Are the vast majority of 1970's Gibson F-12's a poor choice?

[hedgehog]

While researching this subject it seems that the 1970's Gibson F-12's are somehow unworthy of consideration. If they are truly all glorified fire wood, why?

[Willie Poole]

I have never seen one that was original that I liked....A lot of stuff that came from Gibson during that time period wasn`t very good....I don`t know the reason, maybe just quality control wasn`t up to par....Some of the F-5`s sounded pretty decent after having the tops recarved or replaced and I did hear one F-12 that had the top recarved and it was decent so I assume Gibson was making the tops way too thick....

Willie

[hedgehog]

Hmmmmmm well thats an answer and I thank you for it.

The reason I asked is because I just got one in an E-bay auction. It's a 1970s F-12 with a pink lined rectangular case. The mandolins neck has some finish issues that appear to be a reaction to the lining or the finish is soft. The seller says that it's not a reaction to the lining but has something to do with the owners hand oil. The finish certainly does have an imprint of the lining in it though. I paid $2500 for it, but since there doesn't apear to be any real value there I will most likely refinish the neck, possibly a speed neck. I'm hoping that I didn't make a mistake here ...... well at least it's a true Gibson. So, was it a mistake?

[BradKlein]

You tell us! Was it a 'mistake'? If that's the biggest mistake you make in life, you've done very, very well.

Seriously, report back and let us know. And include photos. And details of any mods or set up issues. You're among fellow mando-weenies... we can't wait to hear!

[hedgehog]

Yeah, now is the nervous waiting for delivery part of the story. I've enjoyed my the Loar LM-600, but I have to admit to being swayed a little with a desire to own an American made instrument. Why? I cannot honestly answer that question.

Here is a link to the mandolin:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320969446504&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160

From the pictures it looks relatively stock, but you really never know until it's in your hands. The neck has issues; there is some chipping in the lacquer in several places on the binding and the tail piece is warn. I generally don’t like gold plate for the amount of wear it shows. It’s what you can’t see and you can’t seem to get answers to that worries me. Is the neck straight, does the truss rod work properly, is there any internal damage you can’t see and does it need any fret work. I admit to being nervous about this purchase.

[lenf12]

I have to agree with Willie's observations on all original Gibson F styles from the 70's. I know a guy with a 74 F-5 that was great looking but not so great sounding until he got the "treatment" from Randy Wood. Also, I have a '56 F-12 that went off to Randy 4 years ago for his re-voicing treatment (regraduation of the top and replacing the tone bars). In the 4 years since getting it back it has developed into my fine sounding "go to" mandolin, granted it's 20+ years older than yours. I'd recommend getting it and playing it for a few weeks or months before you decide whether it was a poor choice. Then you can decide to either pass it along or get the treatment yourself. You certainly won't lose any money either way. Heck, the pink lined brown case alone makes me jealous.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[journeybear]

I'm sure f5loar will ring in soon enough - he has some distinct and well-formed opinions on the subject - but I do have some personal observations as a former owner of a late 70s F-12 for 30 years until it was stolen, five years ago last week. (My research re: the SM indicated it was a 1966, but I must defer to expert observations of physical details to determine its age.) My memory has faded, but I recall it took a good bit of playing to sound good, and I do mean years. I don't think it would ever get to sounding like what a lot of people would think of as really right, but it sure did play nicely. To contrast it with my current 1917 plain A - the F-12 played better and looked better, but the A sounds better, and that is the #1 consideration. ;) Your cost of about three times mine may well be in keeping with how these prices have risen over that time frame. Good luck with it! I hope you are happy with it. Hopefully all that is wrong with it are cosmetic imperfections that don't affect the sound. That is exactly what kept people bidding on my A and how I got it. It's all about the sound, and if it pleases you, that's all that matters. :mandosmiley:

[hedgehog]

After bidding, not the time for research, I did a search and followed the threads mentioning your lost F-12. Stealing sucks, 28 years ago I lost a motorcycle I dearly loved to a theif. I hate'em for it to this day.

[Michael Eck]

I have to say I had an opportunity to purchase a 72 F-5 (I believe that was the model, but it was definitely F) and it was darn near awful. Thin sounding and anemic. I held out for a 2001 F-9, which is a great instrument.

