Horowitz's Gypsy Picking

[James]

Thanks Hrimaly for the link to djangobooks (in the thread on Django Mandolin/Mandola). #While at the site I looked at Michael Horowitz's book, Gypsy Picking. #The book highlights the "rest-stroke picking technique," which Horowitz describes as a characteristic feature of Django-style gypsy swing. #

Does anyone know what the rest-stroke picking technique is, and if it's applicable to mandolin? #Also, has anyone used the Horowitz book, and can it be adapted to mandolin (or in my case, mandola)? #Here's the link to the book:
http://www.djangobooks.com/books/gypsy_picking/

Thanks,

James

[Eugene]

"Rest stroke" is the staple of classical mandolin. #Mandolin playing is dominated by downstrokes, and those conceptually should pass through the target string in a generally inward direction towards the soundboard to come to rest on the next string down (e.g., the pick should drive in through the a' course and come to silently rest on e"). #Check out the Bickford mandolin method at Djangobooks.

[duuuude]

Isn't it also the "rest stroke" that gives the gypsy guitar the "boom-chick" sound as well, by strumming the rest of the chord following the "rest" stroke?

[jmcgann]

Yeah, rest strokes work great on mando. I find I can use a lighter touch than on guitar (i.e. I don't use the 3.5 Wegen on the mando-overkill for me!).

I'm going to be moderator of the gypsy mando board at the djangobooks.com site, so fall by and chat sometime!

[Eugene]

For easy reference:
The Bickford Mandolin Method, vol. 1 (http://www.djangobooks.com/archives/2004/05/04/new_ebook_the_bickford_mandolin_method.html)

[Eugene]

Isn't it also the "rest stroke" that gives the gypsy guitar the "boom-chick" sound as well, by strumming the rest of the chord following the "rest" stroke?
I'm not exactly certain what you're trying to describe here, duuuude, but it sounds analogous to what golden-era mandolinists like Bickford or Stauffer might describe as "split stroke."

[duuuude]

Yeah, I've heard it called a few different things, what I was referring to was the driving boom-chick sound the rhythm guitar plays in gypsy jazz, which can be emulated on mando.

[jmcgann]

duuuude... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Gypsy jazz guitar isn't boom-chick at all- that's bluegrass, bass note/chord. Gypsy Jazz in the traditional form is very even quarter notes- chank chank chank chank. Listen to the guys backing Django, and then listen to any "comper" playing behind Bireli or any of todays players- it is very very straight rhythm. That's not to say you HAVE to take that approach, and when Django comped, he played OVER what they are doing, more like the way a modern pianist would comp- hits and lots of space rather than a constant slamming..but if you want authentic, there you go.

[Eugene]

I think that executing chords on guitar in old-school swing is remarkably similar to the chop chord of bluegrass mandolin. #On the rare occasions that I try to remember how to play jazz, it's practically identical. #The mechanics of execution may be similar, but the rhythm is different. #In bluegrass, the bass goes "boom" on 1 and 3 in common time while the mandolin chops on 2 and 4 ("chick"); the guitar emulates both sides, "boom" and "chick," on a single instrument, but bluegrass plectrum technique on guitar isn't so much like that of swing or mandolin. #To reiterate John, the rhythm guitar is pretty much going "chop-chop-chop-chop" on every beat with occasional syncopated bits for added interest in swing.

[duuuude]

http://nuagesdeswing2.free.fr/sons_playback/limehouse_blues.mp3

Sounds like boom-chick to me, guess I'm just a rookie.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[SternART]

I sat in with a Django band with a guitarist steeped in the authentic style, he is an awe inspiring picker.
I sat to his right and was watching his pickin' hand. I was surprised to see that he mostly played down
strokes...and this included the rest-stroke you folks are describing where he would stop on the next string......
I'll tell ya from my observations, there are parallels to Monroe style down stroke melody & Django style melody,
but without the rest-stroke of course. Maybe this is part of the rhythmic drive I like in both styles.

