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Pattroglyph
Jan-05-2005, 8:50am
Help me here, please. We're doing the Bonnies (Kate and Ann) and the Boys ( Bluehill and Lough) and these renditions have triplets in them. It clear my pick direction coming out of the triple changes every time I do the same ones. I can't make up my mind which direction might be right coming out of the triplet. Smooth ...natural is were it needs to go... help.
Let's assume the triplet starts out with a down stroke. OK? Can any of you "pros" slooooow yourself down enough to take a peak to see where you end up on the beat coming out os a triplet and for the record could you help me double check my perception of the definition of triplet before we take off.
Pretty PLEASE! Thank U!

jc2
Jan-05-2005, 9:51am
The more thought I put into it, the more fanatical I become that it should almost always be dud-udu-dud-udu. Sometimes on a longer set of triplets you may have to plan which direction to start with to get you out of them and on to what's next, and if they're very slow you might do a ddu or duu for effect, but if it's like tremolo with a three feel it goes much more smoothly.

jc

muldoon
Jan-05-2005, 2:40pm
Well I'm not a professional but by definition, a triplet is three notes played to 1 beat of the music. My teacher says that they start with a down stroke. So its down up down.

otterly2k
Jan-05-2005, 4:07pm
Not a pro, but agreeing with jc2--- dud udu dud udu is my default... so what this means is that sometimes you come out of the triplet on a down stroke, and sometimes on an up stroke... but to my thinking, this motion is much more fluid than dud dud dud dud, which some people use. It takes some practice to get enough control of both down and up strokes so that it sounds even, and so that you can accent which ever note you want regardless of whether it's a down or up stroke.

keep at it... it will eventually feel natural.

Martin Jonas
Jan-06-2005, 4:42am
It takes some practice to get enough control of both down and up strokes so that it sounds even, and so that you can accent which ever note you want regardless of whether it's a down or up stroke.
I think that really encapsulates the essence of this recurring discussion, and of the equivalent question of pick direction when playing jigs. It really comes down to whether or not your upstrokes and your downstrokes sound the same. If they do, you have to put the accent in by conscious effort anyway and so dud udu, being the more fluent movement, makes more sense. If they don't, then you should go with dud dud and get the right accent "for free" without conscious effort. Note that I'm not saying that either way is superior; it's just a question of adapting your pick direction to your natural single-stroke tone. The reason that this discussion keeps coming up, and never comes to a clear consensus, is that even amongst the professionals both options seem to be more or less equally widely applied.

Martin

mancmando
Jan-06-2005, 5:09am
I find triplets muck easier on jigs because I use the dud dud pattern so playing a triplet might involve dud dudu dud (the triplet being on the second beat) which doesn't put the picking out of kilter.

Reels though are much harder (when the pace picks up) I try and do a downstroke after the triplet which I find difficult but the best of a bad bunch......

jc2
Jan-06-2005, 10:51am
Quote:

Quote (otterly2k @ Jan. 05 2005, 16:07)
It takes some practice to get enough control of both down and up strokes so that it sounds even, and so that you can accent which ever note you want regardless of whether it's a down or up stroke.

I think that really encapsulates the essence of this recurring discussion, and of the equivalent question of pick direction when playing jigs.

And the practice it takes is worth it! You don't not play jigs or triplets because you can't do it, but if you work on that SMOOTH, when it finally happens, you're glad you did, and then all those other patterns are still availabe, but you've got VOCABULARY.

jc

Tom C
Jan-06-2005, 11:17am
Ah, You are a member of DNA (National Dyslexia Association)

danb
Jan-06-2005, 2:15pm
down up-down-up
down down-up-down
up down-up-down
up up-down-up

are all good ones http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

zoukboy
Jan-08-2005, 8:44pm
There is some ambiguity in the terminology for this ornament called a "triplet" in Irish/Celtic music. The Classical definition of a triplet is 3 *even* notes in the space of two but the ornament called "triplet" in Irish music is (usually, see * below) achieved by replacing one 8th note with two 16th notes, invariably followed by another 1/8th note where, in the absence of any ornament, there would only be 2 1/8th notes. These are articulated differently by different people and according to what type of tune they are playing. Fiddlers often call these "trebles." I have also heard them called "cuts" and "diddlys" but I stick with the most common - "triplets."

In jigs and reels I almost always use DUD for the "triplet."

In a jig, this would either be on the downbeat, where you replace the first of the three 8th notes on a given beat with two 16th notes, followed by an 8th note (the third note of the "triplet") and a final eight note. So, you end up with 16th/16th/8th 8th. "dit-dit-dum dum." Or, the triplet could be on the back beat, wherein the second of those three 8ths notes on a given beat is replaced by two 16th notes, for 8th 16th/16th/8th or "dum dit-dit-dum."

In a reel, it's either downbeat or backbeat, with the first of the four 8th notes on a given beat replaced by two 16ths: 16th16th8th 8th 8th or "dit-dit-dum dum dum"

For a backbeat triplet in a reel the third of four 8th notes on a given beat is replaced by two 16th notes: 8th 8th 16th16th8th or "dum dum dit-dit-dum"

Once in a blue moon you'll hear someone put the triplet in the middle, replacing the second of the four 1/8th notes (on a given beat) with two 16ths, for "dum dit-dit-dum dum," but it's rare.

About the only time I use a UDU pattern for a triplet is when I have running triplets, like "dit-dit-dum dit-dit-dum" in the space of four 8th notes - on one beat in a reel, say.

*the exception to the 16th/16th/8th triplet is in hornpipes, where many players do tend to play 3 *even* notes in the space of two.

I have an article on the subject of ornamentation for Irish music on the mandolin in the Feb/March issue of Mel Bay's Mandolin Sessions: http://www.mandolinsessions.com

Roger Landes

MirekPatek
Mar-23-2005, 3:46pm
There is some ambiguity in the terminology for this ornament called a "triplet" in Irish/Celtic music. #The Classical definition of a triplet is 3 *even* notes in the space of two but the ornament called "triplet" in Irish music is (usually, see * below) achieved by replacing one 8th note with two 16th notes, invariably followed by another 1/8th note where, in the absence of any ornament, there would only be 2 1/8th notes.
...
Roger Landes

If you consider the tones as sounds of some length, then the Irish triplet (16th-16th-8th) is out of the classical definition.

But if I think about tones only as points in the time (which I can approximate if the flow of notes is really fast or if my instrument produces notes with big noise at the beginning and quick fade out, as picked string instruments generally do), I am quite in line with the requirement of playing three "points" instead of two. If I play 16th-16th-whateverth, the result is always three quick bursts with regular distance inbetween.

Btw. your article in mandolinsessions dotcom is great - thanks. I work now on executing these staccato ornaments by fingerpicking.

Mirek Patek
http://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo