headstock break glue choice?

[otterly2k]

Hi all-
I have an OM here with a classic headstock break. It's not broken cleanly off-- in fact it was probably the headstock overlay that kept it from snapping off. So I'm faced with getting glue into the crack from where it's wider (at the back of the neck) all the way up to where it's pretty hairline (up by the overlay near the first pair of tuner holes).

I'm leery of using HHG b/c I don't have a lot of experience with it, and if I don't get it just right and the glue cools, I would have to do more damage in order to clean out and try again. I was planning to use wood glue, but then a friend of mine (a bowyer and purveyor of violins) suggested that for strength and longevity with an injury like this, gorilla glue or epoxy would be better.

I have read many glue debates here... I'm aware of some of the advantages and disadvantages of the various glue choices... wondering if this particular kind of break would warrant leaning in a particular direction, given the direction of the string tension and pressures, and the fact that I want to try to get the glue to wick up in to the very narrow part of the crack.

Thanks in advance for your advice.
KE

[sunburst]

I would use (you guessed it...) HHG, and frankly, nothing else.
It is not as difficult as some seem to think.
First thing, of coarse is to have your clamping procedure planned and practiced.
With a good, fresh batch of glue in a pot at +/-140 150 degrees, warm the part to about 90 degrees and warm the room you are working in (easier in summer!). Don't put a hot lamp right on the part so the surface gets too hot before the part is heated through, just slowly and gently heat the part until it is warm through. No need to measure the temperature, if it feels warm to the touch (like a living thing) it is OK. So, with the glue ready, the clamping procedure ready and the part warmed, work the glue into the crack. You can use a squirt bottle, plastic pipette, palette knives, open and close the crack, whatever it takes to get glue all the way in the crack. You have plenty of time, the part is warm so the glue won't gel. When glue is all the way into the crack, clamp the joint, clean off the glue squeeze out with a clean, warm, damp rag, and just leave it clamped over night. That's all there is to it.

OH, and...
Gorilla glue:
Not very strong in tests, makes a visible glue line and even foams if not clamped very tightly, miserable to clean up and can make a big mess. I wouldn't consider using it for this.
Epoxy:
Thick and viscous, hard to get deep into a tight crack o split, difficult clean-up unless the finish is acetone resistant, should be handled with gloves to avoid skin contact, can make a big mess. If there is an advantage, it is open time, but as we've already discussed, HHG provides plenty of working time if the part and the room are warm.

[testore]

Gorilla glue should never be used, NEVER! If you think you may have trouble with HHG then Gorilla glue poses more threats. It swells while it cures and can completely undo all of your clamping test runs. Since the overlay is still intact, then using HHG is easy. If you do screw it up there is no damage in undoing it and trying again, simply wash it off with water. I have mis glued many joints and redone them with ease by a simple water cleanup. There is no other glue that affords you this luxury. HHG is the only glue I use when strength is needed. If you need to, take it to the many professionally trained violin makers that you have in Philly who have experience with HHG, it is not a difficult repair and shouldn't cost very much. Epoxy is a disaster too, I hate using it mostly because of the cleanup. HHG has been tested for hundreds and hundreds of years, it is simply the only glue that should ever be used for restoring, because it can be redone with ease. And I don't care how good the repair is, all repairs need to be redone at some point. HHG is the only glue that makes this possible because of it's cleanup.

[otterly2k]

Yeah, I really was inclined not to use Gorilla glue or epoxy, but wondered whether she knew something I didn't.

Maybe I'll just have to take a deep breath and try the HHG. I have only used HHG before in a workshop where the instructor had done the original mixing of the glue... so I guess as long as I mix it properly, the rest of the procedure is not that different, and I am familiar with the process of warming the part and doing dry runs of the clamping.

[sunburst]

Karen, talk to Don. He watched me glue a split in a citern top with HHG at Holiday Lake a couple of years ago. I had plenty of time, didn't have to hurry, and it turned out fine. He was a little bit HHG leery too and I think he was surprised how easy it actually was.

[otterly2k]

Thanks to both of you for the encouragement.

[kjbllc]

there are a couple of really good HHg articles on the net. Fear not, it is very easy to work with, just have to keep it temp and time in mind.


http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html

[belbein]

Personally, I love epoxy. I use it for everything. But then I've been working with it for 15 years and feel comfortable with it, knowing what it will do and won't do, and how to clean it up. On the other hand, I've only tried HHG a few times and just don't like it, or--as some people here will point out--I don't understand it. I plead guilty. But with a repair that I'm not going to have to undo and I want to last until the Cockroaches (or Bass Players) take over the world--at this point it's epoxy for me.

