Monroe's Mando

[futrconslr]

I am a little confused over the fight for the Mando. I understand that a foundation "bought" the instrument from James but could not come up with the money. I also was told they were giving a couple of extensions to pay for it. If they cant afford it what are they fighting over? If James wins who is he going to sell it to?

[grandmainger]

There's a link right from the cafe home page today:
Article from www.nashvillecitypaper.com (http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section_id=10&screen=news&news_id=38321)
I think the answer to your question is on there... I've not read the whole lot though !

[futrconslr]

I read that and posted that link to the email list yesterday after seeing it in the City Paper. It really doesnt answer anything its just a report.

[evanreilly]

The short story:
The Bill Monroe Foundation made a bid to buy the mandolin from James Monroe to make it a central item in their restoration of the old Monroe homeplace/Museum.
Dr. Campbell Mercer, of the Foundation, raised about 10% of the needed funds ($1,250,000.00 I beleive was the amount James agreed to sell the mandolin for, If my memory is correct) and paid James that percentage as a deposit/downpayment.
The Foundation was not able to make the next payment due.
James says their claim is void; the Foundation claims that his acceptance of the deposit binds him to the agreement.
Enter the sharks. Now in court. Stay tuned... the show starts Monday...

[earthsave]

That's my take... James owns it... the foundation bid on it, $1.25M, and could not come up with the balance in the agreed upon timeframe.

My interpretation would mean that the deal could be voided if they continued to miss their payment schedule. Which has been well over a year now.

[luckylarue]

I heard that another investment group offered more $$, so James wanted out of the original deal. This is what one of the caretaker's at the Monroe Homestead told me in Sept. That's a lot of cabbage either way.

[f5loar]

If you put up a down payment sometimes called security deposit on a home you want to buy and during the time frame usually 30 to 90 days can't come up with the balance as you didn't qualify for the balance of the loan then by contract you loose your deposit and the right to buy at that time. I'd hate to be on the jury on this one but if I was I know for sure I would insist I pick the mandolin before I pass judgement.

[futrconslr]

F5loar-----Thats GREAT! Actually, I was going to go over the the courthouse monday and see it I could catch a glimpse of it myself. I figured it would be the only way I would get to see it outside of a case somewhere. I know one of the attys involved, maybe I could get him to let me pick it during a recess! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[futrconslr]

[QUOTE]the Foundation claims that his acceptance of the deposit binds him to the agreement.

I hope that is not all the Foundation is basing there case on. If the contract is void as to a time period for execution of the agreement, the court will usually read into it a "reasonable" amount of time. Considering it has been what at least 5 years since the deal was made I would say they are in trouble.

What I dont understand is that some guy was on the email list saying that "alot of people would lose their money" I would think that the court would make James return any downpayment made....especially if the contract is silent as to what happens to any downpayment money in the event of default. I just hope to God it doesnt go overseas.

[futrconslr]

I just thought, we have 5719 members.....if everyone kicks in 218.00, we could buy it from james for 1.2 and them pass it around week to week!

[Dfyngravity]

Thats fantastic....count me in http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif haha

[AlanN]

I can see the trial now...

Defense calls to the stand one James Monroe

"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and no part of nuthin'?"

Defense calls to the stand exhibit A - July 9 Loar mandolin...

"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?"

...I do...

"So, 73997, tell me - Who smashed you to bits in 1985?"

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Tom C]

Basically if you get a mortgage on a house and you stop paying it, they take the house. They do not give back to you what you already paid. The money already given, 100K+, does not seem like a down payment but a payment like the mando is on a layaway and the group buying it stopped making payments.

[futrconslr]

A mortgage is different. The written contract governs the deal. Usually there is a clause in the mortage agreement that allows this to happen. If a contract is silent as to a term, the court can read into it what it wants to. James could get to keep the money but in this case I doubt it. What I would LOVE to see is a copy of the Sale Agreement between James and The foundation. Then we could figure real quick who was trying to screw who.

[Flowerpot]

"I just thought, we have 5719 members.....if everyone kicks in 218.00, we could buy it from james for 1.2 and them pass it around week to week!"

