PDA

View Full Version : Learning Standard Notation



Alyx Hanson
Oct-29-2012, 1:26pm
I'm sure others have tried this, and I'm wondering what your experiences are:

I can read standard notation. I played piano for several years and can understand what the notes mean. But I've had a really hard time translating that knowledge to a mandolin fretboard, even though I know how to do it: it just takes me forever to do, because I see the notes on the page, visualize them on the piano in my head, and then take those notes and transfer them to my mandolin fretboard. In order to learn new songs more quickly, I find that I prefer to take the time to translate melodies from standard notation to TAB, because I can recognize what's happening on the mandolin more quickly with TAB.

I am finding, though, that the more I do this, the more quickly I can recognize, at least in theory, what notes are where on the fretboard. I'm not at a point yet where I feel terribly comfortable reading straight from standard notation, but I'm getting the feeling that I need to rely less and less on TAB.

Anyone had similar experiences in learning how to work with standard notation for mando? Also, I'm sure there are faster ways to learn. What else has worked for all of you?

JeffD
Oct-29-2012, 2:04pm
Well when I started to read for mando I could already read for clarinet and bassoon. At first I used that experience as a middle step, as you are describing, and it was very frustrating for me.

Then I figured I would learn to read for mandolin the way I learned for clarinet. Which was to identify way points, and know where I am in terms of those way points.

So for example, learn where the open strings are on the staff. Practice those until you are solid. Then learn where the fifth fret of each string is on the staff. Practice a ton of things with just those notes, until you feel solid with all of that. It will take longer.

Lastly, after you are strong jumping around from open strings and fifth frets reading notation, learn where the second fret notes are on the staff. Work on all of that.

Your done. Most everything you play will be nearby one of those, so you will be able to think through those by what they are near.

Others will have their path. That one worked for me. Learn a bunch of way points and the rest will tag along.

veniatregnum
Oct-29-2012, 2:05pm
I've only been playing mando for a bit over a month, and wanted to do it right and learn standard notation in place of tabs from the beginning. What I've found the most helpful is just getting my scales down really well. Then it's relatively easy to be locked into the particular song's key and go by the intervals between notes (as opposed to reading each note name, then finding that note on the fretboard).

So for example if a song is in C - then I get my mind to think of the C scale on the fretboard and just go up and down the scale based on the intervals between the notes on the score. As I've been doing this I have also been finding it a bit easier to equate these steps and notes on the score to their particular name and position on the fretboard. I guess practice really is the best way to get good at something :)

If moving all the songs to TAB helps you figure it out, stick with it - I just wanted to dive in and not even have the TAB as a fallback; I figured I'd keep relying on it too heavily and not actually learn to get good at sight reading when needed.

Good luck in your practicing.

Jim Garber
Oct-29-2012, 2:05pm
Take out your pencil and mark the fingerings on whatever music you are working on. I assume that you are mostly playing in first position. I think you just need to do a lot more playing from the music until you are no longer thinking of the piano keyboard. I find that std notation in combination with fingerings can be just as effective as tab.

I think it is comparable to learning a language by immersion: you start by translating first from your native language but eventually can just naturally speak the one you are learning directly.

What kind of music are you trying to play? It might be quite helpful also to play something that you are already familiar with at least in your head.

Alyx Hanson
Oct-29-2012, 2:32pm
I have a couple of books that have music in both notation and tab (a couple of Allen Alexander's books, in particular, are what I play from the most). You're all right, I need to practice more. :)

veniatregnum
Oct-29-2012, 2:49pm
What kind of music are you trying to play? It might be quite helpful also to play something that you are already familiar with at least in your head.

Couldn't agree more, it's so much easier to know when you've hit the wrong note when you are already very acquainted with the song you're practicing.

SincereCorgi
Oct-29-2012, 4:21pm
Anyone had similar experiences in learning how to work with standard notation for mando? Also, I'm sure there are faster ways to learn. What else has worked for all of you?

I would suggest maybe going through the first three Suzuki violin books... that's what I did when I started mando and it was pretty painless. The exercises are geared toward teaching people the fingerings in escalating steps, so by the third book you're doing a little shifting and you've gotten to play some cute and familiar little pieces in the process.

Alyx Hanson
Oct-29-2012, 4:38pm
I should have thought of the Suzuki books! I'll have to track those down. Thanks!