[hedgehog]

Not much encouragement available here. Well a least it will be a Mandolin shaped stick of firewood. That is if I allow my optamism (sp) to be swayed. By god it will be the very best sounding 1970's F-12 mandolin ever sold by Gibson and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

[f5loar]

In some respects the 70's F12 were better then the 70's F5. For some reason they didn't corrode around the binding like the F5s. F5s were a tad bit thicker all over. The F12 and F5 of the 70's suffered from heavy varnish, yes varnish not lacquer as many have thought. It's like they double dipped them for durability. So if it picks good it's worthy of maybe getting a regrad of the tone bars, top and back. The tone bars are pretty darn thick by Loar standards. You didn't pay too much but you didn't steal it either. The F5s of the 70's if in really good non-corroded condition can fetch up to $4500 (normal price around $3000) so half that for an F12 is not that bad.

[f5loar]

and PS: i would not remove finish from neck. It's not that bad from the photos I saw. Just need a good french polish job to slick it up and it will look much better than those stupid stripped speed necks. Removing the finish off the neck is not going make you any faster not to mention it will devalue it. You either got it or you don't. Get you a can of "Fast Fret" if you want to haul asX on the neck.

[almeriastrings]

The "philosophy" driving Gibson back then was to build everything thick and heavy, primarily because they (the then-corporate owners) wanted to avoid the possibility of warranty repairs (cuts into profits, you see). You can read about the "debate" that this created with Roger Siminoff when they first tried to "bring back" the mandolins to original specs... in addition to over-building, they also used a lot of really lacklustre materials, and then (just to add icing to the cake) covered them in that "swimming pool" finish. Then they wondered why they weren't selling too good and all those "little makers" and backyard fake producers were starting up...

Gotta love those pink cases though.

[AlanN]

quote: Removing the finish off the neck is not going make you any faster ...You either got it or you don't.

Hooray.

[hank]

How much does the good Doctor charge for a bar trim and top platectomy?

[lenf12]

How much does the good Doctor charge for a bar trim and top platectomy?

Hi Hank,

You'll have to contact the "good doctor" for his current pricing. Four years ago, the price started at $600 + shipping and went up from there depending on what else the doctor determined it needed. His varnish refinishes at the time were about $2500. I passed on the refin since I really like the looks of the mid 50's finish on mine, with much nitro lacquer checking. Total 50's vintage vibe!!

Re: the speed neck sidetrack, that black paint Gibson used on my F-12 neck was totally horrible and sticky. In bright light, you could see that the neck is figured maple rather than mahogany suggesting that the mando was re-necked with an F-5 neck at some point in time, likely during the 70's (see my avatar to the left). I sanded the paint off and improved it's playability enormously especially for here in humid, sticky Florida. I have absolutely no regrets for any sacrifices in vintage value since imo the neck isn't original to the mandolin and was not very playable for our weather conditions. However, these were all individual decisions I made and may not be appropriate for every Gibson mandolin from "the dark period". YMMV

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[hedgehog]

In my overly late reseach it was noted by one of the "many" posters that Gibson quietly switched to a maple neck for its 1970s (or late 1960s) F-12's. I can see it's maple, don't believe the neck was changed on mine.

Varnish - I always find the prefered finishes on various instruments to be interesting. The holy grail for a banjo seems to be Nitro Cellulose Lacquer with very little interest in other finishs. In the mandilin world a Nitro finish is nice but "oh MY Goodness" do people ever love a Varnish finish. Everybody seems to hate a Poly finish even though manufacturers have written that Poly is as good as anything else and far easier to apply well. A Poly finish certainly is far more durable with NO natural checking to be seen.

The finish issues on this neck are obvious and it is coming from Sarasota Fl which follows along with what Len wrote about finish issues. I am picky and I am a Banjo guy so messing with instruments and rifle stocks for that matter is sort of in my blood. People say that I'm good at it too. So, a partial neck refinish will likely happen, nothing radical. I do agree with f5loar on the speed neck, but if I completely mess up the original neck finish a speed neck is ALWAYS an easy option and I can use the Speed Neck option as an excuse. Not to worry though, I have no illusions about ANYTHING making me faster or even better, I'm no musician, music is in my dreams, a little of it is in my blood, very little of it is actually in my body or hands. What I can do is help a slightly broken down 3rd runner up in a 4H beauty pagent regain some of her modest looks. When I'm done I hope it will be difficult to tell that she's ever been touched. Thats my hope anyways.

