jacking this thread, I'm looking for some advice. First of all, I am a new player (5 mths) and am enjoying the heck out of playing the mandolin - I currently own an Eastman MD305. I have an opportunity to purchase a RM-1 on consignment at my music shop. The mandolin is in pristine condition, probably only played a few times, if that. The story is that this woman's husband bought it so that they can enjoy their retirement playing mandolins together. The day they were set to play, she went to wake him and he had passed in his sleep. Simply heartbreaking. Now, she can't bring herself to play it and has it on consignment. The salesman told me he believes she would like to sell it for $200 (or less) off of what her husband paid - he purchased it at this store and they showed me the receipt. He honestly didn't know what she would take for it.
So, my question to you all is this: even though I'm new and probably won't be able to play this with any great skill for awhile, is this something that I should jump at? I have no idea how often these are sold, or if they hold their value. Or should I save that money and wait for a Weber, Eastman, or perhaps even a Gibson to show up in the classifieds?

[mrmando]

A used RM1 should go for $1,500 to $1,700. (I sold one for $1,400, but I haven't seen one that cheap since ... so I probably should have held out for more dough!)

$200 off the new price is the very smallest discount you should expect. Most new instruments depreciate by at least 10% the moment they leave the shop--because the warranty is usually valid only for the original owner, and anyone who buys the instrument secondhand is not entitled to the protection offered by the warranty. Therefore the instrument has less value.

Make an offer of 80% of the new price. That is the rule of thumb for a secondhand instrument in excellent condition. It should hold its value if you can get it for that amount. If you decide later that a resophonic isn't for you, I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to trade it for a conventional mandolin.

[AnitaM]

Thanks mrmando, that helps a lot. If I made an offer you suggest it would put me in the $1400-1500 range. I also just checked National's website and you are correct in that the warranty only applies to the original owner, so thanks again for the info.

[mandolinlee]

Last Sunday (Apr 28) I was about 20 feet from the stage, with my back to it, in a booth eating lunch when OLDWAVE started to play his. I leaned over my fries and asked my wife, "Is he playing through a microphone?" He wasn't and it had a great tone and a good volume. During the balance of the afternoon, it proved to be a very versatile instrument
I think you will enjoy it, Neil.
Lee.

[vegas]

I would like to have a resonator but don't want to pay the price of an RM-1. What are opinions on Recording Kings?

[dcoventry]

I would like to have a resonator but don't want to pay the price of an RM-1. What are opinions on Recording Kings?

They come up for sale used, so be on point for that.

Also, they are some of the best of the best, why not pay for the quality? Everyone agrees, National is doing a superb job, are they unworthy of the prices?

Please discuss.

[mrmando]

Coupla interesting resos on eBay right now: a Wishnevsky (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wishnevsky-Resonator-Mandolin-Antique-Spruce-Biscuit-Cone-Sweet-and-Loud-/151038950976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232a9f7e40) and a Ron Hyde (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HYDEMADE-ROADSIGN-RESOPHONIC-MANDOLIN-LUTHIER-CRAFTED-IN-USA-MADE-IN-2008-/161018337992?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257d70dac8). I'd jump on either of those before I dreamed of bothering with a Recording King.

[vegas]

They come up for sale used, so be on point for that.

Also, they are some of the best of the best, why not pay for the quality? Everyone agrees, National is doing a superb job, are they unworthy of the prices?

Please discuss.



But I didn't question the price or quality of National mandolins. I asked for an opinion on Recording King. That is a different question, but thanks for playing.

[vegas]

Coupla interesting resos on eBay right now: a Wishnevsky (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wishnevsky-Resonator-Mandolin-Antique-Spruce-Biscuit-Cone-Sweet-and-Loud-/151038950976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232a9f7e40) and a Ron Hyde (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HYDEMADE-ROADSIGN-RESOPHONIC-MANDOLIN-LUTHIER-CRAFTED-IN-USA-MADE-IN-2008-/161018337992?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257d70dac8). I'd jump on either of those before I dreamed of bothering with a Recording King.

OK. There is a direct answer to my question. Thank you very much.

