Learning to play in a new key

[Pete Martin]

9759497595One way of becoming fluid in a new key:

1) Learn the major scale in first position as low as you can go to as high as you can go. Be able to play this straight up and down

2) Learn common 2 and 4 note scale patterns for this key (see pdf file)

3) Learn some simple melodies in this key (folk songs, nursery rhymes, etc)

4) Learn some tunes in this key

5) Play tunes and songs normally in other keys in this new key

6) Repeat all steps in higher positions on the fingerboard.


The PDF files show the scales and a few patterns for the keys of G and Bb major. Best of luck! :mandosmiley:

[Werner Jaekel]

Hi Pete,

Also I would be very much interested in the use of Dom 7th , especially in dorian and mixolodian, but also in ionian and aeolian.


Maybe I am not the only one.


· The Dorian mode has a characteristic raised sixth relative to the Aeolian mode, which produces a major IV chord and a minor II chord. The dominant seventh chord in this mode occurs on the fourth scale degree, as IV7.
·
· The Mixolydian mode has a lowered 7th degree relative to the Ionian. The dominant seventh chord in this mode therefore occurs on the tonic, as I7. Other characteristic chords are v minor, and a VII major chord. There is also a iii dim chord, but it is not used extensively in modal compositions.


from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_musical_modes

Would you have any examples in notation ?

Key progressions and the likes. Scales, arpeggios, CTS...

Thank you

[mandocrucian]

5) Play tunes and songs normally in other keys in this new key

This is perhaps the most important, imo, of the suggestions, not to say that the others are not good and valid. This assumes that the person have the tunes in their head, and not stored solely in their fingers, locked into one key's fingering.

How to check?....If you can't hum the melody without the instrument, you've got it stored as muscle memory, not as a sonic memory. (And it would probably surprise folks how often this is the case......the student can pick the tune, but can't get through it vocally (and I'm not asking for a perfectly on-pitch vocal...but enough to know that they are actually "hearing it")

This whole "exercise" forces the fingers to follow the ear. (I call it "The Transposing Game" Instead of thinking primarily about the note names of pitches in the scale, you instead have to make your fingers go to the right fret to sound that note. You can attach the "names" (street signs) later. Yes, you could use the transpose function of notation program to give you notation/tab in the new key(s), but that is putting the visual ahead of the ear. Too much theory-think, and then you start bogging down the thought process with left-brain analysis rather than turning up the right-brain sound system.

I want the instrument to become an extension of the ear (first). Yes, you have to have repetition to ingrain things in muscle memory, but, I do not want finger habit (without hearing) to become dominant. (On mandos.....I've been way past that for a long long time.)

However on flute, without the advanced mechanical chops - I'll attach new key, or new register (#6 on Pete's list), exercise(s) with something (sonic) that's alread in my ear. I'll take a tune I play, and then move it up from D to Eb or E. Or G to A or Bb or F. Etc. And then take the common scale pattern (or arpeggio) exercises into the new key areas/fingerings. In fact, when I first started on the instrument (flute), I could not play a tune from notation.....it just took away too much brain processing from the concentration of putting the fingers where they needed to go - but, I could play something (slowly) if I actively "sung" it in my head and let the fingers try to follow that instead. Later, when I got more comfortable mechanically on the instrument and didn't have to continually think about finger movements, I could start to sightread tunes out of tunebooks/fakebooks.

I bring this up to show that the same advice I'm sharing here is the same advice I apply to myself (learning a new/secondary instrument), from the perspective of several decades of teaching, and even longer playing.

Niles H

BTW - So many of these Cafe threads keep addressing essentially the same issue, albeit from slightly different angles...."playing by ear", "transcribing" etc.

[JeffD]

Pete - some comments.

I am very tune oriented, not very improvisation oriented. While everything there in your list is important and wortwhile doing, I find skipping right to number 5 to be very effective. I do it two ways. I either write the tune out in the alternate key, (I even have a little key transposer slide rule that I sometimes use), or if I am familiar enough with the tune, just sound it out in the other key.

I guess once I can play the tune in the other key I have reached my goal - I am manifestly playing in the other key.

Playing scales, arpeggios, and chords, in the other key helps me figure out (and feel) the key itself, and what advantages there are playing there. But if I want to play a tune in another key I (to paraphrase Admiral Nelson) just go at it.

[tmsweeney]

minor swing is good example

most "jams" favor it in Am - which is pretty easy to play - I would think most new players should able to figure that one out by ear
Grisman recorded it in Gm - which IMHO has a "darker feel" to it but the fingering is a little more challenging- so it is fun to learn and play in both

there was thread about various keys for Black Mountain Rag- I was always a D guy - but then I tried it in C and the whole process of working out the fingering from how the tune sounds was -well - a lot of fun for me ( as depressing as that sounds)
as JeffD mentioned I used to write it out - but BMR was the first time I did it by ear as Niles speaks about
one thing is for sure if you can sing ( no matter how bad of a singer you are) a tune - you know it!

