Which pick-up??

[Aravind Bhargav]

Hi everyone!! I m an Indian classical musician playing the electric mandolin. I am a disciple of mandolin u. shrinivas. In my recent concerts i get this really annoying hum sound,occasionally followed by minor electrical shocks. :( i have been asking around and almost everyone i referred to adviced me to change my pick-up. But since there are so many makes and brands, i m at a complete loss. I noticed that almost everyone in this amazing cafe are so knowledgeable about such technical know-how. :) so i humbly request you to please help me with choosing the ideal pick-up. Thank you. :) to give u an idea about the tone of my instrument, here is a link to one of my concert video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=Nuo5wMjYw2c
I want to retain this tone but eliminate the hum and the occasional shock. :) please help.
P.S another important aspect i forgot to mention is the electrical wiring system of the venue. In India, not all venues have safe wiring systems. So that's why i was advised for a pick-up change. That's d only thing i can do to improve my current situation.

[Tim2723]

Hello Aravind,

Tell us more about your set up. What mandolin and amplifier are you using?

[lenf12]

If the electrical system at a particular venue is not wired for safety (i.e. hot, neutral and ground), no pickup change will make it safe nor eliminate the hum. If I got a non-fatal shock playing at this venue, I would pack up my gear and go home, thankful to still be alive.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Jim]

The electric shocks may be more of a problem with your amp. I'd need more info on your system to have an opinion on your pickup.

[Tim2723]

I was going to say earlier that I have heard about the poor electricity in India. My band mate works in computers and deals with people in India often. He talks about a device called an 'isolation transformer' used to regulate the power supply (computers are even more sensitive). Perhaps that's what you need? If the electrical power is damaging your instrument, it might damage a new pickup in time as well??

[Polecat]

Hi Aravind,

Great video, althought I do not really understand Karnatik music, I enjoy listening to it.
As regards your problems, it's difficult to give a reply without knowing further details of your equipment. It looks like you're using an Orange amp, and from the sound I'm guessing it's a pretty old, all-valve model. In order to remove the risk of electric shocks (which could be fatal, so do this!), you need to get it checked out by a competent technician to make sure it is operating properly. In addition, I would ask him to ensure that the input jack socket is insulated from the chassis,and that there is a coupling capacitor between the input and the first amplifier stage. If he's competent, he will know what that means. Tim2723's suggestion to use an isolation transformer is very sensible - what it does is effectively decouple your amp from the mains grid; you need to find out how much current your amp draws, and get one with a suitable power rating. That should sort the safety issues with your amp, and in all probability, the hum will go away. If it doesn't, these measures were not a waste of time and money, because they could save your life!

[Tim2723]

Should you try an isolation transformer I think it's important to get the right one. These are more than the simple 'surge protector' outlet strips used for computers. They are larger, more complex devices that eliminate the high and low spikes in the power source and control the voltage to a constant amount. You should talk to a local expert about the kinds available to you and used in your area. I'm not an electronics expert, so please do not take my advice as your only source of information for this potentially dangerous subject. Seek advice from experts that understand exactly the problem that you have in your part of the world.

[david blair]

Hello, I love your playing style. Nice video.
I looks like a magnetic pickup you are using? The electric shock can be dangerous. This problem is more common with electric guitars than with mandolins, most mandolins use a piezo pickup. A guitar shop can help.
You must ground the pickup to the jack/plug with insulated wire of good quality and also line the underside of the pickup with copper foil. This is important! Next is to use a good quality chord like Monster Cable to reduce any hum.
Make sure to use a quality power strip between your amp and power outlet, and plug everyone/thing on stage through this same link.
Do not remove the ground/third pin from your amplifier chord under any circumstance.

Regards
David

[Tim2723]

That's a good point David. Never defeat the ground of an amplifier (or any other appliance). That is true everywhere in the world.

Aravind, it's important to remember that the U.S. has standardized their mains power differently than India. We use three-prong Type-B outlets (and rarely the obsolete two-prong Type-A) for 120v things like instrument amplifiers, but India uses predominantly Type C and D outlets for 220v at 50 Hz. This is one reason why I caution to check all our advise with a local electrical expert to assure that our experiences will fit your problem. Electricity, especially higher voltage, is potentially dangerous and must be treated with respect and caution.