Max Girouard
Oct-29-2012, 4:55pm
I knew how to read music before I started to play mandolin. I ended up buying a simple mandolin solo book that had a bunch of tunes that I was already familiar with in terms of how they were supposed to sound. I then taped off all the tab sections with blue tape so that I could not read the tab. I tried this without masking out the tab and found my eye always wandering down to the tab line. Once the tab was gone, I looked at the note and then had to find it on the mandolin. At first it was very slow, but after several weeks of this for about a half hour a day and I was able to play in first position without problems. I developed muscle memory just as I did for my other instruments and no longer had to think about where the note was on the fretboard. Once I looked at the note, my finger would just go to where it was supposed to be. This did present problems when I went to learn to play in other positions. I was used to playing in one position on a wood wind, so it was like re-learning where the notes were in other positions, but after repeated practice and sight reading I feel I could play anywhere on the neck after about two years time.

Jim Bevan
Oct-29-2012, 5:31pm
Or, get yourself a fretboard that looks like this ;)


93410

August Watters
Oct-29-2012, 5:52pm
The above posts deal mostly with the mechanics of finding the notes - i.e. translating the written note to the instrumental technique that produces the correct pitch. I see learning to read music as a two-step process. First, learning where the notes are, second, hearing them in your inner ear - so it's not necessary to play the notation to envision its sound.

Some folks have gone through the type of training that teaches association of written note to instrumental technique - but once you make that second step of "hearing" the notation in your inner ear, the process reverses: instead of using the instrumental technique to produce the sound, the instrumental technique results from your inner ear telling you where the sounds are.

Maybe I can graph that:
written note > instrumental technique > correct sound

over time, this can change to:
written note > correct "sound" > instrumental technique

Of course this is an oversimplification: we use both mechanical devices and inner-hearing skills to find the written notes.

Max Girouard
Oct-29-2012, 6:22pm
August, that is a really interesting technique. I have always had trouble trying to hear in my inner ear what was written on paper. My grandmother and mother could do it easily. When I look at a sheet of music I just see dot's and rely on my muscle memeory to get me to the right notes. I'm jelous of those that can see sheet music and "hear" it in their head. One thing that did help me was to be able to look at a measure and instead of read it as individual notes, I was able to translate it as a "word", the same way that you are probably not looking at every letter in this sentence but just glancing over the letters to form a word. I hope that makes sense! The one thing I have been lucky with is that I have been able to "play by ear" most tunes, not knowing what exactly I was playing in terms of notes, but being able to find them on the fretboard.

August Watters
Oct-29-2012, 7:14pm
I have always had trouble trying to hear in my inner ear what was written on paper. My grandmother and mother could do it easily.

That's an interesting comment - generational differences in abilities to read music - perhaps the result of the decline of sight-singing skills, once commonly taught to kids at the lower school levels?

Try this: find a major scale on your instrument, and mentally label the notes: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Now pick out "three blind mice" beginning on 3. Write out the melody in numbers like this:
3 2 1
3 2 1
5 44 3
5 44 3

Once you have numbers for all the notes (representing scale degrees), then write out the notes on the staff - this will help you to associate those scale degrees with positions on the staff. When you can perceive a written note in relation to its key - you'll be able to look at the note and envision its sound.

If you need help with the mechanics of notation, there are good tutorials here:
http://www.musictheory.net/

(of course, this is the sort of thing that's much easier to do in a group than alone!)

Hope this helps - good luck!

swampstomper
Oct-29-2012, 8:15pm
OK, time for my mandatory Lou Martin plug.... he is the man when it comes to advocating standard notation for the mando, and he has some excellent instruction material and (to motivate you) a really super tune book, all in standard notation. For the mando (or violin) standard notation can also have supplementary notes on which string to use, so if any fingering is not obvious the transcriber can indicate. Lou has done this. See http://www.louismartinmusicbmi.com/. I have had uncounted hours of pleasure working through his Tunebook. One quickly learns to associate notes on the staff with fingers on the mando.

Jim Bevan
Oct-29-2012, 8:24pm
I'm with August -- don't just play what you see; hear what you see, and play what you hear, but then, I'm one of those lucky old-enoughs who had the public school sight-singing, where a teacher showed up at least a couple of days a week for half an hour, wrote

r
d
t
l
s
f
m
r
d
t
on the blackboard, and just drilled us.

courses
Oct-30-2012, 3:34am
All the above notwithstanding, my experience learning to read notation was similar to RC's. Sort of painful, lots of crawling, hour upon hour of practice.

Followed by enlightenment, however, and a more fulfilling musical experience. It's more than just learning notes,it's also insight into how notes are related, the elements of harmony, prosody,etc. When you are ready to write your own ideas down, and convey them to others, those who can read will play them (pretty much) off the page.

