Pickup FAQ??

[CindyB]

I'm looking for general information on choosing a pickup for my Eastman MD515. I'm looking for sound characteristics and reliability of the various pickups that are available. I use K&K pickups on my basses, but I'm not sure how much my bass experiences would translate over to mandolin. Preamp-wise, I'd probably go with an L.R. Baggs. I had issues with K&K bass preamps, but again, I've no idea if my previous experiences are valid in this context.

[Roger Kunkel]

I have tried:

Schertler Dyn-M and found it too mid-range-y
Baggs Radius and found it too thumpy.
K&K Twin Spot and found the output too low.
K&K Mandolin Twin and found it just right.

[Mandobart]

Click on the "advanced search" text right up there above the V-Picks ad. Make sure you have nothing else planned for a few hours and search all posts in the equipment forum for "pickup".

[mandroid]

There are A lot of makers of Piezo-electric type pickups. most buy that type..

They need a Preamp with a high buffer impedance.

the other category of transducers, use a mechanism type which has a corresponding mechanism,
in the Microphone world, just the diaphragm is the soundboard
Vibrating rather than responding to air pressure variations.

[Astro]

I'm guessing you already read this but Ill link it for you just in case.

The JBB (which I learned about from mandobart' postings) works great on my Eastman MD 305.

Less than 30 bucks delivered for the dual transducer.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?89556-jjb-acoustic-pick-up

[mandomedic]

I recently bought a couple of Realist pickups for mandolin based on my experience with their upright bass pickups. They fit under the feet of the bridge as do their bass pickups. I like the sound, but I feel even though the output is great that one should still use a preamp that allows some tweaking of EQ. If you have a heavy right hand, you'll need to EQ the low end to get the pumping or thumping under control. I've tried everything else and the Realist is my first choice. I think the best way would be a Realist with a Country Max or other high end mic through a Rane blender, which has EQ and shelving... If you're just going for volume then just the Realist.

[CindyB]

That's interesting. I tried a Realist on my bass and didn't care for it, but the idea is more appealing for mandolin. I'll have to look more closely at that. I use a Radial PZ-Pre preamp with my bass. I may see how that works with mandolin. It's got an awesome DI built in.

[mandomedic]

That's interesting. I tried a Realist on my bass and didn't care for it, but the idea is more appealing for mandolin. I'll have to look more closely at that. I use a Radial PZ-Pre preamp with my bass. I may see how that works with mandolin. It's got an awesome DI built in.

Cindy, have you had a chance to try the Realist with your Radial pre amp yet?

[tablaninja]

I use the K&K Mando Twin with the Red-Eye preamp. sounds great!

[Richie Foley]

I've been two or three years trying to find the perfect combination of pick-up and mic etc. I started with a Fishman Bridge pick-up with a Fishman blender and Countryman Mic - I found the bridge pickup really not that good and the combination difficult in louder envoirnments. I moved onto maybe getting a bridge made that a Fishman Matrix could be fitted but this wasn't an option either for an archtop mandolin. I tried K and K with a Tonebone Pre Z and found that this was a combination that I might get results from and I also looked at adding a DPA mic to the equation. But also a few months back I had got a Mi - Si for a trial period. I spent the last few days messing around with all this gear , mainly concentrating on the K and K and Tonebone . But when I tried the Mi-SI and Tonebone together the results were fantastic !! Great tone and a fantastic response all over the neck , every note sang. I also added a Boss EQ pedel in the loop and this added a more acoustic feel to the whole sound . The Mi-Si sounds like Mic quality at times , it sounds better than the blender combination. I played a gig last night and it was a joy to finally play the mandolin live ' effortless ' , I could get great results from all over the fretboard. I play a Pheonix Bluegrass mandolin

Richie

[Astro]

This is the one where you have to wedge the sensor piezo disc between bridge and saddle using shims so that it is under pressure ? That seems a little tricky. Do you have any pics you could post ?

Cool idea about a precharge and no need for batteries or external box.

Actually, so far I found my surface mount JJB sounds pretty good without a preamp. Its not pressure dependent so just sticks on with putty. Plenty of volume and no need for any power.

I'd love to have a day of A/B ing all these options.

[Polecat]

I use an AKG C411 (http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,272,pid,272,nodeid,2,_language,EN.ht ml) directly into the mixer, and I'm very happy with the sound. My one criticism of the transducer is the very thin 3 meter lead it comes with - it is definitely not robust enough to survive life on stage. I solved the problem by clipping it short, replacing the XLR voltage regulator plug with a female stereo jack which hangs of the strap button. As an "instrument cable" I've got a length of heavy-duty low-capacitance mike cable, with AKG's voltage regulator XLR on one end (soundboard) and a stereo jack plug on the other.

