Where did the "F5", "F4" designators come from? [Archive]

allenhopkins

Feb-05-2013, 12:43am

Where they Gibson designators that everyone just started using?

Yes. Now we take "F-4" to mean "any F-model mandolin with an oval hole," and "F-5" to mean "any F-model mandolin with f-holes" (of course I'm leaving aside the whole raised-fingerboard, extended neck, etc. etc. variations, but you get what I mean).

Gibson, of course, made a whole range of "F" models, with oval holes and f-holes, necks raised or not, from the "plain" F to the F-12. The F-4 and F-5 are the ones most talked about, and are sort of archetypical, but actually it's just a shorthand way of ID-ing mandolins with similar distinguishing characteristics.

f5loar

Feb-05-2013, 2:41am

They started out as no more than model numbers instead of names for their products. Some were used for their price at the time like the RB75 banjo was $75, The RB150 was $150 , The RB250 was $250, the SJ200 guitar was $200, the Super 400 guitar was $400. Why they went from an F5 as the high end model in 1922 and then came out 10 years later with higher nos. F7,F10,F12 as cheaper models is one to ponder on. I'd say from there it just went to pieces and nobody really cared why it was what it was. You had an A5 that was an A body with F holes and long neck in 1923. Then in the late 50's they come out with an A5 with two points and a round hole with a short neck. Then in the 70's the A5 was a lump scroll F body with oval hole and a long neck. Go figure on that one! They had catalogs (as all major instrument makers did) with photos and descriptions and that's how you ordered them. The model number really meant nothing other than how you ordered it.

Fretbear

Feb-05-2013, 4:17am

That's interesting about the selling price/model number correlation on the banjos and guitars.
We could as easily have ended up with an "F-250" (not including Geib case).....

Jim Garber

Feb-05-2013, 10:14am

I believe that the use of list prices for model numbers came about in the 1930s but prior to that the models used the single digits mentioned above. I never did understand the F7, F10 and F12 being lower grades than the F5 either. Gibson was never a logical company like Martin used to be.

Martin was anal about their naming/numbering system but nowadays it, too, has gone off the deep end with models I can't even prionounce or figure out what they mean, like the SWOMGT -- I know what it stands for but what system does that fall into?

sunburst

Feb-05-2013, 10:26am

...We could as easily have ended up with an "F-250"...

I have, in fact, ended up with an F-250 with no case (not even a garage).

Pasha Alden

Feb-05-2013, 10:39am

Hi Allen

Many thanks. I wondered about F4 and F5 but am somewhat nervous of showing any ignorance here and so decided to lurk about till someone answered that question. It is all interesting to hear how Gibson went about business of mandolins.

tmsweeney

Feb-05-2013, 10:47am

going out on a limb here but I believe the "F" stands for florentine - which is the fancy style with the scroll as opposed to the standard A model

Darryl Wolfe

Feb-05-2013, 10:54am

I have, in fact, ended up with an F-250 with no case (not even a garage).

Somebody crushed the tailpiece on my F-150 this morning on the way to work
:grin:

Many folks have always surmised that "F" meant florentine. But if that's the case then what does "A", "H", 'L" and "K" mean....and why didn't they use "B" "D" and "E" and "G" before using "H", "J', "K" and "L" and "O" ????????????

EDIT:...tmsweeney previous post made while posting Hahaha....but I guess it could mean florentine

Marc Woodward

Feb-05-2013, 11:23am

Got a vague recollection that in the early catalogues it referred to the F as standing for Florentine and the A as standing for Artist.

H stood for 'Holy M'lollee that's a big mandolin'. K was 'Krumbs that one's even bigger..!'.
Guitars: O was for Orchestra model and L was 'Lighter than an Orchestra Model'. Can't even remember what a J is (Harp guitar..?? In which case it stands for Jesus loves you I guess...)

;)
Marc

JeffD

Feb-05-2013, 11:39am

Yea, I think the F stands for Florentine, meaning: cooked with spinach.

I could be wrong on that.

OldGus

Feb-05-2013, 11:42am

They designated the models by number, the simplest and cheapest being the A1, then they had the A2, A3, A4, (1)A5 and the fancier "Florentine" models F2, (Did they ever really call them F3's), F4 and F5. As you might expect there are some model gaps on the low end for the fancier "F" line. Definition of Florentine: 1. Of, or relating to, Florence, Italy. 2. Having or characterized by a dull chased or rubbed finish. Used of Gold.; So they used Florentine inspired scrolls and dull hand rubbed finishes on their pinnacle F5 fern model and Florentine inspired Fluer-de-lis on their top end A4's and the A5 which also has a dull hand rubbed finish. In Florentine Fluer-de-lis (Lily) the stamens are always posted between the petals, which they are showing more Italian influence...So basically the F4 and F5 are the designations for the fancier "more Italian" model4 and 5 with more trim and then the F holes.

Bill Halsey

Feb-05-2013, 11:59am

Gibson most often used the word "Style" as a prefix, not "Model" -- i.e., "Style A-4", "Style F-5"; with the letter/number usually hyphenated.

Jim Garber

Feb-05-2013, 12:05pm

I am not sure that Gibson ever called them Florentine in their catalogs. They seem to refer to F-2 and F-54 as Artist models. A quick scan of a catalogs from 1907- 1930s I don't see any mention of the word Florentine in relation to F mandolins or any other instruments with scrolls.

Bill Halsey

Feb-05-2013, 12:24pm

The Florentine banjo literature claimed Florentine designs of the Renaissance period, but is graced with fingerboard scenes of Venice, not Florence. Go figure.

John Kasley

Feb-05-2013, 12:34pm

This has been hashed out before, see this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?61106-quot-F-quot-florentine-quot-A-quot)

Jim Garber

Feb-05-2013, 2:32pm

This has been hashed out before, see this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?61106-quot-F-quot-florentine-quot-A-quot)

I was looking for that thread... Thanks!