[StuartGold]

Wouldn't Titebond #1 be a good choice for this?

[mirwa]

I use titebond, my shop repairs approx 3-5 headstock breaks a week.

If the break is across an area less than 1 inch, then this is your worse case scenario break, you need to reglue and then insert some splines up the neck and into the headstock.

If the break is greater than 1 inch and runs with the grain, then simple glue up and clamp up will suffice

Go to my website and click guitar page, at the bottom is a taylor with a snapped neck, move your mouse over the image for before and after, this was repaired solely with titebond and clamps. That guitar was over a year ago.

[StuartGold]

When I built my first guitar, I did something to cause the neck to crack at the heal. It was a short crack (maybe an inch) but with string tension, it came apart just enough see the crack. I kept the string tension and added a bit of my own ( a bit tricky) to cause as much separation as possible without snapping the neck and forced titebond #1 as far into the crack as possible with an Xacto knife and an air compressor. I then removed the strings and clamped overnight. When I buffed it out, you couldn't even see the crack line and it's been perfect for a few years now. Using an air compressor to push the glue in, really seemed to help.

[ProfChris]

If you use HHG then a domestic hair dryer will work for warming the joint. I'd want to get it hotter than 90F (not too hot to hold comfortably, but hot enough to feel nice and warm in the hand) and then put HHG into the gap, work the gap back and forth to drive it to the bottom, wipe away what runs out, repeat. Then clamp and clean up.

The big advantage of HHG glue here is that it won't start to thicken until the heat drops, and making the joint a little hotter gives all the time you need to get the glue into all parts of the crack.

[mandomedic]

I use both Hot Hide Glue and Tightbond in my shop. For those that are not used to using HHG, regular and fresh Tightbond does a very good job. Working the glue into all of the affected area is your first challenge. Getting good clamping on the break area is your next challenge. When the glue is satisfactory, then clean up immediately with a damp warm rag to remove the excess glue. Pay attention to the line up of the broken area when you are doing your glue up regardless of what glue you use.

[kkmm]

I fixed broken head stock on a mandolin using HHG. It's clean and cap sip thru the cracks easily if the head stock is warmed up.
I still play this mandolin, it holds up pretty good.

[otterly2k]

I think I'm going to try HHG, but Titebond was definitely my other viable choice. FWIW the crack is greater than an inch and runs with the grain. The headstock faceplate stayed intact and is holding the pieces essentially in place, so that makes alignment of the pieces a little easier.

Thanks, Prof, for the hair dryer tip. It may be a little while before I get to this project, but I will post about how it goes when I do.

[sunburst]

If you can get to it sooner rather than later it is better. The longer the surfaces are exposed to light and air with all it's associated dirt and junk, the more chance that the bond will not be the best it can be.

[ProfChris]

Thanks, Prof, for the hair dryer tip.

You may need to smuggle it to the workbench. Many wives/daughters react badly to the word "glue" used in conjunction with their hairdrier.

[Bill Snyder]

Prof, Karen is a woman and can probably get away with borrowing the hairdryer.

[Pete Jenner]

I do the following with a good degree of success.
If there is more than one hair dryer in the house, deliberately get caught using the best one. Then they will offer to give you the cheaper one and hey presto not only do you have your very own gluing hair dryer but you will be the best groomed woodworker/luthier in town.

Tip: Watered down HHG makes great hair gel and will keep you looking good for months.

[Bernie Daniel]

Anyone know off hand a published test of wood glues that compares the actual holding strength of HHG versus aliphatic versus urea-stabilized liquid hide glue? Seems to me all of them create bond that is stronger than the wood itself?

[sunburst]

I did see a published study recently... I'll see if I can find it.
The problem with glue studies in general is that they only test under near-ideal conditions of temperature and humidity and the test of the joint is to failure in tensile strength or sheer strength. The main differences in HHG and AR is in resistance to heat and resistance to creep, and though AR glue generally shows higher strength, it is more susceptible to dry heat and to plastic deformation (creep) under constant strain (like string tension). Both can be said to be "stronger than the wood itself!" in their proper temperature ranges.