[hank]

Thanks Len, we moved up here to N/W Arkansas from the coast and what a difference the lack of humidity makes in neck tackiness and body perspiration on finishes. Axe wax helps too but I don't use it as much up here. Hedge hope it's a good one and tweaks out nice for you.

[hedgehog]

I've just GOT to ask. When the top is recarved or the tone bars reshaped, how do they take the top off without seriously damaging the finish? It seems like a refinish would be required, or at least a partial refinish.

[Danny Clark]

usually you have so much in the regrad that you can buy a modern Gibson for about the same money ,and it will be lots better sounding,i have owned several from the 70,s ,most were awful ,one 1976 i had was pretty good tho,the worst ever i had was a 1949 F-12 ,awful sounding!!!!

[hedgehog]

Yeah I can see where cost might be a limiting factor in what would be a rebuild in the end. I am wondering about reshaping the tone bars though. I know that the guitar mechanics can reshape those with the top on, but with an F hole instrument I'm not so sure that's possible.

At this point I'm not looking for a volume beast, my mandolin use is mostly walking around the house or sitting out on the porch looking for a song hiden in the strings.

[lenf12]

I've just GOT to ask. When the top is recarved or the tone bars reshaped, how do they take the top off without seriously damaging the finish? It seems like a refinish would be required, or at least a partial refinish.

"Dr. Wood" removes the back (not the top) to regrad the top from the inside. While I have never done it myself, I've seen a video of/by Bryan Kimsey where he saws off the back by making the cut between binding and wooden rib. After the interior work is completed, the back is reglued and the cut seam is touched up to hide it. I have a difficult time even seeing the cut, the job is fairly invisible.

The key to making the purchase of a 70's F-12 financially worthwhile is getting it cheap. The market for them keeps the price relatively low although some sellers try to leverage the Gibson name and reputation. If you got for a good price, sinking in another $600 to make it sound really good was a no-brainer for me. YMMV

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[hedgehog]

Well yes, removing the back does make far more sense. Iwas imagining the use of a hot knife along the hide glue joint between the top (bottom) and the sides. I don't think I got mine cheap, but not at a bad price either. Would doing this decrease the resale value? It seems like an improvement like this would increase or at least not hurt the resale value. Especially since it is well known in the mandolin world that these are generally not good instruments.

[Andy B]

My experience with 70's F5's has been OK. Years ago a friend had a very clean 70's F5 that sounded pretty good and looked very nice. I have also seen few for sale over the years that I liked. I've not played any 70s F12s, but the photos of the one you bought looked nice too. Perhaps when it comes you'll find you have a mandolin that you like as is.

[lenf12]

I don't think I got mine cheap, but not at a bad price either. Would doing this decrease the resale value? It seems like an improvement like this would increase or at least not hurt the resale value.

Hi again Hedge,

I think you got your F-12 at a very fair price; not cheap but not a ripoff either. I traded a Weber Yellowstone mandola for my '56 F-12. I had gotten the 'dola for $2600, not much more than you paid for your F-12. You should easily be able to get your $$$ back if you decide to sell it. Seems to me with all this talk of resale value however, you are emotionally prepared to dislike your purchase and move it on to the next buyer. I say, take possession and play it for a few months to give it a chance to prove it's value to you. It is a very handsome instrument that may even sound great. Never know...........vintage Gibson F style mandolins for under $3K don't come along everyday and "Dr. Wood" can certainly correct any sonic deficiencies you feel it may have. Have patience and give it a bit of time (my free 2 cents worth).

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[hedgehog]

lenf12 - This is just an exercise in preparing myself for the possibility that this won't be a great mandolin. It's also an exercise in finding out what options are available if it isn't. My instruments tend to find a permanent home when they land on my door step. My ear simply isn't all that critical. I will be happy if it plays as easily as my LM-600.

From endlessly looking at the pictures of the F-12 I find it difficult to tell if it's been played a lot. It shows signs of both being and not being played. The neck and tailpiece show wear, but the body shows practically no pick marks or tummy wear you'd expect. It's possible the guy had VERY aggressive sweat. I asked about fret wear, the seller says there isn't any, but you really can't tell the full truth about that untill your changing strings and can get a very clear look.

