Marking A Mandolin For Safety [Archive]

Texas

Aug-15-2012, 12:00pm

I ran across this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?87748-How-can-you-tell-if-a-used-mandolin-is-stolen) on how to know a Mandolin is stolen. And that prompts a question.

I will make a wild guess and say that everyone marks their instruments in some way, but is there a standard area to look at if I'm in a shady pawn shop for marks on an instrument?

Also, I would like to mark my Loar for this reason so again: Is there a standard area to mark?

Thanks.

Peter Kurtze

Aug-15-2012, 12:08pm

I will make a wild guess and say that everyone marks their instruments in some way

Oh, I doubt that. So many of us seem obsessed with keeping our instruments unmarked in any way!

I've seen a few with a set of initials, or driver's license number, etc., scratched somewhere, but most have no identifying marks. Unless I'm just not looking in the right place.

Texas

Aug-15-2012, 12:12pm

I understand that marking a vintage instrument will not be a good idea, and I was thinking of a couple small marks under the top that would never be seen unless you were looking for it.

I figured your answer would be the norm..

shortymack

Aug-15-2012, 1:08pm

I dont think marking it would do anything to show if it was stolen or not and also that the norm is most people dont do it. A S/N is all you really need. It would be great if there was a data base to run a check on instruments. Hmmm, I wonder if something like that exists.

allenhopkins

Aug-15-2012, 1:09pm

You could scratch some info on the inside of the tailpiece cover, where it wouldn't be obvious either to potential thieves, or to future purchasers.

Nearly every quality instrument has a unique serial number (this is really super-obvious info, so excuse me for repeating it); you, I'm sure, keep a record of that number, and if the instrument's stolen, you inform the police who put it out to all licensed pawn shops, second-hand dealers etc. A lot of stuff is recovered that way, surprisingly. Doesn't protect you from those who would steal your Loar just to play it themselves -- and there are such people -- or who would sell it privately.

Your lap-top or your GPS device is infinitely more likely to be stolen than your mandolin, because there's a large, ready market for these things, and thieves know how to make the contacts to sell them quickly, often before you've even reported the theft. Mandolins are a specialized niche, even though we think that everyone knows how wonderful and valuable they are. So if the "general-purpose thief" has any idea what a mandolin is, other than just "some kinda musical instrument in a case," he's probably a lot more likely to select a guitar as being easier to fence.

As a slight hijack, one of the quibbles I have with otherwise interesting TV shows like Pawn Stars, is that they don't show the staff checking serial numbers or doing any checking as to whether an item is stolen. Which, of course, they would be required to do, as neglect of doing so can lead to financial losses, and even criminal penalties.

Brian Ray

Aug-15-2012, 1:40pm

If you see an orange Duff for sale by someone other than me... call the cops!

foldedpath

Aug-15-2012, 1:40pm

The problem with obscure markings like something under the top, or inside the tailpiece cover, is that it can't be readily seen by a non-expert who isn't familiar with handling musical instruments. Ideally you'd want something that could be quickly ID'd with a phone call to the local police, who might be holding the instrument and without the tools or experience to find those hidden marks.

If you're really worried about having something more than a serial number, then get a truss rod cover engraved with your initials or a personalized symbol, and stash the original cover somewhere safe. That's something a thief probably wouldn't spot right away. It wouldn't harm the resale value, and it can be easily used to ID the instrument.

foldedpath

Aug-15-2012, 1:44pm

If you see an orange Duff for sale by someone other than me... call the cops!

Yeah, "security through obscurity" (i.e. a unique instrument) also works! There probably aren't too many Lebeda F5's with solid chocolate brown-stained tops and the neck finish sanded off, either.

Astro

Aug-15-2012, 10:22pm

Lets quit kidding ourselves.

Who is going to steal a mandolin ?

A cleptomandolac ?

pjlama

Aug-15-2012, 10:54pm

A mandolin like that needs to be properly insured. You can bet whoever holds the policy will be even more interested in recovering it than you and has much greater resources to achieve that end. They will also be more than willing to make recommendations on how to keep it safe. I'm sure if we can put a chip in a dog we can chip a mandolin. If I had a Loar I'd put a gps transmitter in place of the ubiquitous rattle.