Here's a little "experiment" I tried once.
I prepared two pairs of wood blocks for glue joints, put them in the freezer until they were cold, then "glued" them with tap water, clamped the joints and put them back in the freezer. The next day I took them out of the freezer, removed the clamps and "tested" one of the joints by clamping in a vise and whacking with a hammer. When the joint failed, it was the wood that failed, not the water/glue. My conclusion? Tap water is "stronger than the wood itself!", but only in it's proper temperature range. I left the other "glued" piece on the work bench, and in half a day or so the joint failed spontaneously.

BTW, the published test I saw showed liquid hide glue to have strength similar to HHG.

OK, I found the published results. The test was done by Fine Woodworking magazine, and here is a link to a PDF or their procedure and results.
http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

[Bernie Daniel]

I did see a published study recently... I'll see if I can find it.
The problem with glue studies in general is that they only test under near-ideal conditions of temperature and humidity and the test of the joint is to failure in tensile strength or sheer strength. The main differences in HHG and AR is in resistance to heat and resistance to creep, and though AR glue generally shows higher strength, it is more susceptible to dry heat and to plastic deformation (creep) under constant strain (like string tension). Both can be said to be "stronger than the wood itself!" in their proper temperature ranges.

Here's a little "experiment" I tried once.
I prepared two pairs of wood blocks for glue joints, put them in the freezer until they were cold, then "glued" them with tap water, clamped the joints and put them back in the freezer. The next day I took them out of the freezer, removed the clamps and "tested" one of the joints by clamping in a vise and whacking with a hammer. When the joint failed, it was the wood that failed, not the water/glue. My conclusion? Tap water is "stronger than the wood itself!", but only in it's proper temperature range. I left the other "glued" piece on the work bench, and in half a day or so the joint failed spontaneously.

BTW, the published test I saw showed liquid hide glue to have strength similar to HHG.


Thanks for the information. Obviously your last sentence begs the question -- so why go to all the extra work with HHG? I know this has been discussed more than once and most experienced luthiers come down hard on the side of HHG. But if they are of similar strength....?

I suppose one obvious reason to go with HHG is that you know you're working with fresh glue whereas with the liquid HG you could have a sample too old for maximum gluing strength.

[sunburst]

I suppose one obvious reason to go with HHG is that you know you're working with fresh glue whereas with the liquid HG you could have a sample too old for maximum gluing strength.

That's the biggest thing; control of our materials and knowing how fresh our glue is. Also, there is so much anecdotal evidence that liquid hide glue gives problems later on, that many are simply scared of it and it's track record. I've actually been meaning to get some OBG for certain things (paper labels, temporary things, some things around the shop that don't require great strength and a brown glue line doesn't matter), but I haven't gotten it yet so I don't have any first hand experience with it.

[otterly2k]

ROFLMAO re: the hair dryer conversation. My housemate has one that she uses-- but despite the fact that I'm a woman, I can't remember the last time I used a hair dryer for anything other than putting plastic on the windows in the wintertime.

As an aside, I also figure that if I get glue on the hair dryer, I've done something quite wrong. And if you get glue on someone else's hair dryer, I figure they have the right to complain!

[otterly2k]

Also, John, thanks for all the great info - I have the instrument hermetically sealed in its case to minimize other factors... will try to get to the repair in the next couple of weeks, but probably can't much before that. Life happens. But I appreciate the cautionary info... I hadn't thought of that.

[jackc]

Here's a link to Frank Ford's Frets.com info about hhg...

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/GlueTest/gluetest.html

If you look in his topic index there's more info about preparation and use. I agree with Dr. Hamlett. Splines and added structural parts won't make the joint stronger. Titebond and white glues creep with even a slight rise in temps. They'd probably be OK, but HHG is just better if correctly used.

[mirwa]

Here's a link to Frank Ford's Frets.com info about hhg...

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/GlueTest/gluetest.html

If you look in his topic index there's more info about preparation and use. I agree with Dr. Hamlett. Splines and added structural parts won't make the joint stronger. Titebond and white glues creep with even a slight rise in temps. They'd probably be OK, but HHG is just better if correctly used.

I would disagree

Firstly, the test he Carries out applies a twisting load on the glued joint, not a stress load as would be in the case of a repaired headstock

Every manufacturer of typical scarfed joints uses some form of an aliphatic glue - not hide glue, the reason for this is hide glue is very brittle, add some alcohol and it fractures very easily. Out of the approx 10 million plus head joints created with versions of titebonds etc, how many have actually failed in use without an external impact

As far as a neck joint is not actually stronger with fitted splines, then I'm sorry this demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge about strengths and weakness of scarfed joints.