Hey, I'd pay $218 to be able to that mando for a week... but with 5719 members, somebody's going to be waiting for 110 years for their turn!

[Tom C]

Older ones first. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[evanreilly]

Wait a minute!!! What is this mandolin numbered 73997http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
That isn't the real Monroe mandolin!!!
Will the real Number 73987 step forward...
The court calls on Charlie Derrington to confirm identity of the real Monroe mandolin...
etc...
A lot of attention will be focussed on the 'contract' between James and the BMF. Lawyers love that stuff, and that will be the crucial factor in the resolution of ownership and claims upon the mandolin.

[good_ol_al_61]

There are many takes on this argument, but here is what I have heard from the BMF and others closely tied with the Rosine project who shall remain nameless.

The BMF made the down payment. Then 9/11 happened. Several major contributors backed out and left mercer hanging. He did manage to come up with a second payment to extend the agreement. But Mercer should have been able to put it on display at that time, charge admission to see it in order to pay the balance.

But back at the ranch, another investment group (one that has no interest in Bluegrass or respect for the music) steps in with the cash.

That is when the plug tried to be pulled by James. So the rift began. Mercer was not able to get a revenue stream going because of not having the Loar to display and no other contributors have come forward.

So at this point, Mercer is fighting to keep the Loar on the principle of keeping it in the Bluegrass arena. The investment group is simply offering to buy for resale as in artwork. James wants the cash and is not interested in displaying it for all of us to enjoy.

But I have not spoken to the investment group, this is my opinion based on conversations with other insiders.

I really don't think Mercer will win on the legal side. Could the Judge rule on emotion? Maybe it will be judged by a lady who loves Bluegrass. I could only hope so.

[futrconslr]

I wonder why Gibby hasnt ponied up the money to buy it.???

[kudzugypsy]

although i have never met the guy (and really have no judgement), i dont think i have ever heard ONE SINGLE #positive word spoken about james monroe. the fact he could care less about the mandolin and wants the money is just another drop in the bucket. he would probably blow it all at the racetrack before you could finish rawhide. i dont want to start a james bashing thread, but it is just pathetic that the most important instrument in american music will be treated this way. i think it IS quite ironic that even from the grave, ol Bill is causing a stir!!

at least someone stepped foreward to put Maybelle Carters L5 in the CMM.

as far as the fund raising. i dont see why the foundation cant get some big time corporate involvement. why not get gibson to donate 5% of every mando sale to the foundation? where is ricky skaggs, grisman and marty stewart, etc when it really counts??? as for that matter, they havent bothered to come here to the cafe to set up any kind of fund raising??? they need to hire an aggressive ad agency and get on the ball.
james seem to be the thorn saying they cant use Monroes name on any fundraising....that is crazy. that is the whole purpose of raising the funds!!!!

[mando bandage]

. I just hope to God it doesnt go overseas.



Unless it goes to..........Scotland??


R

[Scott Tichenor]

. I just hope to God it doesnt go overseas.



Unless it goes to..........Scotland??
I heard somewhere it had been purchased an unnamed Japanese investor. I know this was true, because I read it on the internet... somewhere.

[ronlane3]

Just my take: The Foundation put of the deposit and tried to get the rest. They couldn't get enough loan financing and tried to sell "shares" but that didn't work either. If they haven't made anymore payments, I'm pretty sure that they won't, so it would make sense that it is James' again to do with what he wants.

Oh as for Lawyers, hey the Foundation gave James $100K to pay his fees for a while. hehehe

[Scott Tichenor]

If you're up at this time of night here's some breaking news that just hit the search engines about five minutes ago. Lawsuit over the mandolin settled. But....