Ivan Kelsall

Aug-16-2012, 1:55am

In the UK as in the US,animals are 'chipped' & the chip # goes onto a database where the real info.re.the owner is stored.Chipping any instrument would require a similar database & music stores that were willing to scan for chips. Until such a database is set up, maybe by the Insurance Co.your instrument is insured by (it is insured isn't it ?),then it wouldn't work. It's basically a good idea,but needs a well thought out infrastructure to support it,
Ivan

Dave Hanson

Aug-16-2012, 2:56am

Texas, why would it be a good idea to mark your mandolin in a way that everybody knows about ? use a method that only you know, not everybody.

Frank Ford has some good advice about this at FRETS.COM

Dave H

nickster60

Aug-16-2012, 7:49am

Bruce signed my Weber and also add my name to the label. I don't think that would really stop the thief or the pawn shop from buying or selling. But I do have a pretty good deterrent, my Doberman would be happy to take a chunk of the would be thief.

A little story about the pawn shops here in Florida.I Use equipment for my business and my supplier also rents equipment. They rented a cement saw to a guy and he never returned it. On a hunch they walked across the street to the pawn shop and there it was. The called the police and the sheriff came and verified it belonged to the company. The pawn shop sold the saw anyways that day and no charges where filed. Don't count on the pawn shops to do the right thing. At least here thiefs are way down the list for the Sheriffs dept.

Pawn shops have never really been known as a pillar of honesty and ethical values.

Justus True Waldron

Aug-16-2012, 8:50am

I have my name or stickers or some kind of identification mark on pretty much everything I own... except my mandolin. However, I'm pretty sure I'll never need it. Seeing as my mandolin was made totally by hand, and it's one of only 2 nitro finish Macica A models ever made I'm pretty sure I could identify it by pictures alone. You'd have to completely refinish the whole thing in black, pull the fretboard and change the headstock and F hole shape... and even then I'm sure I could recognise it by sound or even feel alone. I suppose that's another advantage of having a totally 1 off instrument...

belbein

Aug-16-2012, 11:54am

The purpose of identification isn't to stop theft. The most likely theft is a quick grab: someone breaks into your house, or your car, or grabs an instrument at a gig or jam. (Or when you leave it on the train or in a taxi.) Those thieves don't take time to look.

The purpose of identification isn't to stop a "fence" from selling the instrument. Thieves have fences whom they use regularly. The fence doesn't care if your name is on it. They want to sell "hot" valuables as quickly and with as little muss and fuss as possible. They are not in the business of calling owners or law enforcement.

Will identification stop a used-instrument seller from selling an instrument they unknonwingly buy from an apparently legitimate owner (who's actually a thief or a fence)? There are some here. I'd be curious about their response.

Identification marks serve only one purpose: to allow the police to identify YOUR mandolin when they catch that nationwide network of Mandolin thieves and go into their warehouse in Plano, Texas* and find thousands of instruments. The one you can prove is yours come back to you. The ones you can only describe? Fuggeddaboudit. (There may also be an insurance thing: there could be an exclusion in your policy if you don't properly mark the insured items, but I'm not certain.)

_____
*No real reason to pick on Plano, other than that I hate the place.

Andy Alexander

Aug-16-2012, 12:02pm

1. Have the serial numbers of all instruments recorded and kept in a safe spot.

2. Put your name, address, and phone # on a slip of paper. Put it under the truss rod cover.

allenhopkins

Aug-16-2012, 12:05pm

...Who is going to steal a mandolin ?...

Well, my friend Neil had a set of Northumbrian smallpipes stolen from his Boston apartment; they were in an expensive-looking rosewood box, which the thief probably never even opened when he/she took them. I often wondered if the crook tried to fence them, but Neil speculated they just ended up in a Dumpster after the thief looked inside the box.

Another friend had a K-1 mandocello stolen from his house by some kids. It was recovered after his son overheard another kid in the school cafeteria bragging on his "new eight-string guitar."

No ID system is going to be a real deterrent. It mainly assists in recovery if and when the police bust either the thief or the fence and have to figure out who owns the swag.