I believe Red Haired boy has been attempted in various keys at jams (D?) - but I think I like the A version it seems more "joyous"
I have found that one difficult to transpose on the spot

"The Rights of Man " is one that looses it's feel (IMHO) if you leave the Bb for something else.
still that is one of those tunes that should be transpose-able by ear - maybe for more of an intermediate player

[Tom Cherubini]

I heard an expert player who shall remain nameless here, young, who knows what sounds like hundreds of bluegrass tunes and even a few others, who plays everything at the same tempo and seemingly in the same key. My feeling is that he does it that way so he can use open strings in the key he has selected (probably G). I wonder what would happen if he moved up the neck one or two frets, and changed his tempi? Well I do know, actually. His playing wouldn't sound so monotonous. After the first few tunes they all sound like the same number.
But I'll never tell him.

About learning different keys; even if someone wants to keep playing by ear, moving a piece up or down the fret board presents essentially the same challenges, and does open up skills some. I mean, heaven forbid that we may have to learn something with no open strings!

Strings8

[mandocrucian]

one thing is for sure if you can sing ( no matter how bad of a singer you are) a tune - you know it!

To put it as simply as possible - real playing is being able to "sing" on the instrument.

[neil argonaut]

I find a good practice for me is to take a tune I know (in this case normally scottish or Irish traditional) and play it once through, then transpose it up or down a 5th and play again, and keep doing this until you've cycled through all twelve keys. It sounds a bit daunting, but can be quite fun once you get into it, and tends to take me about 20 mins or so now for most tunes, if I don't repeat stuff.
It has the triple benefit of
a) getting that one tune firmly lodged in your brain
b) Forcing you to play in keys you wouldn't often, like C#/Db
c) Starting to think more in terms of scale degrees, size of gaps between notes etc, making it easier to learn new stuff by ear.

Although some keys might not seem that useful, whenever there's singing guitarists with capos, the more keys you can be comfortable in the better in my experience.

[albeham]

Pete,

were can I find more like this?

AL

[AlanN]

minor swing is good example

Grisman recorded it in Gm -

On which recording?

[jshane]

To put it as simply as possible - real playing is being able to "sing" on the instrument.

This is, in my opinion, EXACTLY correct. If you believe that you are creating music by memorizing finger patterns you are fooling yourself. Music theory, understanding modes and modal constructs, etc are all AFTER THE FACT inventions to help us understand and communicate ABOUT music... not to help CREATE music. Again, in my opinion, the ultimate goal is to have your creative brain hardwired, via your hands (in the case of the mandolin) to your instrument. That is, to create the condition that if your brain can "hear it", or maybe "think it", you can cause it to be played on the instrument. In real-time, this is "improvisation". In contemplative-time, this is "composition". Unfortunately an awful lot of what one hears is neither-- it falls into the category of "finger exercise"... sometimes blindingly fast and mechanically-impressive finger exercise.... but it isnt, as mandocrucian put it, "real playing".

[tmsweeney]

I believe Hot Dawg - I never had the vinyl but it is on the CD reissue

in his homespun series - the sheet music is Gm as well

[Don Julin]

I believe Hot Dawg - I never had the vinyl but it is on the CD reissue

in his homespun series - the sheet music is Gm as well

Actually Dawg's version is in D minor and it has a bridge section that was not included in the original Django version.

As for playing by ear vs. memorizing finger patterns, IMHO these two things work together. Playing by ear in standard keys is not that tough for someone that has been playing a while, but most mandolin players fall short when asked to play by ear in Ab or Db. Why? Because we don't play in those keys often (unless we play a lot of jazz) and therefor don't have any muscle memory of what that key feels like. Pete's advice is very good. Learn the scale in 1st position, learn some patterns in that position. At that point you will start to make the connection between your hands and your ears. With any luck your brain will get involved in the process. Only then will you be able to play by ear in this new key. In order to play by ear, you need to know were to put your fingers to make the sound you hear in your head. Each key, when played in 1st position has it's own unique fingering.

I don't think Pete was advocating running those patterns as a form of improvisation, but as a way to get familiar with the sound and the fingerings of less common keys.

[Werner Jaekel]

Pete,

were can I find more like this?