[mandroid]

Does the power grid's outlet use a 3 connector plug in India?
assuming the post originates from there..

My longer term visit several years ago, I got some admiration
for the UK plug, though Huge,
having a Fuse in the plug itself means It Blows that fuse,

instead of damaging the Thing being powered.
I suspect being a 220 V standard that becomes extra valued ..

does seem to make the water in the Tea Kettle boil faster
than one with a 110v power source..

[Aravind Bhargav]

thank you all for taking the time off to reply to my thread! :) I am sorry for not giving proper details.:redface: my setup is pretty basic. I don't use any effects pedal or processor. its just my mandolin and a stereo cable(planet waves) and an amp(orange crush 20LDX) :) this is the link for the specs of my amp:
http://www.orangeamps.com/crush-pix-cr20ldx/

[Aravind Bhargav]

I was going to say earlier that I have heard about the poor electricity in India. My band mate works in computers and deals with people in India often. He talks about a device called an 'isolation transformer' used to regulate the power supply (computers are even more sensitive). Perhaps that's what you need? If the electrical power is damaging your instrument, it might damage a new pickup in time as well??


Hi Aravind,

Great video, althought I do not really understand Karnatik music, I enjoy listening to it.
As regards your problems, it's difficult to give a reply without knowing further details of your equipment. It looks like you're using an Orange amp, and from the sound I'm guessing it's a pretty old, all-valve model. In order to remove the risk of electric shocks (which could be fatal, so do this!), you need to get it checked out by a competent technician to make sure it is operating properly. In addition, I would ask him to ensure that the input jack socket is insulated from the chassis,and that there is a coupling capacitor between the input and the first amplifier stage. If he's competent, he will know what that means. Tim2723's suggestion to use an isolation transformer is very sensible - what it does is effectively decouple your amp from the mains grid; you need to find out how much current your amp draws, and get one with a suitable power rating. That should sort the safety issues with your amp, and in all probability, the hum will go away. If it doesn't, these measures were not a waste of time and money, because they could save your life!

Thank you Mr. polecat. I am happy that you enjoyed the video. :) I already considered the transformer option, but discarded it when the technicians here said that there was no problem with the amp after checking it. Firstly the amp was silent when plugged even to a 2 pin connection. grounding was not even given to these connections!! :( secondly when they checked it with a tester there was no electrical leakages. its only when the mandolin was plugged in, hum noise was heard. :( when my friend plugged his fender guitar, it was perfect! No noise and no shock! :)
the specs for my amp is here:
http://www.orangeamps.com/crush-pix-cr20ldx/

[Aravind Bhargav]

Hello, I love your playing style. Nice video.
I looks like a magnetic pickup you are using? The electric shock can be dangerous. This problem is more common with electric guitars than with mandolins, most mandolins use a piezo pickup. A guitar shop can help.
You must ground the pickup to the jack/plug with insulated wire of good quality and also line the underside of the pickup with copper foil. This is important! Next is to use a good quality chord like Monster Cable to reduce any hum.
Make sure to use a quality power strip between your amp and power outlet, and plug everyone/thing on stage through this same link.
Do not remove the ground/third pin from your amplifier chord under any circumstance.

Regards
David

Hello sir,
I am happy you enjoyed it. :) my pick-up is not a magnetic one. there are no dedicated guitar shops here in India. :( i tried grounding the pick up. didn't try the copper foil. Thanks for that!! :) my cable is pretty good. a planet waves stereo cable. :) And i believe My amp's ground pin is what that's been keeping me alive so far. :( so i never remove it.

[Aravind Bhargav]

Does the power grid's outlet use a 3 connector plug in India?
assuming the post originates from there..

My longer term visit several years ago, I got some admiration
for the UK plug, though Huge,
having a Fuse in the plug itself means It Blows that fuse,

instead of damaging the Thing being powered.
I suspect being a 220 V standard that becomes extra valued ..

does seem to make the water in the Tea Kettle boil faster
than one with a 110v power source..

