Advice on F4, F5

[Jim Imhoff]

I am looking at some online deals that LOOK real good, but nervous about spending 2 - 4K on a picture; first question: how big a difference between the F4 and F5; I believe the F5 was into the Loar period, but I also read about the older instruments being better just because of vintage. I have a 1914 (or so) A that is good but want to move up in tone and looks. I am frustrated looking for big stocked stores in Portland OR area--a nice place closed lat year. Obviously, holding and playing is the ultimate test, but difficult when the instrument is in other states. Any tips? Are there any "sure-thing" models or vintages to consider?
Thank you, expert opinion-holders.

[Chip Booth]

Welcome to the Cafe!

When it comes to teens or 20s Gibson oval holes some are great and some are just ok. I haven't found any era to be an absolute sure thing. People generally point to the Loar era F4 as a highlight though ('22-'24). Still, there is no reason to automatically assume you will get a better sound than your current A.

As for an F5, the Loar era F5 is considered the cream of the crop for that kind of instrument, but of course the price tag is more like 200K. Even the Gibson F5 models into the 30s are extremely expensive. After that things get hit and miss again in my opinion, and I wouldn't buy a vintage Gibson without playing it first. In your budget you will want to look at newer builders for an F5.

I'll give you the time honored advice that in that budget range you will get a lot more mandolin tone for your money with an A style instrument because the aesthetics of the F style cost a lot of money while contributing little or not at all to the tone.

Whether you want the oval hole or F hole sound of course is an entirely different matter. Most people will point to what style of music you play, and that is a serious consideration. For myself I love the F hole sound, and I think it works in just about any style of music. Even though I have a nice vintage oval it doesn't see much use.

[fatt-dad]

consider a Collings. I'd opt for an a-model with f-holes, 'cause you already have the Gibson oval hole.

f-d

[Jim Garber]

Wide advice on this thread so far. I assume you are not that satisfied with your 1914 Gibson? As far as tone, you may also consider having it checked out with a decent luthier who can maybe suggest some changes that might help. Sometimes even changing string brands helps.

BTW is Artichoke Music (http://artichokemusic.org) still in business? I have never dealt with them but from their site, it looks like a decent place.

There is a relatively big difference between and oval hole and an f-hole instrument 0-- more so than an A vs. F shaped one. If you are willing to pay 2-4 K and want an F5 style, you might look at Northfield. They seem to be getting some excellent reviews in that price range.

If you want to stay with vintage Gibsons, I would check out those made around 1921-22. Most of those I have played have had wonderful tone and yet are not quite Loar era (no truss rods) so the price stays lower. Of course, unless you find a real bargain, you are still talking about A models here, tho you might be able to score an F2 for under $4K.

[Jim Imhoff]

All this is very helpful; I am worried about being seduced by the flash and glitz of a great-looking F style with all the pearl and gold, but maybe not as good a sound. I am considering a couple of F-styles in the 3 - 4K range, one is a F-12 that some on-line critics have dissed; on the other hand, I have seen this model/vintage listed at much higher prices. And it is a BEAUTY to look at. Also a 1920's F4, a bit more $ but also quite good-looking and (maybe?) a better quality instrument than the flashy F12?
I did have some work and set-up done on my 1914 A, was told by several knowledgable people that it was "pretty good," but not "great," and that here were a lot of that vintage/model made, so I probably paid too much ($1400). It was head and shoulders over a factory (Korean?) new Washburn. It has a nice bright ring with open chords, but gets a bit dead and buzzy with notes and chords up 5 or 6 frets, esp. in bass.
Yes, Artichoke is going strong, but more of a "center"--school, open sessions, etc., so inventory is not as massive. It was another fine store that closed last year, Pioneer music.
Trying to restrain myself,
Jim

[Jim Garber]

The ultimate classic F5, the signed Lloyd Loars have gold but not a lot of pearl. If nothing else they are understated in design.

If you can get a nice 20s F4 for under $4k, that is a good deal, I believe. There are a few in the classifieds but only one that is close to that price (http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/60403).

[allenhopkins]

The only suggestion I would make, is play as many mandolins as you can get your hands on. Don't think "Gibson only," don't think "vintage only," don't worry about F's vs. A's, oval-hole vs. f-hole. Find the one you like the best. You're talking about spending a good deal, so be prepared to perhaps put a few miles on, going to where there may be a larger selection. Or peruse the on-line inventories of the major dealers, see if something appeals, call 'em and get the best impression you can long-distance.

There are a gazillion opinions out in Mandolin Land, but the only one that counts is yours, 'cause you're putting up the buxx and you're the one that'll live with the choice.

[Jim Garber]

Wisely stated, Allen.

