Need a lot of help on this one, possible De Meglio with a twist!

[scottjpatrick]

hello again, I have owned this mandolin since the 1980's, got it in a trade when I used to run a second hand record store. Pretty sure it's a De Meglio but there is no label. Since reading about them I also realise that there were many copies made. The 'twist' on this one you will see clearly in the photos, I've tried to research this but have made no progress at all. First things first, is it a De Meglio?

96319963209632196322

Ok, some of you may have noticed that the inside of the bowl looked a bit different, here is why.

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I have absolutely no idea whether this is original or not but whoever made the aluminium bowl did a very intricate job and the joins to the top of the mandolin are virtually seamless. Was it made this way? Was the original damaged and someone replaced it? Was it a special order as I have seen some mandolins from this era with this type of back? Any help appreciated, any more photos please ask. Scott.

[mrmando]

Could be a Merrill.

[brunello97]

Could be a Merrill.

That would be a VERY unusual Merrill. Very curious mandolin, Scott, of course more photos would be great to see.

The headstock profile and pickguard of course resemble those used by DeMeglio. The neck joint does look similar also (or to clones, or maybe mandolins they made for other labels) with the slight flaring out at the transition from body to bowl. That said, I have not seen a proper DeMeglio with the Sienese binding.

Any or all of your speculations may be true. How about the tossing the Brit JG Winder into the hat as potential sources?

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

I'm pretty sure it's not a De Meglio -- there were loads of builders who copied the distinctive De Meglio style, and whoever made this one did so as well. Apart from the aluminium bowl, the scratchplate also isn't quite right for a de Meglio. Too light in colour and slightly more awkward proportions. I've seen scratchplates like this before on De Melgio clones made by UK makers, so Mick may be right.

Martin

[scottjpatrick]

Thanks for the info guys, the reason I thought this may be a De Meglio is that I found one once in an Edinburgh music store that was identicaI to this one but had the conventional two tone laminated back. It had a De Meglio label dated 1896 but I now know that may have been a copy. I will post more photos later today taken in natural daylight so you can see the proper colour of the scratchplate which may help. I do think the bowl is original, the fit is so tight and the decoration is so detailed it's hard to imagine someone done this as a replacement.

[scottjpatrick]

More photos.
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[Graham McDonald]

Sienese binding.


???

The interesting thing might be how the soundboard is attached to the aluminium bowl?
Perhaps German, as Christian S has several examples of German aluminium bodies who from memory used that incised pattern along the top edge and attached the neck to the body with a couple of screws. Still interesting thatthey have some details like the nut/zero fret.

cheers

graham

[scottjpatrick]

I will try to use a small mirror to try and photograph the joins.

[Jim Garber]

It does have the ebony tone thinger and the cast zero fret. I can't really see the neck-headstock joint and it doesn't have that lovely tulipwood bevelled edge that real DeMeglio's have.

The Merrills have a rather complicated zig-zag joint to attach the top to the bowl.

[brunello97]

???

Not sure if it is 'technically' a luthier's term, Graham. ;)

Mick

[Jim Garber]

More info on this thread on American aluminum mandolins (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?13511-Aluminum-Bowl/page2&highlight=merrill). Page 2 has the best pics.

[brunello97]

More info on this thread on American aluminum mandolins (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?13511-Aluminum-Bowl/page2&highlight=merrill). Page 2 has the best pics.

Here's a catalog page of German Munimula mandolins from the thread that Jim linked (and that Christian posted.)

The middle one shows some similarity to the DeMeglio headstock.

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

Not sure if it is 'technically' a luthier's term, Graham. ;)

Mick

Suspected there might be an architectural connection...

Though not limited to Sienna I would have thought. The two of the small churches in Monterosso on the Ligurian coast had the outside walls in alternating stripes as I recall.

g

[brunello97]

No dissing the Cinque Terreans, Graham. Polychrome marble had a pretty long run of popularity. I suspect the cathedral design emerged out of a design trend and was extremely influential on other towns as well. Siena was il grosso cane in the region. At least until 1348.

I've heard various tales of the source of the black/green and white striping, from the horses of the city's founders to Moorish, Sicilian and Venitian influences. Can't help but think of those columns in the Duomo when I see that mandolin binding.