[Mike Bunting]

I use an AKG C411 (http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,272,pid,272,nodeid,2,_language,EN.ht ml) directly into the mixer, and I'm very happy with the sound. My one criticism of the transducer is the very thin 3 meter lead it comes with - it is definitely not robust enough to survive life on stage. I solved the problem by clipping it short, replacing the XLR voltage regulator plug with a female stereo jack which hangs of the strap button. As an "instrument cable" I've got a length of heavy-duty low-capacitance mike cable, with AKG's voltage regulator XLR on one end (soundboard) and a stereo jack plug on the other.
I'm a fan of the C411 too. I use the model with just the XLR and use the phantom from an Headway Preamp or from the phantom source on an AER amp. I keep the thinner lead coiled up pretty small and attached to my strap and just a low Z mic cord from there.

[mandroid]

My External Schertler also uses a thin cable ["kevlar reinforced"]. I too coil it up.
and use a standard Microphone cable, onward, for all the stepping on and tripping over ..

Saw a Snapjack with a Stereo/ balanced cable . in proposed offerings .
but only saw instrument cables actually stocked ..
they created a Magnetic & interchangeable end, that had the magnet release,
rather than ,say ,
pulling your 'stack Of Marshals' over , when stumbling over the cable..

Someone had one of those, hot swapped Guitar's pickup signal
when they were the Front singer/player, on a shared cable to the PA.

the magnet end sticks nicely to the Mic Stand, so the next user
wont have to reach far to find it.

[Polecat]

I tried the coiled-up cable approach, but found the XLR connector (when did they stop being called "cannons"?) too big and clunky (I like to pretend I'm a rock star on stage and jump around a lot), hence the Stereo Jack (http://www.eurobaltronics.com/eng/products/neutrik-female-jack-cable-stereo-nj3fc6-jb160.html), it locks the plug in, so there's no danger of embarassing yourself by stepping on your cable (I can see the point of Snapjacks at the amp end of a cable, but plugged in to your instrument, it seems to me you're a laughing-stock waiting to happen). The whole arrangement is firmly attached to a 4" lengt of belt-leather which hangs down from the endpin.
To get back to the C411, although its not as cheap as the piezo transducers, it sounds perfectly good run directly into the sound-board - with a piezo the signal needs to go into a high impedance preamp with suitable eq - by the time you've bought that piece of gear on top of your pickups, you may as well have got a good-quality condenser contact mike (what the C411 is); you've got only one piece of kit to break, lose or go wrong instead of two (my experience is that on stage, nothing lasts for ever).
I've never had a piezo pick-up I was happy with (but that is a matter of taste, other members seem quite content with theirs), and I've never had the opportunity to try the high-end Schertlers (well out of my price category), but I find the AKG does the job pretty well. I play in a trio with bass and percussion - we play anything from traditional ballads to proto-punk and I use a variety of techniques, not just the "sweet-spot no pick noise" approach to playing the mandolin. The pickup does the best job I've found of reflecting this.

[Mandobart]

Just run the cable thru a beltloop before plugging in. You won't yank it out. Can't promise you won't pull your pants down.

[mandroid]

I have a Vest with a Zipper on the Pocket. to stuff in the cable plug combination.

I have the Schertler .. Not noticing a mids boost, that I could not EQ out ..



Maybe polecat's next step is wireless so there is less restriction
of movement on his Dance numbers .

I expect there is a wireless transmitter battery, to supply power for itself
and the Phantom power for the mic/pickup.

[Trip]

I tried the K&K Mando twin on my newest aquisition and works/sounds good but it is such a different setting for eq/volume than my regular gig-mando(which has the Fishman bridge p/u) that I am changing it so they will be interchangeable on stage.....so if you want a deal on a KK mando twin, message me.....

[Polecat]

Maybe polecat's next step is wireless so there is less restriction
of movement on his Dance numbers .

I expect there is a wireless transmitter battery, to supply power for itself
and the Phantom power for the mic/pickup.

I believe AKG does indeed offer a wireless system, but in certain aspects, I'm a "Style before Content" guy. If I could only find one of those seventies spiral leads with a twin core and acceptable capacitance - that would be totally groovy!

[redrector]

I'm a fan of the C411 too. I use the model with just the XLR and use the phantom from an Headway Preamp or from the phantom source on an AER amp. I keep the thinner lead coiled up pretty small and attached to my strap and just a low Z mic cord from there.