[jmcgann]

Sorry duuuude ...no offense meant, but check it out:
chick chick chick chick. Boom chick is two different attacks (bass note/chord). If you do that with a#Gypsy style player, they'll correct you fast, steal your Harley and call you a gadjo. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

It's all chord... Listen closely to that clip.

There are lots of parallels bewteen Monroe, Django, Chuck Berry, Oud music, Metallica, Pantera...those downstrokes are crucial!

[JamesBryan]

Chik - chick - chank - chank, #boom -chick... Tough to communicate rhythm and tone in printed letters. #Would be better if we could all sit around and listen to a demo together. #Horowitz' site also has very good examples of variations on "La Pompe." #For a small fee. #

For my .02, #what I keep hearing is what the flappers all danced to, "Whack-a-doo, whack-a-doo," with variations on cadence. #Subtleties on slight upstroke brush for that "-a-" between the "whack - doos." # There, that ought to clear things up. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif (yeah,right....)#Jim

[JamesBryan]

Oh and also, in the gypsy jams I can tell when I'm lapsing into good ol' Monroe rhythm because of the looks from the guitar players and eventually some comment like "You're on the wrong beat man!" Definitely a different feel. #Its hard to hear how your rhythm is sounding in the midst of the gypsy guitar tsunami. #But if you record yourself trying it sometime, especially against some track like Horowitz', Nolan, or the others, its definitely ear-opening.

I find that if there's already plenty of ample guitar rhythm going on, its good instead to take advantage of the mandolin's nimble bounciness to do rhythm accents. #Like a little shuffle at the end of a line or ringier full minor-7th chords, or tremolo at the suspenseful parts [like on Nuages, the F#m - B7- Em part]. #Have even had guitarists suggest doing those kind of clever variations. #Tastefully. #When you step over the line, you get that same look esp from the orthodoxy. #Jim

[duuuude]

OK, I stand corrected, it must have been the whack-a-doo taht did it for me but now I hear what yer all talkin' about.

So to get back to the rest stroke, is that what I'm hearin' when there's not strumming on every beat, would that be rest-chick when you only hear the strum on 2 & 4?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[jmcgann]

Hmm- I've never heard any Gypsy play on just 2 and 4...it's really a bit more "square" than what we thing of a swing guitar...

[duuuude]

Well, I Guess it's "back to the drawing board" then. Am I hearing a stronger emphasis on 2 & 4, or is there a "rest-chick" for every beat? I could just be thinking the wrong tempo while I'm listening. Guess I'll just have to pay closer attention when I see the Djunkyard Gypsies this weekend.

[jmcgann]

Depends on the player...I was listening to Fapy LaFertin (excellent Belgian gypsy guitarist) and the rhythm there had a slight accent on 2 and 4, but still a bit more "square" than your average American swing player would do...

There is a great DVD of Bireli Lagrene "Live in Vienne" available through Amazon.Com which is worth a thousand words in terms of checking out the comping- you can see it AND hear it!

[duuuude]

Thanks for the input, I did some re-reading on the web and found where I originally got the "boom-chick" analogy and found that what I had missed was that it was on every beat, DOH! That makes for some quick pickin'. Now I'm beginning to see that light at the end of the tunnel, I appreciate y'all lettin' me beat this to death, I'm old and learn slow.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[jmcgann]

That's the fun of gettin' old to me- even though new stuff takes longer, when you have something new it's all the cooler http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

BTW There is a French company reissuing ALL of Django in 2 CD increments called "DJANGO INTERGRALES". They are all remastered with nice booklets in French and English. The label is Fremeaux & Associes. I got good prices on them through http://www.cdconnection.com They are up to vol. 19; I think the series will end at vol 20. So 40 CDs worth http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[mad dawg]

Great thread gang, and keep it up. I keep marvelling at how much I learn at this site from discussions like this (and often while goofing off at work!)