[Jim Imhoff]

Good advice of course; I am surprised and disappointed to find very little inventory here in Portland, or even the greater Northwest. (I might look into Vancouver BC--going up there soon) The interesting ones I have seen are all over the country--Kansas, Florida, even Europe (where's that?). I thought my A was a lifetime investment, but as I learn to play more and more, I find little things that I did not notice when I first tried it. Still a good little instrument, though, and if the pretty shiny ones don't come through I am happy to keep playing it, or to be patient and save up for a future find.
Tried a Breedlove (made here in Oregon)--interesting, wider rounded neck comfy for guitar players, and a new Weber; both pretty good, not sure they are better than my A.
Some of you seem to have a preference for oval vs f-hole, but not clear which: I am doing bluegrass, and some say the style of music makes a difference. I have to admit I am a music scholar (I really am a doc--DMA UofO--Go Ducks!) so the "vintage thing" has a historical appeal. I also have a collection of 100+ year-old hand planes, some of them I use, some just sit there looking cool. Hey--they're a hundred years old!! Hope my grandchildren don't throw it all out when I'm gone!
Lesson next week with a local mando-star; maybe I will get some advice there. The search continues...

[chasray]

Take your time. Enjoy the journey. You'll learn what YOU like.

Have your local mando-star play your mandolin back at you. It'll sound different simply because you'll be in front of it, not holding it. That's something else to consider.

[trevor]

There's some great advice above. My advice as a first step would be to decide whether you want the oval or f hole sound. Its easy to outline the differences in words but the only way to really decide is to try as many as you can. Ideally find somewhere that has the same model, oval and f hole.

Then perhaps decide if you want a scroll or not. If you can come to a decision whether you want A4, A5, F4 or F5 then from there on if you have a price range in mind the search becomes much easier, though there is still plenty of choice.

[Jim Nollman]

Good advice of course; I am surprised and disappointed to find very little inventory here in Portland, or even the greater Northwest.

I agree, retail music stores are not so mandolin-centric in the Pacific NW as in other parts of the country. But you can certainly find Collings, Breedlove, Kentuckys and Gibson at the usual places. And be aware that our area is a hub for small shop mandolins. LeStock, Mowry, Smart, Austin, are just a few of the many quality luthiers within a day's drive of you. They are all on the Internet.

Or wait til February, and attend Seattle's Wintergrass, where you'll be able to play and hear mandolins to your heart's content.

[almeriastrings]

I also read about the older instruments being better just because of vintage.

Not necessarily at all. Today, there are some amazing instruments being built. Just take a browse of the builder's index on here.... vintage instruments can be superb; they can also be very average or even poor, and can also require a lot of work (neck sets, re-frets, for example). There is no 'absolute' rule on this that says just because an instrument is old it is automatically better than a recent example.The only "sure thing" (as fas as that goes) is to avoid the notoriously bad periods in a manufacturer's history, in other words, for Gibson, the mid-60's through 1970's period (certainly in terms of F5's). You are obviously not going to get a 'real' vintage Gibson F5, especially Loar period, for $4K or anything remotely like it. You could probably find a good original case for one on that budget, though...

Also, are you buying to collect, as an investment, or mainly to play? Or all three?

An F4 sounds very, very different from an F5. You really need to hear some. The F4 (or that design) will be somewhat closer to the "warm, round, resonant" tone you are used to with your current instrument. Not identical, but closer. An F5-style is a different beast entirely. Only way to find out is to play with some. Preferences vary... much depends on the style you play as to what will work for you. If you pick hardcore bluegrass, then an F-5 or A-5 style instrument is going to be your target zone... if folk, traditional, jazz, classical, or celtic, then you have a lot more options.

[Barry Canada]

I have a Collings Mt2v and a teens Gibson A2. The Gibson is too tubby sounding to me. I was wondering if there were suggestions out there for an oval with a sound somewhere between these 2 instruments. I want this to use for more of a jazz and classical sound along with chord melody. I am open to around 3000 dollars!

[Chip Booth]

I have a Collings Mt2v and a teens Gibson A2. The Gibson is too tubby sounding to me. I was wondering if there were suggestions out there for an oval with a sound somewhere between these 2 instruments. I want this to use for more of a jazz and classical sound along with chord melody. I am open to around 3000 dollars!

Take a look at almost any modern factory produced oval hole mandolin. They are almost always a hybrid design with a raised fingerboard, forward shifted neck, and typically X bracing as opposed to a single transverse brace like your A2. I know that Collings makes one and Weber makes one (the "old wood" vintage model). Bill Bussman's Old Wave mandolins are often mentioned here as being a good choice for a modern oval from a small builder. Lots of independent builders make hybrid model ovals as well as recreations of the early Gibsons.