I have a old fishman blender i think the phantom power is only 8 volts wondering if thats enough? I also have a macki 808s pa with 24v phantom supply it powers my akg cs1000 ok wondering if it power the c411, it wouldnt power a shertler i tried once and didnt like. I would like to go through my blender first then pa ,blender is 1/4 jack guess i would have to adapt.

[RichardF]

On my Breedlove OF, I have a Fishman m200 fitted. Whether I'm running into the PA via my AP10 pre amp or into my Trace Elliot TA100, it can be incredibly clicky. There is a solution. By accident during a quick change one night I left my old Martin VTC on the lead and hey presto the click was gone. For those without very long memories the Martin VTC is/was a passive stacked volume and tone control which plugs into the end pin jack socket. I've no idea why it removes the click but it does so I'll use it.

[Chip Booth]

I have a old fishman blender i think the phantom power is only 8 volts wondering if thats enough? I also have a macki 808s pa with 24v phantom supply it powers my akg cs1000 ok wondering if it power the c411...

The C411 is specd to run off 9-52 volts so you you should be fine with the Mackie.


I also have a macki 808s pa with 24v phantom supply it powers my akg cs1000 ok wondering if it power the c411, it wouldnt power a shertler i tried once and didnt like.

Not sure what you mean, a Shertler does not require phantom power.

My experience with the Shertler is that I can get a pretty good sound from it with some mixers, especially an older A&H I use, but I do a lot of EQing. I am very happy with it as long as I have tons of at least two bands of good sweepable EQ, and I am guessing a good impedance match is part of the secret as well. If not, it is seriously clunky sounding.

My favourite pickup so far is a mystery pickup that came on mandolin I bought from a memebr here. He told me he had just had it installed and it was an internal twin mount thing like the K&K, but I was told it is a Pickup the World. It has since died on me. I have researched it and can't find any new or old PUTW model that resembles it.

[mandroid]

Not sure what you mean, a Shertler does not require phantom power.

the Company also sells the Basik, an electrostatic, condenser type,
so May be true, IDK.

But the Dyn series is a dynamic pickup, transducer, like Shure SM 57/58
is a Dynamic category Microphone.


If the Mids need attenuation, on Schertler's Dyn type, as commented occasionally,
Mixer channel's 3 band EQ may be sufficient.
roll off the mid, boost the Low and High band to suit your hearing desire.


a body/soundboard pickup, ISTM, would be less 'clicky' than one right under the strings,
in the top of the bridge. mechanical proximity.

[redrector]

my mistake i had a dpa 4099 mike that needed full 48 v not the shertler

[redrector]

I'm a fan of the C411 too. I use the model with just the XLR and use the phantom from an Headway Preamp or from the phantom source on an AER amp. I keep the thinner lead coiled up pretty small and attached to my strap and just a low Z mic cord from there. Mike i thought the c411 came with a mini xlr do you adapt to a regular mike cord then to pre amp? bob

[Polecat]

I'm not Mike, but you are partly right, redrector - AKG produce 2 models of the C411: the C411 PP, which has a standard XLR connector, which contains a pcb with a voltage regulation circuit and is spec.ed for 9-52 V; then there is the C411 L which has a mini XLR and is intended for use with various phantom power units produced by AKG. AKG does not mention the voltage required to power the C411 anywhere (I suspect this is deliberate), but I measured 9V on the mike-side of the voltage regulator, so thats probably what the units for the C411 PP provide.

[Mike Bunting]

Mike i thought the c411 came with a mini xlr do you adapt to a regular mike cord then to pre amp? bob
There are two models, the C411 PP comes with a standard XLR connector.
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,272,pid,272,nodeid,2,_language,EN.ht ml
Oops, I answered the last post on page one w/o reading the first post on page 2

[mandroid]

And the Mixer Phantom power source is voltage regulated by the IC in the AKG cable end..

[Mike Bunting]

And the Mixer Phantom power source is voltage regulated by the IC in the AKG cable end..
You always mention this but I'm not sure of the relevance or what it means in terms of performance.. My 411 PP has always worked fine through my Headway Pre, my AER amp and through all kinds of boards from here to the Netherlands.

[mandroid]

As Quoted
"the C411 is specd to run off 9-52 volts''

the Voltage it actually needs to operate is likely near to the lower figure..

isn't USB at about 5V? that is probably too low..

[redrector]

Thanks polecat for the info. I guess you still need phantom power in the preamp -pa even with the regulated plug is that correct? I would like to go to my fishman blender first it only has 1-4 phono plug and 8v designed for a piezo and crown mini mike but the pa it ends up with has 24v. What would the best way to modify the cable for that install.