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/pop....andolin (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/pop/apmusic_story.asp?category=1403&slug=Monroe's%20Mandolin)

[J. Mark Lane]

although i have never met the guy (and really have no judgement), i dont think i have ever heard ONE SINGLE #positive word spoken about james monroe. the fact he could care less about the mandolin and wants the money is just another drop in the bucket. he would probably blow it all at the racetrack before you could finish rawhide. i dont want to start a james bashing thread, but it is just pathetic that the most important instrument in american music will be treated this way. i think it IS quite ironic that even from the grave, ol Bill is causing a stir!!

at least someone stepped foreward to put Maybelle Carters L5 in the CMM.

as far as the fund raising. i dont see why the foundation cant get some big time corporate involvement. why not get gibson to donate 5% of every mando sale to the foundation? where is ricky skaggs, grisman and marty stewart, etc when it really counts??? as for that matter, they havent bothered to come here to the cafe to set up any kind of fund raising??? they need to hire an aggressive ad agency and get on the ball.
james seem to be the thorn saying they cant use Monroes name on any fundraising....that is crazy. that is the whole purpose of raising the funds!!!!
You know, if you haven't met the man, and all you have is a bunch of hearsay, maybe you ought to leave it to others to say what kind of man he is. You don't wear his shoes. And your "racetrack" comment is really...offensive.

Bill Monroe left the mandolin to his son. Surely, Bill knew what kind of man his son is. And I suspect he loved his son, as most parents do. And his son owns the mandolin. And he can do anything he wants with it. And if I were in his shoes, I assure you I would get every penny I could for it. Does that make me a bad person? (Don't answer that.) It's just a freakin' mandolin, fercryinoutloud. And a pretty beat up one, at that.

And as for your theory that some "corporate" entity (oh, you mean those evil corporations that maximize their assets?) should step up and give the Foundation money, perhaps before you comment too much on that you ought to read the history of this Foundation.

Frankly, I think the injustice here is the one perpetrated on James. These guys signed a contract to buy the mandolin for stupid price, and then couldn't come up with the money. And instead of being stand-up about it and letting the whole thing go because they couldn't live up to their end of the bargain, they want to tie him up in litigation forever. That's not the way people do business in the world I move in.

OK, rant off. Nothing personal. I've just heard this so many times it is starting to get to me.

Mark

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

OK, another read of this gives a good clue. Monroe's lawyer stating "this is the best settlement for both parties". My bet: mandolin will be up for sale soon.

[jasona]

WEll put Mark.

Scott, um, thanks I guess? After all of this time I'd at least like to know what the resolution is... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kudzugypsy]

quote from original article:

......Meanwhile, James Monroe has filed another suit against Mercer’s foundation to bar it from using Bill Monroe’s name to raise money. That suit is pending in federal court.

its gonna be pretty hard to raise money if they cant use Monroes name. seems like a smart move by james to make sure the money doesnt get raised, thus voiding the deal. obviously, i'm not a lawyer, and contracts are quite complex.
what puzzles me is that 1 million dollars doesnt seem that steep a figure to raise over a 5 year period. even in my "small" size town, when the arts council needed to raise 1/2 of a $3 million dollar project to buy land and build a new arts center, they did it, mainly on relatively small donations.

as to mark lanes reply to my post, sorry if you found it blunt and offensive, but i still stick to it 100% (even the racetrack comment...james loves the horses!). i'm not attempting to pass judgement on james, i like and have no problem with people like this (i have some in my own family) I dont "know" 99.99% of the people on the cafe, but i have established opinions (good, lame, indifferent) on some based upon spending time reading their posts. somepeople value things like this (the most important instrument in american music) and some like yourself could care less. the way i look at it is years down the road, there will be a time (maybe a hundred years from now) when we will realize how very important the last true folk tradition icon was, and his mandolin (and recordings) will be all that is left. when things like this are gone, they are gone. i just hate to see the immediate gratification of cash outweigh the long term benefits of building a museum and having the spirit live on. your right though, it is james' mandolin and he can do with it as he chooses. my family just went through a "nasty" estate settlement. i could not believe how some parties had no reguard for keeping certain valuable family heirlooms within the family. it was just a piece of junk they could sell and buy a new boat with. my dad just gave me my great-great grandfathers pocket watch that he carried on the railroad at the turn of the century. i dont care how much money it was worth, i would never part with it, it is the LAST material link to my past. i feel that monroes mandolin is the last material link to ours as mandolinist.

looks like the same thing is getting ready to happen with johnny cash's estate.

in the end, as usual, the lawyers will be the ones making all the money on this deal. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[luckylarue]