John Flynn

Aug-16-2012, 2:33pm

NFI, there is a service called Stuffbak that has been around for a while. They are mostly focused on electronics, but they claim their service is for "any portable item." They do golf clubs and tennis rackets, so I imagine mandolins are not out of the question. If you have an account with them, you can order labels that have your account number, a toll-free number and indicate a reward is offered for return. The labels come in all sizes, some small enough to fit on a Bluetooth headset. The reward is a minimum of $20, but it can also be any amount you set up front. If someone calls your item in to the toll free number, the service acts as an intermediary to get your item back to you and the reward to the finder. The "finder" and the rightful owner remain anonymous to each other, so even a thief might take advantage of it if the item seemed risky to fence. At least they would get something. This is not a 100% solution, but if I had a mandolin that was irreplaceable, it might be a good adjunct to insurance.

belbein

Aug-16-2012, 8:26pm

Great idea.

barney 59

Aug-16-2012, 11:27pm

Have photos,have serial # and if or when it gets stolen make a formal report to the police. An appraisal registered with your insurance policy might not hurt. If you are lucky enough to have insurance and your instrument isn't recovered they may give you some cash. After that you can make an internet posting at a place like "Mandolin Cafe" --"Stolen Dudenbostle" or whatever and if it shows up somewhere such as a Pawn Shop or music store the store owner might wonder "What's a Dudenbostle?" and while trying to establish a value will likely come across your posting-- at least for a while. After that start a search for instruments that meet the description of yours on ebay and every time one shows up there you'll receive an alert on your email. I've heard of quite a few instruments being recovered when they showed up on ebay. Eventually everything will show up on ebay! I have a friend that was also burned really badly when he posted a valuable instrument on ebay that he had purchased , he thought, legitimately. It had been stolen years before and the owner(who knew it was his the moment he saw the photo) had all the goods -police report etc. The cops showed up at my friends door and here he is in a room full of vintage instruments and one of them certified stolen!
The thief knows it's stolen and if he can pass it on to someone who also knows it's stolen then it's going to likely be a very long time before it surfaces again! If your purchasing an instrument and you did a little research to find out if it was stolen (and there isn't many places to go for that) and you can't find anything it's probably a good idea that you get a receipt at least.

bmac

Aug-18-2012, 7:19am

This is an interesting thread. It seems to assume that we are all going to examine all our mandolins for a penciled in name somewhere on or in the mandolin. And if we find one with a name and phone number, are we really going to call and ask that person if we can return his possibly stolen mandolin? Or are we going to ignore it and just play the mandolin?

I suspect there will be very few phone calls.

j. condino

Aug-19-2012, 8:09pm

SNAGG microchips are pretty common inside expensive instruments of all types these days. Very simple to install in your endpin or you can go through the endpin hole and install them in the neck block, and a lot of people just use a bit of glue and stick them anywhere on the inside of the instrument. I believe a couple of manufacturers install them on many of their high end models and there is a well known mandolin company that uses them on all of their vintage replica models. It is very easy to put a tracking device hidden inside your case.

As a mandolin player, I think about this almost every time I'm out in public with a nice instrument. As an upright bass player, I'm pretty careless and usually get in a few good laughs at the idea of someone trying to outrun me while struggling with my bass over their shoulder.....;)

j.
www.condino.com

Ivan Kelsall

Aug-20-2012, 1:57am

Any form of id.is only worthwhile if the item re-emerges somewhere & ultimately gets picked up by the Police or a person who might be suspicious about it's origin. If somebody steals your mandolin,sells it on & whoever buys it simply plays it in their home,how can you id. it ?. Likewise with our pet animals. If a pet gets lost & picked up by somebody who keeps it,then only if they take it to a Vet who'll scan it,then it's lost even though it might be chipped. 'Chipping' or any other form of personal id. is only useful if the instrument is eventually found. In my previous home,i used to put my Banjo & Guitars in my loft when i went on vacation (most thieves won't have a ladder). In my present home,i have to rely on very secure locking on my doors & windows,
Ivan;)

JeffD

Aug-20-2012, 8:35am

I have engraved dog tags, yes the real thing from the pet shop, engraved with my name and cell phone number, and I have one of them afixed to the case handle of all my instruments.

It does nothing to prevent theft. But it may prevent it being accidently picked up at a festival or if I get careless and set it down at a lunch counter somewhere.

Randi Gormley

Aug-20-2012, 9:20am

I like the idea of something under the truss rod to ID the owner -- that way, if the instrument is legitimately sold, you can remove the ID; I worry about engraving stuff unless you take, say, the engraved tailpiece with you when you sell the instrument. I mean, there are a couple of us who let instruments go; I'd hate for a legitimate buyer to go to sell an instrument and have someone refuse to buy or show up at his house with a police officer because a mark inside didn't match with the ID of the seller. Just a thought. Of course, it doesn't matter if the ID is just used to get a stolen instrument back....

mandroid

Aug-20-2012, 11:41am

Situations like festivals are also places where nefarious people can blend into the crowds..