[mandroid]

YES, BUT the other version, has a miniaturized plug to hook up exclusively,
with their battery operated power supply/blender, ie, 2 inputs .

then, it supplies the plate charge power. you have to choose which .. it's an Either/ Or..
standard XLR, outside power,or, the battery blender and a plug made
so you cannot accidentally use it with too much power..

Source: Reading the online manual.

[Polecat]

Thanks polecat for the info. I guess you still need phantom power in the preamp -pa even with the regulated plug is that correct? I would like to go to my fishman blender first it only has 1-4 phono plug and 8v designed for a piezo and crown mini mike but the pa it ends up with has 24v. What would the best way to modify the cable for that install.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but to my knowledge, what you want to do is impossible - for the C411 to work, both the hot and cold leads need to be powered relative to ground, and the unbalanced input to your preamp would allow only for the hot lead to be powered (the cold lead is generally connected to ground in this case). If you are determined to use the C411 (which I think is an excellent choice), I would recommend that you try plugging directly into the soundboard; that is my solution and I'm very happy with it. If you are set on having the Fishman in your signal chain, you could:
a) Remove the voltage-control XLR plug (be sure to take note which wire goes where before unsoldering anything), and connect the screen and one of the signal-carrying wires to the sleeve of a phono jack, the other wire to the tip, plug it in and see if it works - if, as I suspect, it doesn't, try reversing the signal-carrying leads; I may be wrong and one of these solutions will work. I don't think that you will damage the microphone, but I wouldn't be prepared to swear to it in court.
b) Buy a 48V phantom power unit to put in front of the Fishman preamp, and use the C411 as the manufacturers intended, or consider another preamp/DI that provides phantom power. Many people find the ART Tube MP a good solution - our bass player uses one, and I've tested it, it certainly isn't detrimental to the sound of my mandolin, but I wouldn't say it improved it, either.

EDIT: I forgot to say that if my description reads like chinese, try googling "XLR unbalanced" and "Phantom Power", you'll find the information you need - it's not rocket science, and I'm of the opinion that anyone who uses ampflication on stage should have a basic understanding of audio, it makes life a lot simpler.

[mandroid]

If you want to use your Fishman Pre, You have to use a Piezo,
or the Battery powered Condenser rig..

Schertler Dyn series , can run in an unbalanced cable , you short the return and ground together,
so lose the separation of shield and signal, to reduce potential RFI.

[redrector]

thanks again polecat, it looks like its much easyier to go direct to pa and eq there like you stated instead of fishman. Currently i use a akg c1000 and move into it for a boost and better sound which it is but the other two members play rock electric some of the time so i use a piezo to be heard .i hate the sound and i have tryed a few different ones also different preamps i really think it is the pickup that i dont like its a mcyintyre but its better than others i tryed and where you place them is critical which i hate .It seems every time is different even in same room. I like the electric sound johnny gimble had i think he used a gibson em150 i think but he modifyed the tuning ,pickups ect. thanks again.

[mandotim1955]

If you buy the C411L you need the proprietary AKG adapter, which also regulates the voltage to the mic. I use this setup into a Headway EBD1 preamp (which provides phantom power, along with much else). The C411PPP works straight into the mixer desk (assuming there is phantom from the desk). I use the former, and I'm very happy with the sound.

[mandroid]

I like the electric sound johnny gimble had i think he used a gibson em150 i think but he modifyed the tuning ,pickups

yea, the magnetic /coil of wire P90 Pickup is a whole different category, the tuning is Ala Viola .

[redrector]

Mandotim do use the power adapter or two 9v batt?Use must use the xlr input for c411 , do use the 1-4 jack for anything and do you find it necessary to use all that eq available? redrector

[Perry]

If the Mids need attenuation, on Schertler's Dyn type, as commented occasionally,
Mixer channel's 3 band EQ may be sufficient.
roll off the mid, boost the Low and High band to suit your hearing desire.


I have found that rolling off the lows (as well as mids) is what the Schertler and mandolin pick-ups need in general. I think our tendency is to make the mandolin have low end that it really does not have.

I also boost the highs a bit with the Schertler...now with the ToneBone Pre-Z I leave the board flat and handle all that on the floor.

I find the Low Cut filter on the Tone Bone to do marvelous things to the Schertler.

[Mike Bunting]

I have found that rolling off the lows (as well as mids) is what the Schertler and mandolin pick-ups need in general. I think our tendency is to make the mandolin have low end that it really does not have.

The Headway has range settings for guitar, bass and fiddle ( or mandolin). The fiddle setting will attenuate upper bass frequencies below 192 hz.