It's too bad for the Monroe foundation - they seem like good people w/ good intentions. On our move from Maine to New Mexico this Sept., I talked my wife into a detour to Rosine to see Bill's grave amd visit the ol' home place. I was surprised as to how un-developed the site was, It really felt like going back in time - being there. To me, it felt like a really special place and Mr. Mercer's low- key approach seemed like the right way to preserve this national treasure. We were the only ones there besides the caretaker and his family(Mr. Mercer was out at the time).
I was blown away to be hanging out on the land that bore musical legends - and we had the place all to ourselves! It was really cool to be hiking up Jeruselem Ridge, mando in hand and then play the tune there, on the spot. I'm sure many of you have experienced this as well.
Hard to blame Mr. Monroe, though. From what I've read, Bill wasn't around much as a father so I'm sure James feels he's entitled to whatever he can get for the mandolin.

[kudzugypsy]

i would like to sincerely add (about my comments on james & bills mando & to mark) that as mark said I am not in his (james') shoes, and that sometimes we have the erroronious believe that we would do X, and not realize that every situation is unique to the individual.
i do not have all the facts in this case and not "inside" with any info. therefore, just take my opinions as that...personal opinions. character assalts are really of no use here and i really find the cafe to be more hospitible than most discussion groups and dont intend to break up the party.
thanks and sorry if any feathers were ruffled. happy pickin' http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Rroyd]

This is probably a "shutting the barn door after the horse already gone" thought, but some of the joking comments earlier in the thread about raising funds by the cafe members made me wonder. . .
I just got the new Bluegrass Unlimited with listings of nearly 600 festivals. #How many of the promoters might consider a dollar "surcharge" on day passes, and maybe three or five dollars for a weekend pass, to go toward the goal of the purchase of the mandolin? #I'm in agreement with kudzugypsy; once it's gone, it's gone, and when it's no longer connected to its roots (hanging on a speculator's wall) I can't see it retaining it's present value. #Imagine this conversation a few years from now, in an office on Wall Street. #"No, that's not a ukelele. #It's Bill Monroe's mandolin. #I paid 1.5 million for it several years ago."
#"Who's Bill Monroe?"
# Anyway, let's hope for a postponement, and you all contact your local festival promoters, and then when the trial comes up in a couple of years, Mr. Mercer can have cash in hand to plead his case.

[Charlie Derrington]

It was settled for an undisclosed amount. Also, George was either misquoted on Loar values or he just hadn't had his morning cup-o-joe.

http://www.tennessean.com/local....3870620 (http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/05/01/63870620.shtml?Element_ID=63870620) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Dang, I was hoping to see it come up on the Cafe classifieds!

It would make a great addition to my burgeoning collection of one mandolin.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[JimW]

Charlie, I bet George's quote came from some archives. Sounds about what the value was at the original time of the sale.

[Bill Snyder]

All I know about this case is what I have read here on the cafe and the linked articles, so basically nothing of real substance. Having said this it seems to me that the mandolin should be James Monroes to do with as he will. Depending on what the original terms of the purchase contract were I would not have any problem with the court allowing Mr. Monroe to keep the money already paid him or if they made him pay some/all of it back.
Would it be nice and perhaps desirable for James Monroe to make sure that the mandolin some how ended up on display for bluegrass fans to enjoy? Sure. Does it make him EVIL if he just tries to maximize his profit? I don't think so.
I probably would not drive 5 miles out of my way to see if admission was free, although I understand why others would.
I would much rather listen to the music made with the instrument than stare at it on display in a glass case.

[Mandobar]

when issac stern passed away his violins were willed in such a way as his family could not profit from the sale of them. they were donated to a foundation that lends them out to be played by concert violinists. his belief was that they were built to be played and that is the way he wanted them to stay.

[mrbook]

There is always the possibility that it will be bought by a casino, one of the few entities with lots of cash to throw around today. If so, we might be be able to view it someday - perhaps next to the famous grilled cheese sandwich.