Although there is a sort of division between readers and non readers, it's not always evident, or relevant either. Who was it that said "learn your instrument, practice everything, then forget it all and just play"

Personally I would rather be the one who has the most fun, than one who sweats details.

Michael Richmond
Oct-30-2012, 5:54am
Anyone had similar experiences in learning how to work with standard notation for mando? Also, I'm sure there are faster ways to learn. What else has worked for all of you?

I started playing mandolin after may years playing piano as a teenager followed by several years of not playing anything. The way I got the map of the fretboard to notation in my head (for first position) was to find notation for a simple melody and then noodle through that with my electronic tuner attached and turned on.

The tuner allowed me to poke around and think "ok, where is the B... pick, pick pick, ah there it is, now where is the D note above it.... pick, pick, ah there." With a few repetitions of working through that melody I ended up with understanding A, B, C, and D on the A string, and E and D on the D string. This first tune happened to be in the key of G, but something in D, C, or F would also be good starting tunes.

I then noodled around with another tune that was more focused on the D string. After poking around with the second tune I stopped using my tuner. This approach got me comfortable with finding notated notes in first position easily.

I regularly pull out the sheet for a new tune and try to work through it slowly. I view this as separate from my regular practice sessions. I'm starting to find that some tunes seem to be easier to navigate around if I move up the fretboard. I guess the notes needed for some keys are easier to finger up the neck.

pickloser
Oct-30-2012, 7:55am
On page 21 of the Bickford Mandolin Method (available for free here: http://archive.org/details/bickfordmandolin01bick) is a "Study for Locating Notes."

If you work thru this study until you can play it fluently, I believe you will have no trouble reading standard notation for the first seven frets of the mandolin ever again. The logic of the mandolin makes adding the notes up the neck not too difficult, once you are fluent in first position.

For folks completely new to standard notation, the pages leading up to the note location study explain notation and where the notes are on the mandolin.

bobby bill
Oct-30-2012, 8:36am
So for example if a song is in C - then I get my mind to think of the C scale on the fretboard and just go up and down the scale based on the intervals between the notes on the score.

To me, this is the key. Do not get bogged down in trying to name the note and then finding where that named note is on the fret board.

I would begin in the key of G since almost everyone can play a G scale shortly after picking up the mandolin. Find three reference points (as Jeff suggests) - the open G, the octave up (5th fret on the D string), and then the next octave up (3rd fret on the E string). Match these reference ponits to the treble clef, find a simple scale-like fiddle tune in G, and you are ready to go. Think of everything between your three reference points as scale-steps rather than letters (as Mr. Watters suggests).

So if the first two notes of your simple G fiddle tune are, for example, the second line from the bottom and the middle line, you know the first note is your middle G reference point (b/c you are locked in on your reference points). The payoff of the scale-step system comes in finding the next note. You could say, "let's see, after g, I have to start at a again so that would be a, then b, okay it's a b, now where is a b on my fret board . . . " Or you could say that the next note is obviously two scale steps up from your g, and you know your g scale, so . . . you are done.

When I learned to read, I looked for the easiest songs (usually contained within an octave and very few leaps more than a third). As I got comfortable with those, I expanded to wider ranges, greater leaps, and different keys.

As yet another person suggests, it is not long before your muscle memory kicks in and when you see a dot on the middle line, your first finger (pointer) just naturally wants to slam down on the second fret of the a string.

Good luck. You won't regret it.

veniatregnum
Oct-30-2012, 12:44pm
To me, this is the key

No pun intended? :whistling:

For some simple(ish) songs that may be really familiar (easy to hear when you get right or wrong) and sound great on a mando, I'd recommend learning some Christmas carols, they've really helped in my quest to get good at standard notation and will come in handy as the holiday season approaches. They're also readily available, lots of resources online or just pick up a hymnal.

JeffD
Oct-30-2012, 1:38pm
I'd recommend learning some Christmas carols, they've really helped in my quest to get good at standard notation and will come in handy as the holiday season approaches. They're also readily available, lots of resources online or just pick up a hymnal.


GENIUS! Exactly. Great idea. Also as you are learning you get this thrill as what you are picking, looking at the dots, suddenly becomes a recognizable. Great.

August Watters
Oct-30-2012, 1:59pm
To me, this is the key. Do not get bogged down in trying to name the note and then finding where that named note is on the fret board.