When I finally get it I'll do what I usually do. It will get a hard once over; the strings will come off, the fret board will get a complete cleaning, the frets will get buffed up (not mechanical), in the process the fret board and bridge will get a nice lemon oil treatment, the nut will be inspected and lubed along with the tuners ....... basically the mandolin will get the maintenance it might not have had in years. Then I will play it until my fingers bleed. Very shortly I will know more about this mandolin than anyone has known in years. Not until then will I make decisions on what to do and what not to do. As I've said before, the neck will see some attention, I hope it won’t take much more than a really good buffing. I do find it disturbing that some of the black stain is missing near the transition between the black and the clear varnish. I'm not fretting (worrying) about that though. I'm beginning to get a bit of an underdog syndrome attached to this underrated ol’ girl. I love an underdog. Among the several posters here you have shown a continuing level of support that I do appreciate, thank you.

[MandoBoyF12]

Hey, I was sorta watching this one on Ebay!
FWIW.....I play a 1970 F-12, and have played it for around 15 years. Someone did whittle the top down a bit at some point before I came across it. It was a pretty good mando then, and has done nothing but get better. In fact, it does so day to day. All the same...I've played a few Loars, here and there (not owned, mind you)...not all were the magical piece you'd expect. You never know, it could turn out to be a monster with some working over. All depending on if you want to play it, or display it.
JTom

[hedgehog]

Ohhh it will be played, I simply can't spend this kind of money and not play it. For someone like me $2500 is a lot of money, a whole lot of money. This is by far the most expensive instrument or over all toy for that matter I've ever owned. It needs to be played. I'm sure its asleep, so bring on the noise! It deffinately will get the sit in front of a set of speakers treatment.

[MandoBoyF12]

Yes! Play it! Make it talk!

91300

[Dan Margolis]

Gibson's flattop guitars from the early '70's usually weren't very good either.

[Mandolin Mick]

For whatever its worth, Charles Johnson at Mandolin World is selling an F-12 that was reworked by Randy Wood. A detailed description is given on what he did to it. First listing under Gibson F hole mandolins.

[lenf12]

I love an underdog. Among the several posters here you have shown a continuing level of support that I do appreciate, thank you.

Hey Hedge,

From one F-12 owner to another, you are entirely welcome!! Please give us all a review when you get it and keep us posted on its development. I, for one, am very interested in getting your impressions.

Enjoy!!
Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[hedgehog]

Well, now I'm beginning to get it. The F-12 arrived today. It was a bit dirty and the strings were toast. The seller loosened the strings for shipping when tuning it up the second E string popped, so I just started cleaning her up.

First off it has the stock Gibson bridge complete with serial number written on the bridge. This is one hard heavy piece of wood, far different from the one on my LM-600. All in all it' a beautiful thing.

The finish is much different from what I'm accustomed too. THe neck was not in great condition, but it's not bad enough to warrent a refinish. I polished the rough spots up a bit and it's quite acceptable. The neck surprised me some. No surprise it's much smaller than my LM-600. What I am pleased about i the ease of hitting some frets I've been struggling with on the bigger LM-600 neck. I think I'm beginning to like the old style neck profile.

The tuners while acceptable are not of the same quality as the ones on the LM-600.

I thouht I'd be bothered by the obvious finish ware. Now that it's in my hands I quite like the look of the old finish.

The fret board and frets show very little wear. It cleaned up nicely.

The top is obviously thicker than my LM-600. The action is FAR better than my LM-600. On the Gibson the string pairs are much closer together and the action is much lower. The volume isn't impressive, but it is very enjoyable to play. This mandolin has a much more refined feel to it. It might not be the best instrument Gibson ever produced, but I like it.

[D C Blood]

Good to hear...maybe it won't need any more than new strings and a good set-up. My first F-model was a late 50s model F-12, bought in a South Philly pawnshop for $125. I later traded it to John Duffey for an F-2 and some cash, and he converted it to an F-5. It wasn't great but not too bad.

