Even string spacing?

[Jim Garber]

I just noticed in this listing for a Sam Bush F5 (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-6296.htm) on Elderly's site a reference to "Sam Bush" even string spacing. Here are a couple of photos to illustrate.

How does that differ from standard string spacing? How do you generally set up string pairs? Do you measure the same distance center to center from each string or from the outside of each string? I would imagine that you cannot have the same spacing between the G strings and from the E strings. What is the method used for optimum comfortable string spacing? And is there some advantage to Sam's preference? It almost looks like all 8 strings are evenly spaced at the nut and the courses are separated at the bridge. The G strings look even more separated at the bridge than the other pairs.

[Bernie Daniel]

Jim -- I have a Sam Bush F-5 and my mandolin and has a new nut with the "conventional" spacing -- except for the fact that the nut is 1/8" wider than standard (1 1/16").

I guess Sam likes it but I didn't! :)

[Jim Garber]

Bernie: Isn't std nut width 1 1/8"?

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Bernie: Isn't std nut width 1 1/8"?

My 4 Gibsons are all 1 1/16'' or even a little less. I didn't think their spacing followed any rule other than some (historical?) example. I changed them to proportional spacing, which feels "even".:(
The extra wide G-spacing I saw on several 90s Montana F5s; fear of G strings buzzing against each other?

[belbein]

I just had to research this in trying to set up my Octave Mandolin. I don't remember exact specs--I can find them if you need it--but indeed, apparently the "standard" spacing has the space between the G strings slightly larger than all others; then the space from G to A course slightly larger than all other intra-course spacings. The space between the D strings, the A strings and the E strings is all the same.

Another issue is spacing from the edge of the bridge or nut. I have some really good experience with what happens if you don't leave enough spacing ... particularly since I made the same mistake twice.

Let me know if you need specif specs.

[Jim Garber]

I have a feeling that my main playing mandolin is not set up with the optimal string spacing. The unwound strings look too close. I have to check Rob M's book to see if there is anything there. I would love to know if there is some formula or ideal.

[Jim Garber]

I found a few older threads with a Google search:

String Spacing (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?47093-String-spacing) (started by Dr. Dave Cohen)

Nut String Spacing (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?19031-nut-string-spacing) (way back in 2006)

Good info from some excellent makers there.

[belbein]

Another place to look is the Bluestem Mandolin Family String Spacing Guide, at Bluestemstrings.com. It won't give you specs, but it will give you a template to use for both nut and bridge. Again, let me know if you want me to look up specs, and I'll be glad to. I think they're on my bench downstairs.

[Grommet]

Rudy's spacing guide was helpful for me. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?81292-Mando-Family-String-Spacing-Guide&highlight=string+spacing+guide

[Tom Wright]

Considering only the issue of space between strings in each pair, my Weber has rather close spacing in even the wound pairs, while my Buchanan is pretty wide. (I am not in town so I can't offer numbers.) The close pairs are easier to finger cleanly and play in tune, and yield a cleaner attack. They don't seem to inhibit sound much. The Buchanan with its wide pairs is more fussy about finger angle and pressure, ditto my orchestra mandolin with wide pairs.

It seems to me that one aspect of mandolin sound is that when we pick, the doubled strings will slap together and alter the response from what a single course would yield. I think it allows a cleaner attack because the strings can't vibrate too widely and go sharp for an instant, and the pitch is more stable in that transient. And since the sound projection comes from the vertical movement and not the horizontal plane, slap can only inhibit the attack, not the continuing sound.

Before I ordered my 10-string I thought I might prefer an acoustic 5-string, so I unstrung the Weber to see how single courses would behave. The result was not only less rich in tone, it was also less stable and strong in attack.

All this to say I am not persuaded you really need large separation for the strings, even the low-pitch ones. I think that slap is actually helpful in steadying the attack instantly, ensuring that the pair is in phase as well as not starting off sharp. In fact, I notice the phase issue in the wide-pair Buchanan---when I pluck the C pair on a resonant note like F, there is some variation in how deep the tone is, depending on just how I fast I move the pick across the pair.

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie: Isn't std nut width 1 1/8"?

Well maybe it is now.

But before this last bunch with Dave Harvey most Gibson F-5's were 1 1/16" -- at least that is what all three of the previous Gibson F-5's I owned before the Bush were. Most Loar's are 1 1/16" I believe.