MikeEdgerton

Feb-05-2013, 2:47pm

This has been hashed out before, see this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?61106-quot-F-quot-florentine-quot-A-quot)

There are a few others as well. Thanks for finding that.

JeffD

Feb-05-2013, 2:49pm

I still like the spinach theory.

Quiche florentine ya know.

OK you don't want to know how I know that. Actually I don't, I just heard of it. Maybe saw it once.

mandroid

Feb-05-2013, 2:52pm

Firenze, Florence, A city in Italy, Florentine, referring to stuff about the city..

yea no gondoliers since its not at sea-level. ~o)

Willie Poole

Feb-05-2013, 11:06pm

As Allen stated, some builders call them F-5`s and F-4`s even though they are not made by Gibson....Ratliff refers to his as R-5`s and I am sure there are others that use a letter different than F but they all still use 5 to ID the FF holed mandolins and 4 for the oval holes... so there are some builders that want to get away from the F reference....

allenhopkins

Feb-06-2013, 2:12am

It's shorthand. Rather than saying, "It's an F-model mandolin with an oval hole," we say, "It's an F-4." Everybody pretty much knows what we mean. It may not be exactly like the original Gibson F-4 -- may have a raised fingerboard, e.g. -- but the "F-4" designation sticks to it.

Gibson missed the boat by not defending their old trademarks, IMHO. I can't make a solid-body electric and call it a "Les Paul" without legal jeopardy, but I can build an "F-5" and Gibson's got nothing to say about it. To maintain an exclusive trademark you have to show that you actively defend it against imitation or usurpation, and G gave up on that a long time ago, when it comes to their mandolin model designations. I believe you still can't call a banjo "Mastertone" without running afoul of Gibson's trademark, but you can call your mandolin "A-Jr." or "F-4" if you like.

Ivan Kelsall

Feb-06-2013, 2:33am

I suppose that this is another example of names ie.model/style numers once having been used by one manufacturer,being absorbed into common musical instrument parlance.Gibson used those names initially & folk became familiar with what they were & which instruments they described. Other makers of similarly styled instruments used the same name because they knew that people would recognise what they were describing.
It's interesting to note that the name 'Florentine' wasn't used in the Gibson catalogue that Jim Garber mentions.I've always thought that the 'F' designation did indeed signify the 'Florentine' styling. Did Orville Gibson used the term for his original 'flat back' mandolin style ?. If it doesn't mean Florentine,then what does it stand for ?,:confused:
Ivan;)

MikeEdgerton

Feb-06-2013, 4:54am

Did Orville Gibson used the term for his original 'flat back' mandolin style ?. If it doesn't mean Florentine,then what does it stand for ?

I suspect but certainly can't say definitively that Orville gave letters to his original designs and Gibson went on from there. The first was the A. I assume but can't obviously prove that there was a B, C, D, E, and finally an F. I assume those other designs didn't work out for him. Maybe the other model numbers weren't mandolins, who knows? Nobody knows what it stands for, and it's been beat to death. George Gruhn in one of his articles said F stands for Florentine. I think it probably started well before George was alive but there is nothing I've seen where Orville called it Florentine. Gibson did, for a while use letters in the banjo world that made sense (RB=Regular banjo, TB=Tenor banjo, GB=Guitar banjo, MB=Mandolin banjo) but that was many years after the mandolin designations came about. U is the letter designation for Harp guitar. F stands for the style body we know as an F just like A stands for the style body we know of as an A.

Bertram Henze

Feb-06-2013, 5:32am

The logic of names is often evasive, and it gets worse when names for a subset of things get promoted to signify the whole class.

Example 1: what has a young male horse to do with a gun?

Example 2: Nea So Copros speke: you can check on your sony what disneys they show tonight, but when you drive there in your ford you'd better exxon it up in advance...

Example 3: Tell an old man why "Blackberry Jam" is a mobile malfunction.

Pasha Alden

Feb-06-2013, 9:45am

Thanks - that is a fine explanation - I knew about Florentine, but not so much about the other information.

Jim Garber

Feb-06-2013, 9:45am

Here is a quote from Mike E on yet another thread on this topic (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?55906). A good overview on the Gibson Lettering System(?):

Here's a list of Gibson model letter designations from a previous thread:

A = Mandolin
B = ?
C = Mandolin
D = Mandolin
E = ?
F = Mandolin
G = ?
H = Mandola
I = ?
J = Mandobass
K = Mandocello
L = Guitar
O = Guitar
R = Harp guitar
U = Harp guitar

And More...

B = Guitar in the 60's

B = Banjo
CB = Cello banjo
MB = mandolin banjo
GB = Guitar banjo
RB = Regular banjo (5 string)
PB = Plectrum Banjo
TB = Tenor banjo
UB = Ukulele banjo

TL = Tenor lute

ES = Electric Spanish
EH = Electric Hawaiian
ETG = Electric Tenor Guitar
EM = Electric mandolin
LG = Little guitar
J = Jumbo (as in J-45 guitar)
SJ = Southern(er) Jumbo
V = violin (short production run during WWII)

Not sure about the C or D designation for mandolin.

My take on all this is that there was generally many cooks who contributed to this model-naming broth and no one dictator giving it any logical sense. Either that or the masterminds were sitting around saying that many years later this will drive people crazy.

Pasha Alden

Feb-06-2013, 9:46am

Bertram - too witty for words - wink

MikeEdgerton

Feb-06-2013, 12:15pm

Not sure about the C or D designation for mandolin.

I think I found both the C and the D in the Gruhn book and that they were very post Orville. It's been a long time since I compiled that list and I don't have my books here.