Hide glue is fine to use, but saying that titebond is an inferior product is just wrong

[sunburst]

Hide glue is fine to use, but saying that titebond is an inferior product is just wrong

I didn't say that, but since you put it that way I will. HHG is a superior glue for this repair over Titebond. (Both are acceptable, though.)
In most cases, manufacturers use AR glue for convenience in the manufacturing process and because it works, not because they have studied the situation and determined it to be better than HHG.

[mirwa]

I didn't say that, but since you put it that way I will. HHG is a superior glue for this repair over Titebond. (Both are acceptable, though.)
In most cases, manufacturers use AR glue for convenience in the manufacturing process and because it works, not because they have studied the situation and determined it to be better than HHG.

Interesting that you interpreted my response as referenced to you.

It was referenced to the author I quoted, and his link.

The next section of my response relates to yourself......

Everyone has an opinion, and everyone has a right to an opinion, you believe hide glue is better for the repair, congratulations. I believe aliphatic is better, doesnt mean you need to jump at me.

It is also interesting that you know Ar is used for convenience by manufacturers not because of strength analysis, I would not be so presumptious to assume

[HoGo]

Trust John, he talks experience.
BTW, he'd worked for large manufacturer for some time so I guess he really KNOWS what he is talking about.

[mirwa]

Thanks adrian, however we all have different views.

Experience... Mmmm, let me start by saying Im nobody important, but I do run a business that is dedicated to repairing broken instruments, theres four of us in my workshop that do this day in day out, for manufacturers like Gibson/Fender/Martin/Taylor/Yamaha/MusicMan etc etc, repairing a broken instrument is way harder than building one, and yes we do build them as well.

There is no "facts" in the industry just views and opinions.

[Jim Baker]

Titebond would be my first choice. I have not had a bad joint using it and I am impressed with it's strength and versatility. Hide glue is great but I would worry that I couldn't work it into the joint before it jells.

[Pete Jenner]

I use fish glue. :whistling:

[sunburst]

I use fish glue.

A good choice, but not too easily found.

[Pete Jenner]

Australian luthier supplies have it.
http://luthierssupplies.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=96_55&products_id=884

[Clicker]

Here's US source of fish glue:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=20019&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1

I used thick CA gel in the past. (When I was building scale model planes.) It might be a good choice with your issue as well.

[Pete Jenner]

Here's US source of fish glue:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=20019&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1


Everything is so much cheaper in the US. Most of the time it's cheaper for me to buy parts and tools from the US than here even after factoring in postage.

[FL Dawg]

Yeah, I really was inclined not to use Gorilla glue or epoxy, but wondered whether she knew something I didn't.

Epoxy? Run away! That's for fixing boats :) Don't even say the E word if you're talking about joining wood.

Maybe some heat to the area can help you flow the hide glue into break.

[mirwa]

Mmm, a day of broken headstock repairs

3 sets of splines to fit

[Bernie Daniel]

I did see a published study recently... I'll see if I can find it.
The problem with glue studies in general is that they only test under near-ideal conditions of temperature and humidity and the test of the joint is to failure in tensile strength or sheer strength. The main differences in HHG and AR is in resistance to heat and resistance to creep, and though AR glue generally shows higher strength, it is more susceptible to dry heat and to plastic deformation (creep) under constant strain (like string tension). Both can be said to be "stronger than the wood itself!" in their proper temperature ranges.

Here's a little "experiment" I tried once.
I prepared two pairs of wood blocks for glue joints, put them in the freezer until they were cold, then "glued" them with tap water, clamped the joints and put them back in the freezer. The next day I took them out of the freezer, removed the clamps and "tested" one of the joints by clamping in a vise and whacking with a hammer. When the joint failed, it was the wood that failed, not the water/glue. My conclusion? Tap water is "stronger than the wood itself!", but only in it's proper temperature range. I left the other "glued" piece on the work bench, and in half a day or so the joint failed spontaneously.

BTW, the published test I saw showed liquid hide glue to have strength similar to HHG.

OK, I found the published results. The test was done by Fine Woodworking magazine, and here is a link to a PDF or their procedure and results.
http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

Thanks John that was great article! Much appreciated and it sure is interesting to see how poor polyurethane glues are!
I wonder what the "shelf-life" of how long liquid hide glue is?