[WillPick4Beer]

for 1.2 million, i wonder what kind of strings come with it? is the case in good shape? does it have a pick up? hows the action?
seriously though . . . if there wasnt a dispute going on like this, i think i woke up on the wrong planet. its human behaviour like this that led to the creation of blues music, and then, thankfully, to bluegrass music. i'm feeling inspired to write a song right now. this is poetry in motion kids.

[Elliot Luber]

In Isaac Stern's case, we're talking about one of only a handful of perfect Stradivari. While the Monroe Gibson is a classic, it was rebuilt. Stern moved to not deprive future greats of his instrument. He didn't want it in a museum or a private collection. He wanted it the hands of competent players who would appreciate it. It's difficult to put a price on a fine instrument and a fine legacy, but when you bring the lawyers to bear something is lost and it's sad. We're talking about a musical treasure, and it should remain musical.

[J. Mark Lane]

quote from original article:

......Meanwhile, James Monroe has filed another suit against Mercer’s foundation to bar it from using Bill Monroe’s name to raise money. That suit is pending in federal court.

its gonna be pretty hard to raise money if they cant use Monroes name. seems like a smart move by james to make sure the money doesnt get raised, thus voiding the deal.
Another preposterous and insulting statement. #Bill Monroe's name is something a lot of people would like to trade on. #Maybe I'll market a "Bill Monroe Line of Mandolin Straps." #Maybe I'll make lots of money. #Maybe I'll make enough money to buy The Mandolin!

A family has every right to prohibit others from profiting from the use of a deceased family member's name. #And families and estates of famous people do just that, all the time. #And well they should. #Dr. Mercer may be a fine man, and may have nothing but good intentions. #But unless the family gives him the right, which they may have many reasons not to, he has no right to use the Bill Monroe name. #

It's one thing if you think The Mandolin should end up in some kind of "museum" or something (which of course is what Dr. Mercer wants to do with it). #Fine. #You're entitled to your opinion. #But if you want to comment on the facts of this situation, you should have a little greater knowledge of them. #And if you're going comment on the legal issues...well, probably you just shouldn't.

Mark

[s1m0n]

A family has every right to prohibit others from profiting from the use of a deceased family member's name.

Can you document that assertion? Dead folks are public domain, except under exceptional circumstances. James Monroe may be able to claim such a circumstance, but it's not an absolute right.

[luckylarue]

Hey kudzu,

No need to apologize for anything. I find it somewhat condescending for anyone to claim to be more knowledgeable than anybody else regarding this subject - unless of course you are one of James Monroe's lawyers or Mr. Mercer!

[Pete Braccio]

Can you document that assertion?

Dod a Google search on "estate sues". There are plenty of news reports that you can read through for documentation.

As for Mercer, there is this quote from the Tennessean as well: "Relations between the industrial foundation and Mercer turned sour, and he sued the group separately alleging breach of contract." Seems everyone likes to demonize James (who I know nothing about and who may well deserve this), but the only facts I know of is that he offered to sell it to Mercer, Mercer couldn't come up with the money, and somehow Mercer seemed that he was entitled to the mandolin anyway. Everything else is rumor. The biggest one is the rumor that James is selling it to the Japanese. I think Scott started that one here as an April Fools day joke.

Pete

[jasona]

Would personality rights cover a Bill Monroe Mark?

(I know enought about law to get myself into terrible trouble, but not out again http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

[J. Mark Lane]

A family has every right to prohibit others from profiting from the use of a deceased family member's name.

Can you document that assertion? Dead folks are public domain, except under exceptional circumstances. James Monroe may be able to claim such a circumstance, but it's not an absolute right.
I have no intention of "documenting" anything. Your assertion that "dead people" are "public domain" is incorrect to the point of being absurd. Suffice to say, it is my not particularly humble opinion that before you "trade" on that assumption you should seek legal advice.

Mark (up at 3 a.m. to feed the baby, alas)

[pickinpox]

One thing I have always wondered about since I first heard about this transaction, if it was sold to the museum, would they really have the facilities to protect it from theft? I can't imagine it being a very safe place for such a high profile instrument.......just planning.......er.....thinking out loud http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[WillPick4Beer]

i think James should donate the mandolin to "The official Bill Monroe Homeless Pickers Association" i.e. . . . me!