Good point! One of my favorite classroom exercises is to ask how many students have read in alto clef - usually none have. I explain finding where C is, and then count to find the root of a key. Since they don't know what the notes are called in that clef, they don't have a chance to get bogged down in thinking how to spell the notes - the only way to read the notes is to recognize intervals. Once they realize they can do that, then we go back to more familiar clefs, and they're able to read intervallically !

Jim Garber
Oct-30-2012, 2:06pm
August: that is very interesting. I am always amazed how some musicians can read in multiple clefs -- like cellists.

gauze
Nov-05-2012, 7:49am
some good info in here I've played guitar for about 27 years and never learned to read (which is pretty normal in a rock context, hendrix couldn't read music nor any of the beatles as far as I understand). Now that I want to read fiddle tunes I kind of need to learn. One thing I disagree about in here is learning familiar tunes, I always end up switching to learning it by ear, and not intentionally, my fingers just find the next note without comprehending what is on the page, I can't be the only one like this.

bwachter70
Nov-05-2012, 9:24am
I started out the same way as the OP. In fact I started playing the ukulele and am transferring a lot of the mandolin tunes I play to ukulele using a similar method. I still rely on tab a lot for some songs but the standard notation is starting to sink in more.

oneeyeross
Nov-05-2012, 10:30am
I learned to sight read for the fiddle with a beginning violin book. (a gift from the 2nd wife - the ability to read music). She gave me a copy of "The Rudiment and Theory of Music" from the Royal Academy. Best book ever for learning the fundamentals. Transferring to the mandolin was easy.

Randi Gormley
Nov-05-2012, 11:21am
I'd be another advocate of not taking that intermediate step of subvocalizing "A" (or whatever) when you play the note from the sheet. When I taught myself the mandolin from a book, I just saw the note on the staff, found it on the fretboard via the pictures in the book, and then attempted to play a series of those notes until it was in my fingers. It helps with sight-reading down the line if you're not subvocalizing the notes as you play them (like not thinking "a-n-d spells "and" when you write). The only downside is if someone asks me what note I'm starting on and I have to think about it for a minute since I just put the finger where it ought to be ...

Pete Braccio
Nov-05-2012, 11:57am
I'd recommend getting a copy of Standard Notation for the Tab-Addicted Mandolinist (http://www.stringthingm.com/Standard_Notation_Tab_Mando.html) by Debora Chen. It lays out a logical method to translate notation to the fretboard.

Pete

Miss Lonelyhearts
Nov-06-2012, 8:17pm
Here's a little mental map that helps for mandolin in first position: spaces on the stave are either open strings or middle finger, and lines are either index or ring finger.

The space below the stave is your open D string. The next space up is F (sharp or natural, think middle finger on 3rd or 4th fret). The next space up is your open A string. The next space up is c (sharp or natural, middle finger and 3rd or 4th fret again), and the next space up is your open e string. The space on the top of the stave is g (sharp or flat, middle finger, 3rd or 4th fret).

All the lines of the stave are either index finger (bottom line, middle line, and top line; 1st or 2nd fret, depending on the key) or ring finger (2nd line from the bottom and 2nd line from the top; 5th or 6th fret, depending on key). Notes on the G string follow this same pattern--lines are index or ring, spaces are middle finger or open.

Angela
Nov-07-2012, 10:08pm
I have never played a instrument before. I have been playing the mandolin for about 3 months now. I cant speak from someone who is transitioning over, but I am currently taking it one string at a time. I learn each note on every string up and down the fret board. I have taken two weeks (even though it dont take that long) and let it sink in. Its a little slow going, but this has seemed to work for me. Good Luck.

Angela
Nov-07-2012, 10:14pm
BTW - I am using the book " Mandolin Method Book 1" by Hal Leonard. Which is awesome. I never thought in a million years I would be reading music. Two months ago it all looked like gibberish. Even the simple stuff I'm on now. It may be a little to easy for you, since you already know how to read music.

God Bless
Angela

jmp
Nov-08-2012, 2:45pm
I'll echo the suggestion about the Suzuki violin books, they translate very well to mando since the tuning is the same. Just put in the hours and your proficiency will come with practice, practice, practice, but it does take months and even years to get those brain-muscle connections working so be persistent and don't get frustrated. Try to remove the piano visualization step as you move forward in these exercises.

Alyx Hanson
Nov-09-2012, 10:15am
I officially played a song last night reading solely from standard notation. (Granted, it was one I'd played before using tab, so I could tell pretty quickly when I'd hit a sour note, but still.) All the translating from tab got the piano image out of my head and let me translate the notes directly to mandolin. I'm still not as fast playing standard notation as I am playing tab, but that will come in time, I know. Meanwhile, it's making me slow down a bit and focus more on accuracy.