[mirwa]

Hi all-
I have an OM here with a classic headstock break.

I have read many glue debates here...

If your interested, you can visit the cracked headstock section of my website, it actually shows a typical repair process

http://www.ultrainspections.com/Cracked_Headstocks.html

Steve

[slausonm]

If your interested, you can visit the cracked headstock section of my website, it actually shows a typical repair process

http://www.ultrainspections.com/Cracked_Headstocks.html

Steve

Hi Steve,
You have too many interests :) I have an unusual bassoon tenon repair to do, so when I saw this thread on mandolincafe I decided to investigate the opinions on glue since it is a maple instrument. I am re-repairing an instrument that had a poorly repaired tenon that failed. Counter bored too large a diameter and tenon replacement too short. High stress area much like a guitar/mandolin neck. Thanks for the gluing info.
Matt

[mirwa]

Hey matt, yes way too many interests.;)

I learnt the hard way with replacing tenons on bassoons, the first one I did , was the same way as on a clarinet, I bored the body for a replacement socket and then glued it up. - Really no good, it just wasnt right IMO.

Now I do my bassoon tenons a different way, I machine the body original tenon back to a stable surface with a 2.5 degree taper cut, then I match up a new piece of stock maple with the same reverse cut and glue them up with titebond, the taper join is perfect. I then profile turn the tenon and recork. Impossible to find the repair after its done and structurally as good as the original maple tenon before it was broken.

Steve

[Fretbear]

I was surprised that the hot hide glue did not do better in that Fine Woodworking article, considering how many repairmen swear by it. This brown GF PVA glue from Lee Valley is also an excellent performer, allowing any squeeze-out to be cleaned up as directed before it is fully cured, preventing any problems with stains and finishes later on.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=45104&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1

[Jim Baker]

I used the 2002 GF glue from Lee Valley on my first kit and it worked wonderfully.

[otterly2k]

It took me a while to get to it - but I DID end up using HHG. Here's the repair being glued up. Taken after I'd cleaned up squeeze-out. Just restrung the OM and all is well!

HHG was not hard to use, although I mixed up way too much.
I used a mini crock pot with water in it, and had the glue in a small glass jar set into the water. I used a syringe for getting the glue in the crack, but the first needle I had on there was too thin for the viscosity of the glue, and had to swap out the needle, which was messy. Cleaned up easily tho, as you guys already know.

And I didn't end up using a hair dryer... just a lamp close to the headstock for a good while before gluing.

Thanks, all, as always for your guidance and support.

[sunburst]

I kept looking for the little "thumbs up" image to post, but I guess there isn't one... so imagine a little "thumbs up" icon here.

[John Arnold]

There is no "facts" in the industry just views and opinions.
Here are one fact....I have used Titebond, HHG, and epoxy, and had good success with all of them.
For those 'problem' headstock breaks that have been repaired multiple times, I prefer the backstrap repair.
It are one thing that I have learnt.

[mirwa]

Interesting choice of repair.

[John Arnold]

I have used splines, but they share a problem with dowels, in that a tight fit means that sliding the plug in place can wipe the glue from the joint, starving it. Of course, there are ways to deal with this issue.
The reason I like the backstrap is that the wood is bent, which is inherently stronger because it minimizes grain runout. In addition, it provides maximum strength where it is most needed....at the back surface of the peghead.

[Fretbear]

OK, I would never use epoxy to repair a headstock break, but what about when someone else already has in the past? I know that Frank Ford uses it on at least one repair on frets.com. I am working on on old Ovation guitar right now with several other issues, and the broken peghead has been re-attached with four short screws, two from the front, two from the back, and alot of epoxy, and it all seems to be holding together, and when I flex it, it seems to be solid. Is there any reason to believe it will fail? Is it possible to get old epoxy out of a joint anyways?

[sunburst]

Is there any reason to believe it will fail? Is it possible to get old epoxy out of a joint anyways?

Yes, it will fail... if something hits it hard enough. It failed before, it can fail again. Will it spontaneously fail? Probably not. Will it fail if it is overheated? Could be.
Even the most expertly repaired things will break again if something hits them hard enough. Obviously, hitting things hard enough breaks them even if they haven't been repaired, so why would we expect more of them after a repair?
(I'm not so much stating the obvious in response to your question as simply pointing out this fact to those reading this. I think remembering that instruments break when accidents happen gives us a better perspective when it comes to expectations for repairs.)