[hedgehog]

The Gibson killed off my LM-600, sorry LM-600. Why? The LM-600 was my first real mandolin, but to get it where I really wanted it to be it would have needed a fret board leveling, a new nut and bridge. This was made very clear by the Gibson F-12. The F-12 might not be as loud, I honestly can't tell, but it is FAR more refined. The string action is far lower, the fret board is flatter, the string spacing is wonderful. All could have been fixed on the LM-600, but you simply can't easily fix the thick neck. This was something I couldn't appreciate until spenting time with the Gibson. I thought the wider nut and thicker neck profile was better, easier to handle with my fingers, I am not ashamed to admit that I was wrong. I suppose it's new owner happiness, but I can't get over the over all quality of the Gibson. The LM-600 went down the road along with my GF-85 banjo. Now my main instruments are all American made, an OME Juniper Banjo and the F-12 Gibson. Even though I've not been anti China in my thinking, it does make me happy in some way to have American instruments.

[hank]

Congratulations on your new to you mandolin. I'm glad you got a good one and like the setup. I found the same thing as you on your neck and string spacing preferences. I also was brand neutral and open to whatever came up the pike but through playing different instruments and setups found I really preferred a closer string spacing and narrower neck with the strings down low and close to the frets. So far as flat or radiused I often can't tell them apart from playing them alone without looking to physically see the curve.

[Barry Platnick]

Congratulations!
I have an F12 that I love.

[hedgehog]

Thanks, this was a good move, for me an expensive move, but I'm very pleased.

[lenf12]

Thanks, this was a good move, for me an expensive move, but I'm very pleased.

The pleasure of owning and playing your Gibson will last far longer than the memory of its cost. Congratulations!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[f5loar]

You mentioned the action was low. If you can take it (Big Mon certainly could) with each 1/2 turn of the bridge wheels up can increase your volume. You reach a point where it's uncomfortable but between too low and too high is that just right for you sweet spot that would give your F12 it's maximum potential in volume and tone. The 70's were a low time in Gibson's long history, no dispute in that, but they still had quality people building them then too. They just didn't have any "Lloyd Loars" around to check each one going out the door and few slipped by that probably should have gone in the trash. Sounds like you did get a good one.

[hedgehog]

I know volume and bridge height are related in a banjo, I like the tallest bridge I can get away with on mine, but a banjo is a different breed of cat with a super responsive drum head. It surprises me to hear the same about a mandolin, but I suppose the same principals apply.

Honestly I probably wouldn't know a good mandolin from a bad one, I thought this one would lack responsiveness, or sustain or any number of other qualities associated with great instruments, so far I've been pleased. At first it was slightly dead, but as the srtings settled in the mandolin seemed to wake up quite a bit. I used J75's to begin with thinking that heavier strings would drive a thicker top better than J74's, seems like a good choice so far.

An interesting asside. This mandolin has the tuning spiral gear on top, with the gear on bottom. My LM-600 was the other way around. This surprised me because I knew the older Gibsons were on top but thought that went away long ago. Well, the mandolin is 38 years old, but I though they changed long before that. Is there any advantage/dis advantage to gear pposition?

Also, the buttons seem very soft to me. I use a power winder on new strings. It's supposed to be a good one, nice and solid with a soft florescent green plastic socket for the tuner button. When I got done and was fine tuning the buttons were roughened up. Not something you can see with the eye, but you can feel it. I'm considering pulling the old buttons (keeping them safe) and replacing them with ivaroid buttons. Do you know what brand of tuner Gibson used in 1974? I think they will be direct replacements, any thoughts?

[lenf12]

Do you know what brand of tuner Gibson used in 1974? I think they will be direct replacements, any thoughts?

From the pictures in the eBay posting, they look like Gotohs (or possibly Waverly?). Should be easy to get new buttons on there. My F-12 has Gotoh tuners with real pearl buttons. Very nice indeed!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[hedgehog]

My bottons look like pearl, but evidently they are high quality plastic pearl. I'm fairly sure the machines are Gotoh, I can only wish they were Waverly's. After looking Siminoff has buttons that might fit. I really don't want to mess with the stock buttons, but I don't like what my winder did to them after only one restring. Ivoroid buttons are nice looking and durable. My tuners are rather plain (little if any engraving) if compared to the ones shown as direct replacements for the F-12 on the Siminoff site. I don't want additional flash though.