Thanks everyone for your input in this thread! I'm definitely going to see if I can acquire the Suzuki violin books from my library as soon as I've gotten myself a library card in this new city of mine. On that note, if anyone has favourite tune books they think I out to check out (I particularly like ITM, Scottish tunes, and folksy stuff; I'm a little less fond of bluegrass), let me know!

icuker
Nov-11-2012, 6:27am
I have had the same experience as guaze above. If the tunes are too familiar I stop actually reading the notes and start playing the tune by ear. I got this book for guitar from Berklee press and the point the author makes is that he did not put familiar tunes in there on purpose for that very reason. I still read some more familiar tunes though (christmas and hymns being in the mix)

mandocrucian
Nov-11-2012, 11:43am
I'd be another advocate of not taking that intermediate step of subvocalizing "A" (or whatever) when you play the note from the sheet. When I taught myself the mandolin from a book, I just saw the note on the staff, found it on the fretboard via the pictures in the book, and then attempted to play a series of those notes until it was in my fingers. It helps with sight-reading down the line if you're not subvocalizing the notes as you play them (like not thinking "a-n-d spells "and" when you write). The only downside is if someone asks me what note I'm starting on and I have to think about it for a minute since I just put the finger where it ought to be ...

The BIG PICTURE
The musician's goal regarding notation is that "sight-reading" should lead to "sight singing" (or "sight hearing"), rather than "sight-fingering".

VOCALIZE the note names (sung at the correct pitch, not just spoken) while you read/play them! This extra effort will ingrain the associations of the note names with the fretboard and the musical stave and the sonic pitch.

This will also give you most of your theory without having to "study" theory. You can sing the names of the notes of a particular scale as you play/read them. After 30 repetitions, you should know what notes are in that scale, plus your ear (mind) hears the notes in your head. "Words" + pitch turns the scale, or an arpeggio into a SONG or lyric. And that is one of the most durable and long-lasting forms of memory. (Patients with advanced Alzheimer's can usually remember and sing something like "The Alphabet Song" or "Three Blind Mice" when so much of their memory has evaporated).

Actual vocalization (singing it) is an active process requiring more brain circuitry to light up than "thinking" (or "sub-vaclizing") the pitch names, which is much more passive.

For vocaliztion purporses, I advocate using the European system for sharps and flats. Instead of singing an awkward two-syllable "C sharp" you merely alter the consonant ("C")with a certain suffix....."Cis") (pronounced 'cease'). D# becomes "Dis" (deece), G# = "Gis" ("geese", or "Jeez") E# = "Eis" (Eass), A# (Ais) is prouncounced "Ace". (You can still continue to use the American pronunciation of the letter names (which is different from the Euros.....i.e.: "Gee" vs. "geh" or "Bee" vs. "beh"))

Flatted notes get the "ess" suffix. Bb - B flat = Bes (bess), Db = Des (dess). Eb = Es (ess). Ab turns into "ass".

I adapted/adopted this after a couple trips to Finland 20 years ago, only to find a few years afterwards that the American Kodaly music education sytem had been using the same sharp/flat pronunciations for decades, for the very same reason.

The sooner in the musical learning/training process you begin to integrate the various facets of playing, the better (and it will be much better) it will be in the long run. The oft-heard of cases of "paper-trained" musicians who require sheet music for everything (and can play whatever is on the paper in front of them) and who fumble about with even the simplest tunes when playing by ear should be a warning. They've wired themselves for Eye-to-hand processing and developed lazy ear syndrome by overeliance on the visual, which gets more and more lopsided as time goes on.

(BTW, I think it is absolutely ridiculous (criminal even) that "sight-singing 101" is a college level course, rather than one that begins in 1st or 3rd grade, or even 6th grade.)

Hopefully, August Watters, who teaches ear-training, will also weigh in on this.

Niles H

SincereCorgi
Nov-11-2012, 2:43pm
I agree with the stuff Niles is saying in principle, but it can be tricky- a lot of times you'll have to switch octaves to accommodate your vocal range, and that superimposes a whole layer of non-mandolin difficulties like breathing, worrying about your vocal tone, how accurate your leaps are, etc. It's extremely valuable, but a lot of beginning players would overwhelmed. (I've tried getting some early students going on movable do solfege in order to impart some basic theory, but a lot of people just can't be bothered and look at you with this beseeching expression like "Why are you torturing me? I just want to play music.")