As for removing cured epoxy from wood, physical removal is about the only way, and getting it all out of there would require removing some wood too.

Things that have been "repaired" by well meaning but uninformed people, misplaced epoxy, hardware, dowels, splines and so forth, are the worst things that come in to repair shops. The neck in question can be salvaged one way or another and can look OK and function well again, but the cost of undoing the "amateur repair" and performing a "proper repair" would most likely be out of line with the value of the instrument. If it's solid and working and the instrument is playable, probably best to leave it.

[Fretbear]

Thanks John, good points. In this case the removal of all that which has already been done would be so drastic as to be counter-productive. The front area around the truss-rod cavity and up to the lowest two tuners looks so terrible from the previous ham-handed repair that I had always planned to fashion a large oversize coverplate/trussrod cover in a flat piece of walnut to cover it all up, but was not considering that as structural. Today I got the idea that I will still do that, but make it thicker and glue it down into place as a kind of "front strap" as opposed to a "back-strap", with one edge butted against the fretboard and the other fastened to the peghead by the lower threaded tuner bushings. It will look good and add strength to the joint. The trussrod access will be cut through it with a small TR cover made for it out of the same wood.

[sunburst]

Adding the cover piece to the front of the peghead can only be considered cosmetic, no particular strength will be added. The reason back straps contribute to strength is that they are in tension when the instruments is strung up, and because of that they relieve some of the stress on the neck itself. Added wood at the front of the peghead doesn't do that.

[Fretbear]

Thanks again John, I was wondering about that, especially as the web info on that technique often emphasizes the importance of putting a bend into the back strap as it meets the neck to help preload the peghead against the string tension.
That will save me alot of wasted time and effort. I strung it up to test it and the peghead repair seems to be holding nicely as it is.

[Bernie Daniel]

Just a comment. A fellow I have worked with here in southern Ohio has a reputation of being one of the better instrument repair guys around here. Certainly in my opinion he is.

His approach to a headstock break is to 1) first glue it with HHG and then 2) mill 1/8" off the top of the break and also off the bottom (at least several inches in each direction -- don't know how he decides what is needed), 3) then he fills it in with fresh wood (maple or mahogany on back -- ebony or rosewood or whatever on top) then finally 4) he re-carves or re-works it back to shape as required.

He mentions whenever he sees a guitar that he has fixed come back in for another break it is always somewhere else on the neck so I guess his repair is strong!

Since this one is already glued you could still add the extra wood? This would be more substantial then the cosmetic cover plate that you and John were discussing? But its also a lot more work I suppose and probably more then would be prudent on some instruments from cost perspective?

[Fretbear]

His approach to a headstock break is to 1) first glue it with HHG and then 2) mill 1/8" off the top of the break and also off the bottom (at least several inches in each direction -- don't know how he decides what is needed), 3) then he fills it in with fresh wood (maple or mahogany on back -- ebony or rosewood or whatever on top) then finally 4) he re-carves or re-works it back to shape as required.

He mentions whenever he sees a guitar that he has fixed come back in for another break it is always somewhere else on the neck so I guess his repair is strong!

Since this one is already glued you could still add the extra wood? This would be more substantial then the cosmetic cover plate that you and John were discussing? But its also a lot more work I suppose and probably more then would be prudent on some instruments from cost perspective?

Bernie I've understood they generally do the top part just so it looks better and to conceal the top damage; like John said, the back strap is doing the heavy lifting. Frank Ford will often replace the entire headstock overlay including replacing the CF Martin water-slide decal (and those things are not cheap) In the case of this beat old Ovation, it is not worth all the trouble of the backstrap, especially since it seems to be holding, I strung it up and it is staying stable (so far)

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie I've understood they generally do the top part just so it looks better and to conceal the top damage; like John said, the back strap is doing the heavy lifting. Frank Ford will often replace the entire headstock overlay including replacing the CF Martin water-slide decal (and those things are not cheap) In the case of this beat old Ovation, it is not worth all the trouble of the backstrap, especially since it seems to be holding, I strung it up and it is staying stable (so far)

It just dawned on me that "back strap" is exactly the same thing that I was talking about i.e., a piece of new wood over the back side of the break. In this situation I was talking about the luthier is essentially make a back strap and a top strap I guess -- i.e., using 1/8" stock instead of the thin headstock cover plate. But as you say that gets to be expensive and would not always be appropriate.