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

No dissing the Cinque Terreans, Graham. Polychrome marble had a pretty long run of popularity. I suspect the cathedral design emerged out of a design trend and was extremely influential on other towns as well. Siena was il grosso cane in the region. At least until 1348.

I've heard various tales of the source of the black/green and white striping, from the horses of the city's founders to Moorish, Sicilian and Venitian influences. Can't help but think of those columns in the Duomo when I see that mandolin binding.

Mick

Wouldn't dream of dissing the Cinque Terre. The only (very slight) annoyance was just too many Australians and other tourists around. :)

[brunello97]

Wouldn't dream of dissing the Cinque Terre. The only (very slight) annoyance was just too many Australians and other tourists around. :)

It's always been a bit Noel Cowardly when I've been there: mad dogs and Englishmen (and Germans, Americans, etc.)

Mick

[scottjpatrick]

looks like the telecaster.com site isn't the only one where posts get hi-jacked! seems like the jury is still out on this one, possibly but unlikely de meglio, maybe German, maybe........

[Graham McDonald]

looks like the telecaster.com site isn't the only one where posts get hi-jacked! seems like the jury is still out on this one, possibly but unlikely de meglio, maybe German, maybe........

My apologies Scott . Anyway, I'm blaming Mick. He started it with his made up lutherie terms, so there :)

I still think probably German

Cheers

Graham

[scottjpatrick]

hey it's cool, I've hijacked a few over on the tele site and my son wants to do architecture at uni so it's good grounding for me, I need to go and research some German mandolins! Wish I had bought the other one I saw in Edinburgh that day with the De Meglio label, even if it was a copy it would have been nice to have the pair. :(

[scottjpatrick]

Found this J G Winder which sold on eBay last year, headstock, nut/zero fret, bridge and tensioner certainly similar to mine.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-NEAPOLITAN-STYLE-MANDOLIN-BY-J-G-WINDER-OF-LONDON-mandoline-mandolino-/330838097890?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instr uments&hash=item4d077cbfe2&nma=true&si=VVb5sgPn1iHeHdPoU5KBuRq4xRg%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Jim Garber]

Some discussion on J.G. Winder starting at this posting (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?2591-Bowlbacks-of-Note&p=1116758&viewfull=1#post1116758).

[scottjpatrick]

thanks Jim

[brunello97]

My apologies Scott . Anyway, I'm blaming Mick. He started it with his made up lutherie terms, so there :)

"Made up lutherie terms"? Aren't all lutherie terms 'made up'?: Papa Smurf headstocks, Bluto scratchplates, Bulgeback mandolins, random-hippie sanding, reptile dentistry? If there is a 'dictionary of lutherie terms' out there it better be one that is alive as the language that it is composed of.

Scott, this is a group of bubs at a Cafe, not an academic colloquium or an airplane to be hijacked. Conversations do meander around and eventually find there way back to topic. ;) Isn't that part of the pleasure of it all?

I'm not confident that this is clearly Italian, English or German. Maybe the bowl was a retrofit? Kind of reminds me of the story of the old US wooden warship the Merrimack that was clad in iron and became the Virginia during the US Civil War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Virginia

Now at least a thread hijacking has a nautical theme.

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

If you have a look at the pics of the bowl neck join, the veneering over the neck shaft does look like it has been there since it was originally made, rather than the aluminium shell being added after.

Always happy for new lutherie terminology. Makes it interesting

G

[brunello97]

If you have a look at the pics of the bowl neck join, the veneering over the neck shaft does look like it has been there since it was originally made, rather than the aluminium shell being added after. G

Maybe, but the DeMeglio-style neck detail actually has the ends of the bowl staves fitting into a reveal/notch at the neck neck block-for a much cleaner joint. (I've got two disassembled on my bench right now.) Certainly an easier detail to deal with than other Italian neck veneers I've worked on. If you were going to re-bowl (there's a neo-luthier-logism for you) it would be an far simpler move.

I don't see anything to convince myself that this was actually done. Sure doesn't look much like any of those German munimula examples, though. But who else was making them?

Mick