JeffD
Nov-11-2012, 3:55pm
people just can't be bothered and look at you with this beseeching expression like "Why are you torturing me? I just want to play music.")

When the average person sees a musician on stage, they don't see the effort it took to get on stage. It looks easy. The most natural thing in the world is to emulate the success, not necessarily to emulate the path to that success. Emulate someone who is good at it, but want to skip over emulating how that person got good at it.

I think this is a problem in the cultural generally, not just with music. I think if the amount of work and preperation that goes into any skilled endeavor were made explicit, lots of people would never even try. I have heard many say something similar.

What one hopes is that the journey is fun, or can be made to be fun. Or if success is the only goal, then enough feedback showing interim progress so that each increment of work feels rewarded.

swampstomper
Nov-11-2012, 5:55pm
What Niles says about passive (reading) vs. active (vocalizing) really struck a chord (!) with me, from another context. I teach at a University at the graduate level, and over the years I have discovered that students who take notes while listening to a lecture are *much* better at then applying what I (attempted to) communicate. So in my first lectures I tell them, even if you can find all the lecture materials on-line or as prepared handouts, while listening *write* -- not copy what I say but your own impressions, or even keywords. Indeed I am sure that this activates many more circuits in the brain -- using ones hands to write (or one's mouth to vocalize) mobilizes parts of the brain that move information from passive to active. Thanks to Niles for showing this from another side.

Also, since I live in Europe I'm familiar with the 'is' and 'es'.

One more point for the doubters about standard notation: the aim is to see the melodic line (horizontal) and/or harmonic structure (vertical), and that is independent of the instrument. I like to take Charlie Christian guitar solos and try them out on mando, and I take Jethro solos and try to find a near-equivalent on guitar. This is all possible because I have standard notation for both of those. And then it's a nice creative process to find the fingerings and positions that allow easiest/most fluent/nicest voicings on the particular instrument.

artilleryo
Nov-12-2012, 12:30pm
I could kind of read standard notation when I first started playing a couple of years ago. Using tabs speed up the process for getting sounds in a pleasing sequence out of my instrument. However, I was in a workshop yesterday in which the instructor handed out the tunes with and without tabs. Now I know my way around the first position pretty well so I can jump back and forth. I was at a workshop yesterday and found myself putting the tabs away because the standard notation gave me a better sense for the music.

That said, I follow the tabs fairly closely in when I'm doing exercises such as Finger Busters or Improvisational Concepts.

Alyx Hanson
Nov-12-2012, 1:14pm
The points about vocalizing notes are well taken. I have a rather odd singing range, so it's not always the easiest for me to sing the notes in the proper octave. But I am learning to at very least hear the notes in my head, which is making the process more interesting, and I'm sure, more beneficial to me.

I am hoping in a few months when my financial situation is a little less tenuous that I can take some group classes with a focus on learning tunes by ear. That was something I used to be pretty decent at on the piano, but it's been long enough that I'm essentially having to relearn the whole process.

gauze
Nov-18-2012, 12:11pm
this has encouraged me to learn to read music after 27 year, right now my strategy is to just read sheet music and name the notes in my head as I go until that becomes fluid then pick up the mandolin and start again. I have a cursory knowledge of notes on the fingerboard (transposing my knowledge of guitar in a mirror :D) so I think this will be reinforcing practice.

ralph johansson
Nov-21-2012, 5:55am
As for alto clef, wouldn't it be easiest to just thinking of it as sitting in the middle of grand staff. E.g., the high g is the g of the g clef, the low f is the f of the f clef, and the c is the c between the two staves; etc.

Back on topic. Seems the TS was much too bound to the piano in learning to read, setting up a 1-1 correspondence between notes and keys. My first instrument was the guitar where many notes can be played in several positions, and scales and chord forms are easily transposed along the neck. That sort of forces your mind to
focus on the meaning of the notes, raher than their physical places and approach reading in a theoretical manner. When I started on the mandolin, about about 8 years of the guitar I never used notation of any kind. I explored the fretboard in various keys; after having familiarized myself with the fretboard I could of course play the mando from sheet music. However, today I much prefer learning the song by heart from a score before playing it.

And no, I've never used tab. In the 60's, which is my Bluegrass and old-time period, the only way to learn a song was to pick it out from records.

neil argonaut
Nov-21-2012, 8:31am
The BIG PICTURE


VOCALIZE the note names (sung at the correct pitch, not just spoken) while you read/play them! This extra effort will ingrain the associations of the note names with the fretboard and the musical stave and the sonic pitch.