AL
http://www.petimarpress.com/downloads/Theory.pdf
http://www.petimarpress.com/downloads/CTS.pdf

[Bertram Henze]

Either that or putting the capo in a different position...:grin:

(ducking and running)

[AlanN]

In the current Manolin Magazine, Don Stiernberg's column lays out Take Five in Em and Ebm. This is a good way to take a familiar, fairly straightforward melody to a new place on the fingerboard.

And yes, Dawg did Minor Swing in D minor. The Great Grappelli plays some wonderful fiddle on the Hot Dawg take.

[Pete Martin]

As for playing by ear vs. memorizing finger patterns, IMHO these two things work together. Playing by ear in standard keys is not that tough for someone that has been playing a while, but most mandolin players fall short when asked to play by ear in Ab or Db. Why? Because we don't play in those keys often (unless we play a lot of jazz) and therefor don't have any muscle memory of what that key feels like. Pete's advice is very good. Learn the scale in 1st position, learn some patterns in that position. At that point you will start to make the connection between your hands and your ears. With any luck your brain will get involved in the process. Only then will you be able to play by ear in this new key. In order to play by ear, you need to know were to put your fingers to make the sound you hear in your head. Each key, when played in 1st position has it's own unique fingering.

I don't think Pete was advocating running those patterns as a form of improvisation, but as a way to get familiar with the sound and the fingerings of less common keys.

Good stuff here Don. That is exactly what I meant.

You can use LITTLE bits of patterns in your improv, and I hear great players do this often, but just SMALL bits. Attached is an example of a different 4 note pattern I have heard used in improv. Off the top of my head I can remember transcribing this in solos by Mark O'Connor and John Coltrane used this a LOT. Once again usually not more than about one measure, but very useful.

97736

[Austin Bob]

Interesting stuff. In choir practice the other day we had a piece in Bb, and we decided to try it in G instead to see if some of the notes would be easier for the singer.

I have no problem transposing the chords (especially since the music already had capo 3 chords for the guitar), but trying to transpose the melody line down a step and a half on the fly got me very confused. If I closed my eyes and listened to the guitar, I could pick it, but I could NOT do it via reading the music. This skill is often used by session players, which is why I still have a day job.

[ralph johansson]

I believe the best way to demystify keys is to avoid the "easy" keys, G,D,A, or at least avoid open strings in the beginning. When I got started on the guitar in 1957 (I took up the mando 10 years later) I approached the keys systematically. I was helped by the fact that I already knew standard notation. So I started with C and then added sharps and flats right and left: C, F, G, Bb, D, etc. By this token flat keys were just as easy or hard as sharp keys. Why not approach the mando in the same way?

I really don't understand this emphasis on singing. But of course, I'm not a very technical singer, poor intonation, poor timing; besides my vocal range overlaps with the mando in only one octave. And what about double stops and chords? Really, what I prefer to play on the mando, and gives me pleasure, is stuff that would take a virtuoso singer to perform. However, I do agree, that you should try to transpose by ear, not by "figuring". Recently I learned Slow Poke from a video with Pee Wee King. He sings it in G, but I didn't like that range, so I transposed it to Bb - there's a series of chords that I like to do at the end that would be much harder or even impossible in a lower key. And, of course, I was helped by having the tune in my head and substantial theoretical knowledge.

[catmandu2]

I really don't understand this emphasis on singing. .

... for me it's the best way to internalize a tune (or chord). I have many methods of transposing from one thing to another, but I believe my most venerable technique--especially when "stuck" on a given chord, or trying to assimilate a long passage--is to learn to sing it

When learning chords from recorded works--especially extensions and alterations--or complex lines with lots of chromaticism, it's easiest for me to identify the tones individually by singing. And it's the quickest and easiest--not requiring any adjunct equipment, such as an instrument..

There are many, many other benefits of singing (not dependent on any aesthetic technical singing ability--other than to sing on pitch). For me, it is the single most important and useful tool--enhancing facility in orchestration, improvising, transposition, everything

[Pasha Alden]

Thanks for that Pete - as always so helpful. I hear music fairly easily so do not struggle to play in new keys, but the thread leads me to a silly question: do I understand first position to be the second fret, or scales beginning with my first finger in the second fret?

[JeffD]

Scales begining with an open string

[Pasha Alden]

Hi there Pete, Jef Mandocrucian - interesting points. I am all for the learning by ear thing, for me I am finding scales to work the fingers, and yes, help the ear be able to transpose from one key to another. I think having perfect pitch helps.

Some believe one is born with that, others believe discrimination of tone and notes, also perfect pitch can be learnt and developed -


I sound somewhat weird, but believe me not so: but by way of explanation: since the age of three I could hear notes and experience some kind of synesthesia when playing music - hearing notes and chords in colour. I do not know why that is.
That often helps me photographically and audibly remember the chords and notes of a song.
I discuss this in my forum "experience related to music" and In my forum: "Diary of a mandolin player."