[f5loar]

I just wish these reporters and others closely connected to the facts would get the dates right. He did not buy it in 1943, it was 1945. Monroe was not in Florida in 1943 or 1944 for that matter but was in Jan. of '45 and he came home with his new found sound of the bluegrass mandolin and went into the studio on that cold Feb 13 of 1945 with the his new song inspired by the Loar "Rocky Road Blues". With the sound of that mandolin and the backup of Scruggs's rolling banjo and Flatt's back rhythm guitar beat created what is known today as Bluegrass music.

[TommyK]

I wonder why Gibby hasnt ponied up the money to buy it.???
Maybe they're still miffed at Bill for the gibsonectomy he did on the headstock! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[TommyK]

My daddy had a saying, "A man usually builds an empire, his son preserves it and his grandson whizzes it all away." (my daddy had a different word for whiz, but this is a famiy show)

[TommyK]

If Mercer still needs to pony up funds, I think some of you have hit upon a potential gold mine. At $218/head the readers here could pay for the BM Mando (notice how I didn't use the family name). #Not all of us have that kind of money lying around, nor the inclination to raise it for the priviledge of playing these reassembled pieces of history. #However... How much would SOME people be willing to pay to 'rent' her for a night / week? #
What if the "Father of Bluegrass Mandolin" showed up at different festivals across this great nation and at each one, one lucky sole was given 20 minutes on stage with her?
How much would the cash poor among us be willing to pay for a chance (raffle) to commune her for 20 minutes?

Second, while the family may be able to prevent Mercer from using Bill's name to promote their foundation there are ways around it. #Why not name it "Father of Blugrass Mandolin Preservation Foundation"? #Anyone who knows BG knows who that is. #Also, there's nothing to prevent them from promoting an event displaying the mandolin once owned by Bill Monroe. #"...once owned by Bill Monroe" is just a statement of fact and can't be barred by anyone. Even the "Bill Monroe Mandolin" might be permissible as the subject is Mandolin, an inanimate object the BM is an adjective with "owned by" implied. #Ever see perfume labeled '...our version of OBESSSION"? #The people at Obsession can't do anything to prevent it because it's a statement of fact, not a claim to be OBSESSION. #....they will have to consult a... lawyer on the exact wording to stay out of legal trouble.

[grant_eversoll]

Wait...we can't call it the "BM Mando" that would be a shi**y thing to call bills loar.:D

[Moose]

Just an observation - and opinion : I've been following Bill Monroe - and absorbing "Monroe(ism) for most of my life ; Bill didn't seem to take particularly "good" care of his mandolin(s) - (of course I'M SURE he used some discretion in "handing" it to someone) - hence.., in death.., I really think he would appreciate the "right" player(s) useing it for recording/performance(s) - This is JUST my opinion and I would NEVER try to "second-guess" Mr. Monroe. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[fatt-dad]

Today's Quote:

"I always wanted him to be the last one to play it and hope it's never played again," Monroe said.

Whew!

f-d

[Moose]

Well, it IS James' legal possession now - so, if that's what James said..., that's probably how the scenario will play out - regardless of our desires, opinion(s)and/or wishes for the F5.. - "money talks, and BS# "walks"... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[CharlieKnuth]

My memory may be a little faulty, but I believe it is too late for Bill Monroe to be the last one to play that mandolin. I remember reading that Ricky Skaggs went to visit Bill in the hospital and the mandolin was there. Ricky picked it up and played some tunes for Bill and it was there that Ricky promised Bill that he would work the rest of his life to preserve bluegrass music. Anyone else remember this? I seem to recall that it was in an article in Bluegrass Unlimited.

[tiltman]

A couple of years ago Frank Wakefield said that "the artist formerly known as Bill Monroe" (does that keep me out of legal trouble?) had promised that when he retired that Frank Wakefield could have his mandolin. Mr. Wakefield said that since BM didn't actually retire he had no real claim to it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Just wishing out loud as others have above - maybe Frank Wakefield should be allowed to use it.
However, Frank Wakefield seems to be a little hard on instruments. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Kirk

[Moose]

"The passing of the....mantle(in).. (kinda' like a religious "committment"..) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[fatt-dad]

Isn't it the opposite of what Wakefield says that is what he means?

f-d

(Oh yeah and that mandolin that he has is good enough for his playing).