This will also give you most of your theory without having to "study" theory. You can sing the names of the notes of a particular scale as you play/read them. After 30 repetitions, you should know what notes are in that scale, plus your ear (mind) hears the notes in your head. "Words" + pitch turns the scale, or an arpeggio into a SONG or lyric. And that is one of the most durable and long-lasting forms of memory. (Patients with advanced Alzheimer's can usually remember and sing something like "The Alphabet Song" or "Three Blind Mice" when so much of their memory has evaporated).

Actual vocalization (singing it) is an active process requiring more brain circuitry to light up than "thinking" (or "sub-vaclizing") the pitch names, which is much more passive.

For vocaliztion purporses, I advocate using the European system for sharps and flats. Instead of singing an awkward two-syllable "C sharp" you merely alter the consonant ("C")with a certain suffix....."Cis") (pronounced 'cease'). D# becomes "Dis" (deece), G# = "Gis" ("geese", or "Jeez") E# = "Eis" (Eass), A# (Ais) is prouncounced "Ace". (You can still continue to use the American pronunciation of the letter names (which is different from the Euros.....i.e.: "Gee" vs. "geh" or "Bee" vs. "beh"))

Flatted notes get the "ess" suffix. Bb - B flat = Bes (bess), Db = Des (dess). Eb = Es (ess). Ab turns into "ass".



So if you're using the letters/sharps/flats rather than solfeg with movable do, is this with an aim to aquiring some kind of perfect pitch rather than just hearing scale relations?

Polecat
Nov-21-2012, 11:44am
I learnt to read music as a child, and cannot remember how difficult I found it - complicated rhythmic figures still sometimes take me a little time, if I'm unfamiliar with how they are meant to sound (try googling "Charlie Parker Omnibook" to see the sort of things I mean). In the past few years I've had the opportunity to try to teach a number of fellow musicians to read standard notation, and I've found notation software with a midi playback function very helpful. With the ability to vary the tempo it is possible to play/sing along with the music whilst watching (hopefully, reading) the notation. The program I use is called "PrintMusic!" and is published by Finale software. As far as I know, there is also a free downloadable version called Finale Notepad, which can be found here: http://www.finalemusic.com/NotePad/Default.aspx
As with all software, it takes a little time to learn to use, but it's fairly simple, and it is also possible to import midi files, view them as notation, and play along with them at a tempo of your choice.

mandocrucian
Nov-21-2012, 11:49am
So if you're using the letters/sharps/flats rather than solfeg with movable do, is this with an aim to aquiring some kind of perfect pitch rather than just hearing scale relations?

No, .....though you could also do it that way. I use both systems - movable do and pitch names, which give you slightly different data content.

Sol-feg is invaluable (for the ear), but knowing the (key)specifics of pitch names for chord arpeggios, scales etc. is great for the theory end. (In fixed do solfeg, where do is always C, the syllables are the pitch names - and this is what is used in many Mediterranean countries - Greece, Italy etc.)

For example: Sing, with the instrument a major scale do re mi fa so la ti do up and down a couple of times. Then switch to the actual pitch names (say it's D major) d e fis g a b cis d. And then back and forth.

Same idea for chord arpeggios: do mi so te ri >>> d fis a c ees (D F# A C E#) which is D7#9. You ingrain the relative pitch of that particular chord with the sol-feg, which can be used on any root, but then you can get specific with the note names.

Think of the sol-feg as the first verse of a melody, and then the pitch names as the second verse. They aren't really in conflict. Remember that use (singing not speaking) of symbolic syllables/names is to engage the logic/language circuits in the brain in addition to the non-language/sonic circuits. (Gives you memorized cue cards for when your purely sonic memory/though gets stuck.)

However vocalizations, as a training tool, don't need to only be restricted to pitch-related content. It can be rhythmic counting, or sounds mimicing percussion sounds/grooves. (plenty of this in non-European music) Or in can be articulation related - slurring, staccato etc (something wind players have to do since they are pushing air to power their instrument).

Niles H

Jim Garber
Nov-21-2012, 12:05pm
The BIG PICTURE
The musician's goal regarding notation is that "sight-reading" should lead to "sight singing" (or "sight hearing"), rather than "sight-fingering".

Niles: do you know of any online or DVD/CD course that teaches this system? I am at the stage where I can read reasonably well and even can interpret without an instrument what a piece of music sounds like rhythmically, but I still can;t hear the tones in my head from looking at a sheet of music.