Some places have 3 plug connection and some places don't. So if even if i get an awesome 3 plug connector like that, it just cannot be used in some of the venues i perform at. Being a fledgling artist i cannot turn down some of the gigs that come my way. :( India lacks a lot in the safety department where lot of venues for gigs are concerned. :( because here a lot of musicians in my genre don't need that many processors or gadgets for their performance. :(

[Aravind Bhargav]

my mandolin is a locally made unbranded one. designed by my guru, U shrinivas sir. here is the pic of my mandolin.90925

[mandroid]

There were those Vox soprano 12 string electrics too, Beatle George, had one of those..

no doubt something like that would be interesting,
half scale length of a regular guitar.. possible to set up those as 4 courses of 3 strings too

Or something built built like Norwegian fiddles , 4 played and extra under the fingerboard drones,


so, sitar like too..

5th tuning puts a big range on, compared to 4ths on guitars, basses.

that 6th string thin, high pitched an octave up and the biggest string 5th one ,
seems musically logical . fGDAeb .. like.. (f 1/2 step off, in same octave as the e)

but that drifts away from pickups..
the ones like Bill Lawrence wrap the wire-coil core around a bar center,
so don't really have poles like many electric guitar pickups ..
so adapt well to many string spacings thereby.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Have you considered a 12-volt battery-powered amp?

Mine, a Crate Taxi 50, goes about 6 hours before needing to be recharged, and such would save you from shocks, because it doesn't matter what the wiring of the venue is like.

Also makes playing in a garden or on the street easy.

Enjoyed your video...most of the Indian classical music I've heard has been Ravi Shankar and Shakti (more jazzish).

[Aravind Bhargav]

Hello Mr.Terry
Thanks for your cool suggestion. :) i really liked your crate amp. But unfortunately it's not available here in India. I checked for the ones that were available and came across models like Roland micro cube which was not to my taste at all. :( and it burns a big hole in my pocket when i purchase an amp and get it delivered from the states. I believe it's more economically viable to get a pick-up .So i am back to square one. :(
thanks for taking the time off to listen to my video. I am happy that u enjoyd it. :)

[mandroid]

Roland, Japan, has a distributor in India.. back of my owner's manual

Riviera Digitec, Mumbai [I found phone numbers cannot be displayed here, on the Cafe]
but the Roland publication offers it , so A PM and I can add that.. if not the search engines of the web

[mandogoshen]

Enjoyed your music very much. Technique is 1st rate. Your mandolin is a 'solid body', yes? Like an electric guitar? From what I've read here and in listening to your concert your problem may be as simple as the ground wire in your mandolin being loose. As the problem is intermittant that would my first guess.

A few years ago I played mandolin in an Irish/Celtic band. Mine had a pick-up similar to yours except it was the same size as a Fender Stratocaster pick-up. My mandolin was a 'hollow body' though and much more prone to feedback. It hummed a little, too. But, once the band started playing one couldn't hear the hum, anymore. Well, eventually the hum got louder. I replaced the stock pick-up with a Bartolini 'stacked-strat humbucker' and the noise disappeared. When the technician replaced my pick-up he removed the stock wiring as well and replaced it with some heavy duty wiring. The mandolin sounded great after all that work and I was able to get much more volume before feedback. Here in the States we refer to that as 'head room'.

So, as long as you're happy with your amp and can amplify it to the size of the hall there's no reason to get a new one. Your problem appears to be in your pic-up/volume/tone assembly. Maybe new, updated wiring? Although, it burns the pocket money spent now will save you many headaches down the road. ;) My recommendation would be to start with the ground wire in the mandolin and work from there.

Again your playing is marvelous. Btw, how is your mandolin tuned? How were you getting the 'drone' sound?