Though I manage to get some nice instruments, I never seem to have the big travel funds to festivals ,
hotels, rental car, air fare, all that..

I do think there are advantages to wearable cases, with, like, back pack straps,
so there is no set down the case and turn your back on it, ... inattentive moment Opportunities ..

:crying:

Astro

Aug-20-2012, 2:00pm

Pee on it.

Doesn't really make it easier to identify, but makes it less likely to be stolen :disbelief:

mandroid

Aug-20-2012, 5:23pm

Pee on it.
true , that is the way many animals mark territory..

shortymack

Aug-20-2012, 7:01pm

Remind me never to ask to borrow your mando astro.:whistling:

Astro

Aug-20-2012, 7:08pm

:grin:

See, even keeps the borrowers away ;)

azflyman

Sep-23-2012, 1:39am

Here is an easy one, how bout taking a picture? The wood, colors, sunburst, hardware, on any instrument is unique. No thief looking for a buck will change anything. All pawn shops are required to take identification and run all serial numbers to see if something is on the hot list, they all turn up sometime. If you deface an instrument enough to really make it anonymous (remove the headstock name and/or label inside) then it will be worth nothing.

91831

I mean seriously, that IS a fingerprint.

John Adrihan

Sep-23-2012, 7:30am

91834

You could always stick this on the back:grin:

Robert Mitchell

Sep-23-2012, 7:30am

JeffD

Sep-23-2012, 1:43pm

Seeing as my mandolin was made totally by hand, and it's one of only 2 nitro finish Macica A models ever made I'm pretty sure I could identify it by pictures alone.

Your mandolin shows up in a pawn shop. How does anyone know?

Yea you can recognize it, but can you prove its yours.

Police have it, how do they know who to call?

You'd have to completely refinish the whole thing in black, pull the fretboard and change the headstock and F hole shape... ...

Nope, all the criminal would have to do is convince the officer its his. Take a picture of himself playing it for example. Scratch his phone number on the inside of the tailpiece or something.

azflyman

Sep-23-2012, 7:36pm

Your mandolin shows up in a pawn shop. How does anyone know?

Yea you can recognize it, but can you prove its yours.

Police have it, how do they know who to call?

Nope, all the criminal would have to do is convince the officer its his. Take a picture of himself playing it for example. Scratch his phone number on the inside of the tailpiece or something.

How would he explain the paper trail of me purchasing the instrument, or my postings of pictures here in a forum, or my insurance pictures that my agent has, or the police report from its theft? Not that easy dude, and if he tried the best thing for him would to be in custody of the po po, cause if he was not then I could find him.

Besides that, a thief is not going to do that, not all that trouble. He is looking for some quick cash to get his dope.

G. Fisher

Sep-23-2012, 7:57pm

You have to remember that the thieves know all the rules for pawn shops too. I think they may be a lot smarter than we think. Also, the career thieve knows which shops are a little lax on following the rules.

Good luck finding him too. The pawn shop or police will not give you that info.

Pete Jenner

Sep-24-2012, 8:58am

I was thinking of marking my mandolin for safety just like Woody Guthrie marked his guitar, with the words "This Machine Kills Facists".
But I thought better of it.

After all, why warn them? ;)

azflyman

Sep-24-2012, 1:28pm

Good luck finding him too. The pawn shop or police will not give you that info.

Helps having LE in the family, and pawn shops, everything has a price, even information, don't be so naive.

JeffD

Sep-24-2012, 3:57pm

How would he explain the paper trail of me purchasing the instrument, or my postings of pictures here in a forum, or my insurance pictures that my agent has, or the police report from its theft?

Ah, you never said. I thought you were depending on it being hand made and only one of two etc...

DerTiefster

Sep-24-2012, 4:31pm

Some companies provide computer locator services for stolen items. In California, police types used to recommend a driver's license number as an ID marker, but such marks are too tied to a single individual to be useful over the lifetime of an instrument. I could see something like the "tinyurl" idea being useful. Have a central site (would have to be fee supported) where unique codes were registered. Upon purchase of a marked instrument, you re-register the number to yourself but probably for some nominal fee to keep the business operational.

Like auto VINs. MIght be a viable business if a suitably savvy operator ran it and could keep his overhead down. The transferability of the one unique number would mean that number wouldn't be a defacement of the instrument, but a generalized serial number (really -very- like the car VIN).