SincereCorgi
Nov-21-2012, 1:10pm
Or in can be articulation related - slurring, staccato etc (something wind players have to do since they are pushing air to power their instrument).

Ha, it's funny you mention that- when I first started playing mandolin I found myself moving my lips and jaw and sort of drooling a bit when working out articulations. It's funny what gets wired together in your brain.

fatt-dad
Nov-21-2012, 6:08pm
this thread (several weeks ago) triggered my re-attempts to learn standard notation. I figured if I know the key and there are no accidentials all the notes would be from the scale of that key. I also figured (being a singer in the church choir) that I can "see" the steps up and down on the clef and tell whether I'm bouncing up one, two, three or more notes. Basically, I took the approach of "singing" the mandolin. I tried this on some sheet music of tunes I know and then tackled a tune I'd never heard.

It worked.

I'm still going slow though, but I just don't go from defining the note on the music, translating that to a string and fret and then taking some fingering action.

(as a slight aside, when I played french horn it was essential to hear the note before playing it - just like singing. I think that's the end game, if you have a fairly good ear.)

f-d

neil argonaut
Nov-21-2012, 7:24pm
Thanks a lot Niles - I now remember you posting something similar in another thread but got a bit confused by the change of Avatar (it's you that used to be playing a flute in the picture, right?); That seems like an excellent approach to flick between the two. Unfortunately I can't start on it yet due to injuring my voice, but as soon as it's back to normal I'll be reading and rereading your post.

What about chord degrees - I know you said you'd sing the chord arpeggios, but would you ever sing a song replacing the lyrics with the solfeg symbols, but moving the doh with the chord changes? I gather a good musician should be able to simultaneously hear a note as a certain scale degree of the key the tune is in, but also as a certain scale degree of the chord playing at that time, but don't really know which to pursue first.

Edited to add: Sorry if this is straying a bit OT

mandocrucian
Nov-22-2012, 12:01am
but would you ever sing a song replacing the lyrics with the solfeg symbols, but moving the doh with the chord changes?

Any melody, whether originally instrumental or one with lyrics, can be vocalized with the sol-feg syllables. No, you don't move the do with the changes. Sure, a major triad arpeggio will have the same internal relationship between root and 3rd and 5th, but you'd still sing the IV chord with fa (fa-la-do) and the V with so (so-ti-re) as the chord roots.

It's not nearly as complicated as it might appear. A I-IV-V-I progression (in arpeggio form):

|| do-mi-so |fa-la-do | so-ti-re | do-mi-so ||
There it is, the "song lyric" to I-IV-V. Just memorize it as you would a fragment of the elementary school addition or multiplication table

My advice is to take simple songs/tunes you already know and write out the solfeg syllable above the notation or tab, and get comfortable with the system that way, and let various melody fragments, arpeggios, scales become embedded in your memory. These will become reference points to "deduce" sight-singing other stuff from notation. (I mean if you've gotten a I chord arpeggio from one song, you'll know it when it invariably occurs again in an another. "Soldier's Joy" will embed that for you. |so-mi-do-mi so-mi-do-mi | so do do |)

@Jim: I'm not really familiar with any of the on-line ear training stuff out there. I never particularly cared for the way Matt Glaser approached it on his Homespun Tapes. Take simple tunes/songs, or bass lines in progression form and work out the syallables by logic (i.e. do=1 re=2 mi=3rd etc.), write them down, and then sing them with your instrument, which will help keep your voice on pitch. And start with stuff that you've already known by heart since you were a kid - "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", "Three Blind Mice", "Mary Had A Little Lamb", "Old MacDonald Had A Farm" etc. (It might be helpful at first to restrict yourself to doing things in just one key, if working with notation.)

Don't worry about "book studying" or trying to "cram" this stuff; it's counterproductive - just do the drills and sing the ditties until you "know" the "lyrics" of the tune. Sense of it will begin to emerge on it's own - your brain will start to connect stuff on the sub-conscious levels.

There are two ways minor keys are approached in solfeg - either as "relative minor" (rooted on La) or as "parallel minor" (rooted on Do). I prefer the Do-rooted minor, because it highlights the contrast between it and the major - which is only three notes out of the seven (me vs. mi, le vs. la, te vs. ti) (me prounounced "may", le pronounced "lay")

Niles H

And, this stuff is done as an AID to (really) implanting the sounds in your head (and tying it to basic theory). Most of the time, you won't think in terms of the syllables when playing, unless you need a "cue card/memory prompt"