[neil argonaut]

While this thread is busy, might as well update. That's me had it for about a month, and loving the sound of it, and both for busking on the street and playing in pubs, the additional volume makes things so much easier. I've had many people commenting on how nice it sounds and how nice it looks. The only thing is, I do find it a lot harder to play than my "the loar" and do like to go back to that in the house to give my tired fingers a break sometimes. I'm busy now but will try and post a video sometime in the coming weeks.

[liestman]

Neil, sounds like you need to get the action lowered. Mine came quite high at the bridge, but once I got it properly set up (lowered) it is very easy playing indeed.

[Bertram Henze]

Caveat: completely disillusioned ignoramus' rant ahead.

I never had nor played a resonator instrument, just thought they looked cool and used a cool mechanism: take a loudspeaker and replace the magnet with a bridge to move the membrane. Also took for granted that, with all the metallic stuff in there, the bridge and saddle would be made of metal as well, with lots of screws and levers to make setup a simple job for anybody who can handle a wrench (just like it is with a banjo, which I am better acquainted with).
Now I've searched for pictures of what is really under that hand rest, and I am utterly disappointed. The saddle - a raw piece of wood, stuck on top of a spider or a biscuit bridge - that's it? :disbelief:
It's a bit like finding that the starship Enterprise is really driven by a coal furnace.
Suddenly I have a new theory of what the hand rest is really for: hiding the hideous. Feel free to laugh at the shards of my naive belief in technology. :sleepy:

[oldwave]

Simple technology sometimes is the most efficient.

[JeffD]

I would like to have a resonator but don't want to pay the price of an RM-1. What are opinions on Recording Kings?

My opinion, my opinion only:

I tried the Recording Kings, and several others, as they showed up at the music shop. I had no real interest in them, just curious. And they did not really generate any interest for me.

I never would have gotten a resonator if it had not been for the RM-1. I just would not have become interested in a rez. The sound of the others, by comparison, is brassy and strident with no warmth or subtlety. When the RM-1 came out, and I started to hear from people how it sounded and how much folks liked it, I got interested.

So, in my case its not a resonator that I wanted, it was the RM-1.

[liestman]

Bertram, yes but it is a really cool sounding coal furnace!!! ;-)

And I believe the true purpose of the handrest is that if you were to whack the bridge, you could relatively easily crush in the cone. That is what I have been told anyway.

And ditto what Jeff said. I have played others and have no desire to own them, even the old metal bodied Nationals. The RM-1 is just in a class by itself.

[Jim Garber]

RM-1 is on my list and if I ever find one for the right price and when I have the cash I will go for it. BTW the availability seems pretty limited -- there are few around at dealers and also I have noticed that the price has gone up some over the years. According to Mandolin Brothers site: List Price for the antique brass RM-1 (http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/National-RM-1+Resonator+Mandolin/834) (the one I would prefer for looks) is $2500...Their Price is $2,125.00. They currently have a used one (http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/National-RM1+resonator+mandolin-2008/3444) (steel hardware) for $1645

[vegas]

My opinion, my opinion only:

I tried the Recording Kings, and several others, as they showed up at the music shop. I had no real interest in them, just curious. And they did not really generate any interest for me.

I never would have gotten a resonator if it had not been for the RM-1. I just would not have become interested in a rez. The sound of the others, by comparison, is brassy and strident with no warmth or subtlety. When the RM-1 came out, and I started to hear from people how it sounded and how much folks liked it, I got interested.

So, in my case its not a resonator that I wanted, it was the RM-1.

Thank you. There isn't much in the local mandolin selections to play and compare and I know that's true for many people who live outside "mandolin country." Like my board name, I live in Las Vegas where Guitar Center and Sam Ash have the greatest selections and there have been some threads recently about what selections to expect in those places. I haven't even been able to find a local mandolin club so this board is a crucial source of information for myself and many others in similar circumstances. If I have to purchase a mandolin over the internet to see if it's something I'd like, I'd much rather risk under $1,000.00 than $2K plus sight unseen. The more detail people can offer about sound, playability, etc., the more informed my choice will be. My first purchase was a Loar LM-400 and I was ready to move up within a few weeks of having it. I've played guitar for decades and when someone put an early 20th century Gibson A style in my hand, I COULD NOT believe the difference. Anybody want to buy a Loar LM-400 with hard case and pickup?