The Sammie is 1 3/16" -- almost exactly the same as an F-4 :)

[Willie Poole]

Maybe the guys at Cumberland Bridges could chime in, I bought a bridge that was slotted and they look to be the same to me but I haven`t measured the distance, I do have a KM-900 that has the E strings kind of close together, the others seem to be the same distance from each other...

All of this could be just what a picker desires when ordering a mandolin custom made or changing a nut or bridge saddle....

Willie

[Jim Garber]

Another place to look is the Bluestem Mandolin Family String Spacing Guide, at Bluestemstrings.com. It won't give you specs, but it will give you a template to use for both nut and bridge. Again, let me know if you want me to look up specs, and I'll be glad to. I think they're on my bench downstairs.


Rudy's spacing guide was helpful for me. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?81292-Mando-Family-String-Spacing-Guide&highlight=string+spacing+guide

Hah you guys mentioned the same link in different places. Here is the actual page (http://bluestemstrings.com/pageMando.html). The pdf is here (http://bluestemstrings.com/BluestemMandoStringSpacingGuide.pdf).

[Jim Garber]

Bernie: now I have to check a bunch of my mandolins and measure the nut width. I am sure you are right that the Loar era ones are narrower.

[Pete Jenner]

I found a few older threads with a Google search:

String Spacing (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?47093-String-spacing) (started by Dr. Dave Cohen)

Nut String Spacing (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?19031-nut-string-spacing) (way back in 2006)

Good info from some excellent makers there.

I took all my string spacings from Graham's photo of the Gil in the 2009 thread. I'd forgotten where I'd got them - thanks for reminding me. :)

[Jim Garber]

I checked a few mandolins for nut width:

'23 A-Jr snakehead: 1-1/6"
'23 A-2 snakehead: 1-1/6"
late teens L&H style A: 1-1/8"
mid twenties Washburn Style A Professional: 1-1/8"

[mirwa]

There are three ways to cut a nut, then in your situation there is the addition of the second set of strings

The first method is call the even spacing rule, this means the gap between your 4 strings "1st set of strings only" is even between them

The second method is called the centre spacing rule, this is where the centre of the strings are placed at an even distance to each other, (it does not accomodate for the string thickness or sizings)

The third and last is the graduated ruler rule, this is where you use a ruler that has a set of lines marked on it that gradually increases the gap between the lines, you use the ruler to lay a graduated scale on the nut.

Then once you have worked out what spacing's you want to suit your nut size, you offset your second set of strings an even mount on every string, this can be from as little as 1.5mm to 3mm to accomodate the players style, also laying the strings out depends on whether they up strum or down strum

Theres lots to a nut

[Bernie Daniel]

I checked a few mandolins for nut width:

'23 A-Jr snakehead: 1-1/6"
'23 A-2 snakehead: 1-1/6"
late teens L&H style A: 1-1/8"
mid twenties Washburn Style A Professional: 1-1/8"


That's interesting that those '23 Gibson A's were narrower -- of course they are both snakeheads.

Almost all of the "19-teens" A-models were the wider 1 3/16" like the top line F-2's and F-4's -- when Loar narrowed the nut on the F-5's maybe other models got changed too. One thing you can say about Gibson is that they were consistently inconsistent.

Just talking the Gibson mandolins I have own/owned:

Three of the 4 F-5's I've had were about 1 1/16", the exception is the Sam Bush at 1 3/16".

Likewise, the two F-2's and F-4 (1919 & 1920) I've owned were all 1 3/16" as was the 1953 F-12 and a 1912 A-2. (there is a '54 F-12 exactly like my old one in the Classifieds now and I'm certain that one also has a 1 3/16" nut).

But, then I had a 1972 F-12 that was 1 1/16". So up and down.

The 1963 A-40 and the 1964 EM-150 are both on the long side of 1 3/16".

As I mentioned earlier I am seeing some new Gibson F-models (JamMaster etc.) with 1 1/8" nuts now so I wonder if that is the new "standard"?

[tree]

And is there some advantage to Sam's preference?

I think Sam likes to occasionally "split" a string pair, and the wider spacing between strings of a pair allows him to fret one of them (for example, the inside string of the G or D pair) and let the other string sound open. That's pretty difficult to do with traditional spacing (only way I can do it on my F5G is to use my fingernail, and only with my index finger).

The wider neck allows the string pairs to be spread a little wider, too, which helps accomodate the extra space within each pair.