[Moose]

f5loar: Yes!! - Thank you - look at what just happened at CBS News... - head's rolled due to inaccurate reporting of the "facts"! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[kudzugypsy]

f5loar, dang, no wonder i couldnt find that thing when i set my time machine back to miami, 1943.....i bet i searched every dive barber shop in town. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[TommyK]

"...created what is known today as Bluegrass music.
Just out of curiosity...
Did Bill and the Blue Grass boys really 'create' the genre that became known as 'Bluegrass' or did they just bring it out of the hills and hollers and neighborhoods into the national spotlight and commit it to wax?

[J. Mark Lane]

"...created what is known today as Bluegrass music.
Just out of curiosity...
Did Bill and the Blue Grass boys really 'create' the genre that became known as 'Bluegrass' or did they just bring it out of the hills and hollers and neighborhoods into the national spotlight and commit it to wax?
Yes.

[Moose]

Yes!... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mort]

no!

Sounds like "mountain music" Stuff off the back of 1960's album covers. Louise Scruggs, Folk hype , etc.

I guess I a true believer.

Monroe's mandolin is not the magic. The magic was in Monroe himself. The mandolin is merely the Wizard's WAND. We don't have the Wizard anymore. No one can pick up that mando and make it sound like Bill Monroe cause no one is Bill Monroe. As much as we all want to 'rent' that mandolin for a day and see if we can ... WE CAN'T. You don't hear anyone saying in RockNRoll I'm gonna get me Elvis's guitar and sound just like him. Then again maybe they DO! Oh MY GOD! We Are Just Like Elvis Impersonators! OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! what have i done to myself.

[kudzugypsy]

in reply to the "who created bluegrass" debate, i think it was not solely monroe, but more monroe's band of 1945 that created that sound. i really think that had scruggs, flatt and wise not been in that band, we would have our definition of bluegrass today. as far as the f5 mandolin goes, it DID change monroes sound, but so did his style change after the 3 finger banjo took a more central roll. the proof is right there in the historical recordings. listen to pre-45 monroe, and post monroe.
there were A LOT of string bands in those days, monroe was just able to move it forward, not the old hillbilly style that was so predominate before the war. the original monoe brothers recording were really no different that many of the other southern string bands / brother duets. but with the addition of scruggs, he really raised the bar. i think that is why he was so mad at flatt and scruggs all those years (after they left). how could they take "his" music and call it something else. but afterward, he never went back to that old pre-45 sound.
as a side note, i played with one of bills ex-bluegrass boys for many years (often, still do). he was in monroes group at the time flatt & scruggs got inducted into the grand ol opry. he was standing by the pay phone when bill got word that F&S would be on the opry that next night (sat). he said bill dropped the phone and left the band stranded in florida right there on the spot. he was very intent on not allowing them on the opry.

i think bill knew that mandolin was a key element that created his music, he said so many times.

[Dan Cole]

Hypothetical, If I found Monroe's Loar in an attic and all it was was a Gibson F-5 Lloyd Loar mandolin, in its current condition, and wasn't attributed to anyone, how much would it be worth? As Loars go, Monroe's in my opinion and only based upon photos I've seen is, its trashed. Especially when compared to that Fern Loar that was at Elderly a while ago. I'm sure its worth fairly good money because of what it is, but without the providence, Monroes Loar IMHO is just a Loar mandolin, in less than fair condition. Its even worse than the flavor of the month term "Distressed".

[J. Mark Lane]

That's "provenance."

[Darryl Wolfe]

One trashed up Lloyd Loar that is playable...30-70k
Finding out that it has "The Father of Bluegrass Music" "provenance"..............priceless.

George Gruhn has the following could have been $125,000 (minimum) guitar for sale..AB6937 Martin OM-45, 1932, replacement neck with original peghead veneer, body amateurishly refinished, top sanded thin, repaired back and side cracks, HC, as is......$12500