[Aravind Bhargav]

Hello mr. Mandroid,
I already checked the Roland amps, but as i mentioned earlier i was not happy with their sound. They actually have a franchise here in Chennai(the place i live)

[mandroid]

I've got an AC60, Mains powered, not battery.. One useful thing is the backside effects loop.

with it, I can use a multi-effects pedal board, in that loop mono out stereo return,

Yamaha AG 'stomp' adds some nice subtile delay and reverbs
more complex, than in typical amps... they call them mic emulators..
+ it adds a bit more gain in the process, before coming back in
and using the 2 channel's power amps, for the speaker-output

[Aravind Bhargav]

Hello mr. Mandogoshen,
I am happy that you enjoyed my music. :) i agree with you that my pick up tone and volume assembly was faulty. Though i did get it fixed, i still was getting more than noticeable hum sound. My teacher advised me to go for a reputed pick up imported from US or UK. As the local brands here really have no clue how to make quality pick ups. So i was checking up on Google and was positively bamboozled by the numerous brands and makes. So i decided to turn to this great cafe for advice. :) that bartlini you mentioned.. can you please give me more info?? Right now i am ok with spending money for importing a pick up. Anything!! To improve on my current situation!! :(
Anyway thank you so much for taking the time off and enjoying my music :) as for tuning we tune our instrument to the pattern of C-G-C-G-C. Or sa pa sa pa sa. The drone sound is from device called sruthi. It nstantly resonates with a constant 3 note pattern. We tune our instrument by listening and matching our strings to the constant drone. :)

[pops1]

If you have a ground wire to your bridge, it should help when you touch the strings to make the buzz go away. If you have this and are getting shocks remove the ground wire and in it's place use a very small very low watt resister. Any shock that would be harmful to you would open the resister and possibly save your life. If you can get a voltage tester like is used to test voltage in house wiring, it's just a light and two wires, hold one of the ends in your hand and the other touch the amp if the ground is wrong it will light the light. If the light is lit, reverse the ground switch or better yet reverse your cord. If you do this every time you plug your amp in it should eliminate your shocks.

[mandroid]

Rented apartments, in Old buildings I have run ground wires to the cold water pipe ,
from the un used screw on the in-wall receptacle .

[mandogoshen]

Great music is great music especially when played with spirit and humility. :)

There is a website: www.stewmac.com They offer pick-ups for electric guitars. My belief from the pictures of you mandolin is that the pick-up I had installed in my mandolin wouldn't fit in yours. Your pick-up appears much bigger. So, I recommend you take a look at the Electric guitar Golden Age Modern P-90 model number 5415. From the description it would seem the most in sympathy with the sound you achieve. Stew-Mac is a very user friendly company that would definately respond to any query promptly and courteously. You may want to upgrade your volume, tone pots and wiring when replacing your pick-up. It only hurts once. :(

Now, about that Bartolini...they have a website: www.bartolini.net They have a variety of pick-up sizes and shapes on their home page. Your pick-up looks like the 'soapbars' or even the 'hum-buckers'(70x39mm). Mine was purchased from a local music store at discount. Which was how I was able to afford it. :)

One more option: bill lawrence pick-ups. www.musiciansfriend.com Put 'bill lawrence' in the site search and their pick-ups will all show up. Hope any or all of this is helpfull. All the best, Mandogoshen.

[John Eischen]

The Golden Age P-90 mentioned above is single coil and will not eliminate hum. I would suggest asking U. Shrinivas for help. He's probably had the same problem and found an appropriate humbucker to replace the pickup in that model mandolin. As with guitars, production models are not necessarily accurate copies of the artist's instrument. My guess is that your pickup is not humbucking. Or, if it is a humbucker then you probably have a minor wiring problem inside the instrument. Contact the manufacturer or dealer.

I've seen similar models with various types of humbuckers, most recently I've seen U. Shrinivas with a double bladed strat style pickup. Dimarzio, Joe Barden, and Seymour Duncan all offer a double blade, I have a splitable Dimarzio in one of my mandolins, and Bardens in a guitar.

91280

[John Eischen]

Or, tune your mando and drones to the pitch of the buzz...
Love your playing!

[mandogoshen]

1)The Golden Age P-90 mentioned above is single coil and will not eliminate hum. I would suggest asking U. Shrinivas for help. He's probably had the same problem and found an appropriate humbucker to replace the pickup in that model mandolin. As with guitars, production models are not necessarily accurate copies of the artist's instrument. My guess is that your pickup is not humbucking. Or, if it is a humbucker then you probably have a minor wiring problem inside the instrument. Contact the manufacturer or dealer.