[Jim Imhoff]

I got it; I am not in the price range for a genuine Loar. And I don't need a case, thanks.
But my problem is I do not have the opportunity to play a dozen different models, not here in Portland, and if I spend the money to travel to all the stores in the midwest and east that have a big selection, I will have enough left to buy back the Korean factory Washburn I started with. I am looking at some F2's that I could handle, but without direct trial I am looking for some general advice and guidance, not a definitive answer. I do have a "collector" streak, and would prefer a vintage for aesthetic reasons (like my 100+ year old hand tools, only some of which I use). I will be playing traditional bluegrass; my 1914 A has plenty of bark and bright high notes, but as i move up the neck for chop chords it gets rather dead. Sounds like you are recommending the F5; I have seen a few of those posted online, and I will take a more careful look--that is the kind of specific tip I was looking for, so thanks. My teacher, Brian Oberlin, said he would do some scouting while on tour.
I guess I will be patient until either travel is adoption, or an unmistakable deal appears. When this is all resolved, I will let the thread-joiners know. Thanks again.

[Law Student]

Am I reading the thread correctly, that most feel that an F4 mandolin is not suited to bluegrass, regarding the chops, percussion, and tone?

[Jack Roberts]

Many years ago bluegrass was played on F4s as well as F5s, but with the Folk Revival of the 60s the genre became more fixed and Bill Monroe's F5 became the standard. You can chop with an F4, but you won't get that authentic Monroe sound out if it.

You can play any genre on an F5, including classical music (for which Lloyd Loar designed it), but it is unconventional to play Bluegrass on an oval holed instrument. So if you don't mind being unconventional and you like the sound of oval holes, you can chose the F4 or
A ovals. If you really want the bluegrass sound, it will be hard to get it without an F5 or newer A5 instrument.

[allenhopkins]

Am I reading the thread correctly, that most feel that an F4 mandolin is not suited to bluegrass, regarding the chops, percussion, and tone?

Oval-hole mandolins as a general rule have a less percussive and "cutting" sound than f-hole mandolins, and since a large part of the mandolin's role in bluegrass is playing percussive "chop" chords, f-hole instruments are generally preferred. And, as Jack R points out, there's a desire to emulate bluegrass role-model mandolinists, so the fact that Bill Monroe played an F-5 has had a profound effect on others' choices.

Jimmy Martin owned an F-4 that he had this band's mandolin players use (not exclusively), so one of the major bluegrass figures preferred the sound of at least one F-4. When I first saw Joe Val with the Charles River Valley Boys in the 1960's, he was playing an F-2; at the same time, Everett Lilly of the Lilly Brothers & Don Stover was playing an F-4. Red Rector did a lot of wonderful bluegrass on an A-4 oval-hole. So oval-hole instruments are not unknown in bluegrass, but the "standard" bluegrass sound, is that of an f-hole instrument like the F-5.

[almeriastrings]

Red's sound was totally different than other people's. Certainly very different from Monroe. Had the pleasure of hearing him quite a few times, when he was with Bill Clifton. He was a fine player, really outstanding. His tone, though, was veering more "old-time" than "dry, woody, chop" stuff... not talking about the notes he played (because he could play any notes he wanted to) but his tone. You can hear that really well on the album he cut with Norman Blake.

There is a good little bio and discography of Red online:

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~john.baldry/mando/rector.html

A great, great player, and a thoroughly nice guy. A sad loss to the mandolin world.

[mrmando]

That F12 might be just the ticket for bluegrass. Some nice ones out there.

[Capt. E]

An F4 is perfectly fine for Bluegrass, though may not have the "tone" you want. If you are already playing with a vintage Gibson A, then you will probably be very pleased with one. Ray Valla is holding an F4 on the cover of his Mel Bay "Bluegrass Mandolin" book.

There are quite a few modern choices as well and if your budget goes up to $3500 or so, you have quite a few to choose from. Personally, I like the Weber products over Collings, but that's just me. What I really want is an Ellis. You can get one of his A5's for mid 5K.

[red7flag]

I am a true lover of the traditional F4, not the hybrid mentioned by Alan above. I am very fortunate to be having Gail Hester make me a replica of a 20's F4. I am very excited and can't wait to receive it. A short neck F4 has a different feel and tone than an F5. It tends to sing and as Alan says is less percussive. So the F4, while less ideal for bluegrass, where standing out from the cacophony of the bluegrass band is critical, the F4 really shines in duets and Celtic music where the role is more blending and augmenting. Both the F4 and F5s are wonderful instruments, just have a different feel. I keep having to restrain myself from trying to hurry Gail. Just like fine wine, it will be ready on its own time.

[Glassweb]

Just let Gail do her thing... which she does superbly. Great things come to those who wait...

[Jim Imhoff]

Just to jump in again (I started this thread) I am reading all of you carefully and appreciate the advice. My two problems are I probably cannot afford the ideal instrument on my current budget (or ever), so I will have to decide and compromise; but the real problem is access to a wide range of instruments--just not available to try here in P-town. I will probably make a trip to Seattle to check out those places, but it's clear that the best deals will have to wait for my summer cross-country trip. I might get some hands-on help from my teacher after his tour. Again, thanks all of you for the ideas and advice.
Meanwhile, I am having a pretty good time with my 1914 Gibson A.