Thanks for the tips - because even some who hears should always keep the ear open for new things to learn! <big smile>

[catmandu2]

I sound somewhat weird, but believe me not so: but by way of explanation: since the age of three I could hear notes and experience some kind of synesthesia when playing music - hearing notes and chords in colour. I do not know why that is.
That often helps me photographically and audibly remember the chords and notes of a song.

I understand at least some of what you're talking about: I experience things very tangibly "relational"...and therefore everything at some point "feels" spatial (and consequently, I can often experience phenomena in permutable forms). For example, I have this ability to often be able to guess at what time it is--without having seen a clock in some hours--within a minute or so (my wife can attest to this). I experience time "spatially"...the "distance" from one moment to the next--for me, is often very apparent. Having been rasied with such "visual" emphasis, I can often use sight and visual phenomena as an analog for other phenomena

Music is but a series of notes--in relation (disatance) to one another. Within a system, or fomat--say, western 12-tone scale and various diatonics--these become very familiar...like "A,B,C..," etc.--especially after decades and decades of use. The intervallic distances/relationships don't change--so each day we work with them--they become simply more familiar

I'm using other systems in the last few years--based in "quartertones" and "microtones" of Western harmonic systems--such as Indian raga and Arabic maqam: these being more unfamiliar to me--it takes more time for me to "understand" and work with them, etc

When we have more "points of reference," things get easier

[Pete Martin]

do I understand first position to be the second fret, or scales beginning with my first finger in the second fret?

Some keys dont have notes at the second fret. Ab is an example. Also many don't have any open strings, once again Ab is an example.

First position is the lowest place you can play the entire range of the scale (aprox 2 1/2 octaves) without shifting.

For the key of A, start index finger on the second fret of the G string. For the key of Ab start on the first fret of the G string.

[Pasha Alden]

Hi there - imagine experiencing time in that way - that must have in influence on the rhythm in the music? Very interesting.

Music is truly powerful and the relationship and distance between notes have such powerful affects - and I think that statement maybe over simplifying the matter.

Wonderful music

[catmandu2]

Well it’s a meditation. Not to say that I’m always so sensitive and aware of phenomena. But we are capable of attuning ourselves to be sensitive to the subtlest phenomena—so that the finest differences between this or that, this tone and that tone, seem as overt as the physical landscape. The beauty in life comes from observing these differences—and there are such differences to be observed all around! The wonderful thing about music is that it allows us to attune ourselves so fine--to dwell in these places of the subtlest vibrations. And, in associating phenomena—inspiring our poetic imagination

Re, singing: we are the transposing instrument. Our mandolins are just tools that help us express our experience

[Pasha Alden]

Thanks Pete

With you and all others now. Have been practicing that way - but it's good to understand "first position" for exactly what it is -

[Pasha Alden]

That is true Catmandu

[Tom Cherubini]

Thanks for that Pete - as always so helpful. I hear music fairly easily so do not struggle to play in new keys, but the thread leads me to a silly question: do I understand first position to be the second fret, or scales beginning with my first finger in the second fret?
May I humbly ('humbly' because one can't be too careful around here so as not to rough up sensitive souls) suggest that you forget first position, second position etc, etc, and think instead of "keys" and "key signatures", and where the tonic of a key lies on the fretboard (several places actually, and all are useful).

strings8

[Tom Cherubini]

Hi there Pete, Jef Mandocrucian - interesting points. I am all for the learning by ear thing, for me I am finding scales to work the fingers, and yes, help the ear be able to transpose from one key to another. I think having perfect pitch helps.

Some believe one is born with that, others believe discrimination of tone and notes, also perfect pitch can be learnt and developed -


I sound somewhat weird, but believe me not so: but by way of explanation: since the age of three I could hear notes and experience some kind of synesthesia when playing music - hearing notes and chords in colour. I do not know why that is.
That often helps me photographically and audibly remember the chords and notes of a song.
I discuss this in my forum "experience related to music" and In my forum: "Diary of a mandolin player."

Thanks for the tips - because even some who hears should always keep the ear open for new things to learn! <big smile>

Are you saying that you can hear a note being played on an instrument, say, the piano, and name it? As in, "That's a Db. That's a B."

[catmandu2]

May I humbly ('humbly' because one can't be too careful around here so as not to rough up sensitive souls) suggest that you forget first position, second position etc, etc, and think instead of "keys" and "key signatures", and where the tonic of a key lies on the fretboard (several places actually, and all are useful).



occurs on all forums.. ;)

Good suggestions