I've seen similar models with various types of humbuckers, most recently I've seen U. Shrinivas with a double bladed strat style pickup. Dimarzio, Joe Barden, and Seymour Duncan all offer a double blade, I have a splitable Dimarzio in one of my mandolins, and Bardens in a guitar.

91280

1) Didn't pay close enough attention. The poster is correct. It's a single coil as stated. My Bartolini is/was a 'stacked' hum-bucker. It's the same size as a strat pick-up. You'd have to get your scratch-plate re-cut to fit it properly, but I'd think it'd be worth it. Anyway, good luck.

[mrmando]

Hello Aravind,

I'd suggest asking Guruji or his brother what pickups they use.

Or, Pete Mallinson in the UK designs pickups especially for mandolins and would be my first choice for a custom pickup. Here is his website:

http://almuse.co.uk/

[Polecat]

I've spent some time thinking about this problem, and I have to admit that I'm by no means certain where the problem lies. Nevertheless, I hope these thoughts are helpful: It would seem that your amplifier is a solid-state (not valve) model - I can't find any specs for it, but judging by the price, it can't be anything but a transistor amp. Given this, there are no voltages high enough to give you a shock in the circuitry, and if you have had the amp checked out and there are no defects to be found, the problem has to lie in faulty wiring in the building you are performing in, Obviously, you cannot expect the owners to rewire their building for you (they probably wouldn't even do it for Paul McCartney), so you have to adopt a pragmatic solution. Mandroid's suggestion of a supplement ground wire seems to me a very good one. I would recommend you buy about 50 feet of electric cable intended to take mains voltage, and solder a large crocodile clip to each end; also invest in the cheapest (reliable) digital multimeter you can find. For your instrument cable, make sure that the jack plug you stick in your amp is the old-fashioned all metal kind. When you set up, connect one end of your croc. cable, as Mandroid describes, to a water pipe or anything else you can find that is well-earthed. Then, with the range of your multimeter set to AC, check the voltage between the other end of your croc. cable and the metal shank of the jack plug - it should be pretty much 0 V. If it's not, if it is possible, reverse the phase and neutral connections to your amp (an electrician can make you a short extension chord that reverses the cables, if you're not confidant to do it yourself, just make sure you label this cable clearly so that you, or anyone else, won't use it for any other purpose - that, too could be dangerous) and measure the voltage again, it should now be 0 V. Then connect your croc cable to the amp-end jack plug of your instrument cable and you should have a safely-earthed setup, and the risk of electric shock eliminated. Hopefully, if your mandolin is properly grounded, that should also deal with the hum issue. If not, then you may want to change pickups, a matter I don't feel qualified to advise you on, but bear in mind that another pickup will definitely affect your tone, possibly as much as another amplifier, so if you are happy with your sound (which I would be in your case, it's a very full-sounding voice, and I would never have believed that you could get such results from an 8 inch speaker), I would go to every length to solve the problem using the equipment that you have - I do not believe that your pickup can be "broken", possibly something could be done to improve the screening or ground connection, but that would be a matter for a technician who had your instrument before him to judge.
I would also recommend that you do not take my advice at face value, but discuss it with a competent electrician who understands the problems in your part of the world - it may be that I have overlooked something important. I am very impressed that you are a student of U. Shrinivas, I became aware of his playing via Youtube, and often listen to the pieces posted there, Gananayakam is my favourite - please tell him he has at least one fan in Germany! (so do you...)

[Tim2723]

...there are no voltages high enough to give you a shock in the circuitry, and if you have had the amp checked out and there are no defects to be found, the problem has to lie in faulty wiring in the building...you have to adopt a pragmatic solution....discuss it with a competent electrician who understands the problems in your part of the world - it may be that (we) have overlooked something important....

Ditto. I've said this all along. This is not a problem for the Internet community. We cannot solve this from half-way around the world.

[Polecat]

Ditto. I've said this all along. This is not a problem for the Internet community. We cannot solve this from half-way around the world.

You are quite right, Tim2723, we cannot solve Aravind's problem, but it is possible we can give some helpful advice, and that can't be a bad thing

[Tim2723]

Yeah, we can help him not get knocked on his backside until he gets it fixed.

[mandroid]

Electrically Insulating rubbar mat under himself is probably a good start..