Simply knocking Chinese made instruments without saying why does not broaden my understanding. I can't walk down the street to a local brick and mortar place to try one out and neither can a lot of others who depend on the Café for information the more experienced have generously shared. The other issue is price. I'm not poor but by no means rich. I have to work for a living. Mandolin has to be a hobby for me. I'll never be good enough to earn my living that way so that determines how much I'm willing to spend on my very satisfying and rewarding hobby.

Have a great weekend, all.

[mrmando]

The Ron Hyde reso on eBay has a Paul Beard cone -- high quality -- and is priced a lot lower than Ron's usual starting bid, because it's secondhand. The unusual look isn't for everyone, I suppose, but if I needed to acquire an instrument instead of needing to get rid of a few dozen, I'd look into it.

[JeffD]

I would never get an RM-1 as my only instrument. It is its own thing. Already having a fantastic mandolin or two, the RM-1 was an additional voice, not a replacement voice. That being said it is my go to mandolin for many applications.

I play in a pick up band for a weekly contra dance. The rez takes the field.

Ragtime - I have several rags I am working on and they just sound so cool on the rez.

OT - I play in a small traditional plus band, and for a lot of the old time tune the rez just makes the difference. (Traditional plus means traditional music plus whatever else we want to play.)

Outdoor parties and jams, nobody beats the rez.


Small ensembles, playing alone, playing classical, indoor jams, my other mandolins are more appropriate.

[KEB]

I just ordered a used one from Acoustic Music Works in Pittsburgh after playing it while in town for the Frozen Four-- wish USPS and UPS moved faster...

[Shelagh Moore]

Now I've searched for pictures of what is really under that hand rest, and I am utterly disappointed. The saddle - a raw piece of wood, stuck on top of a spider or a biscuit bridge - that's it?
It's a bit like finding that the starship Enterprise is really driven by a coal furnace.

Exactly so... a proper steampunk instrument in other words! ;)

[Jim Garber]

Considering that the main source of the tone is the resonator, has anyone been able to A-B the walnut vs. the maple bodied ones? is there a difference?

[Shelagh Moore]

Neil, sounds like you need to get the action lowered. Mine came quite high at the bridge, but once I got it properly set up (lowered) it is very easy playing indeed.

Same here... I did some tweaking at the nut and bridge on mine and likewise improved the action from the original.

[Shelagh Moore]

Considering that the main source of the tone is the resonator, has anyone been able to A-B the walnut vs. the maple bodied ones? is there a difference?

I would have though the back/sides are too thick and heavy to make much of a difference but stand to be corrected by someone who has compared them. For me it would be more aesthetic and I personally prefer the walnut.

[trevor]

I have had both in stock, much as expected, the walnut has a little more warmth, the maple more clarity.

[Rodney Riley]

I have an opportunity to purchase a RM-1 on consignment at my music shop. So, my question to you all is this: even though I'm new and probably won't be able to play this with any great skill for awhile, is this something that I should jump at? Yes you should! Did you? Or should I save that money and wait for a Weber, Eastman, or perhaps even a Gibson to show up in the classifieds? Yes! But after you've enjoyed playing the RM. :))

I've got a Weber, but still long for an RM-1 :redface:

[JeffD]

I've got a Weber, but still long for an RM-1 :redface:

Its funny. I got the RM-1 and thought I now had every mandolin I would ever want.

Two mandolins later. Ahhhhh.

[Bertram Henze]

a proper steampunk instrument

I used to think this steampunk angle was about the looks only. Now that opens a door... check the oil and clean the valves regularly?

101671

[AnitaM]

Rodney, I have not pulled the trigger, YET. When I was at the shop on Friday, it was still hanging on the wall. The owner's asking price is what her late husband had paid and I think it's a bit high considering the warranty is no longer valid. If it's still on the wall the next time I go in, I may make her an offer and see if she's willing to take less money for it.

[Rodney Riley]

Understand. Unless it's a one-off, or a very collectible item, value should be lower than purchased price. Would just order new. :) Watch classifieds here. Some have been listed before.