PDA

View Full Version : Less volume and a tinny sound



Chris "Bucket" Thomas
Jan-04-2005, 10:50am
I had my bridge changed to a Cumberland (from a standard MK Classic bridge) and put on a new set of J75s (from Sam Bush strings).

I am not sure about the results: The volume is less and the tone seems to be more “tinny” with less bass.

I wish I had not made two changes at once!

What do the “outhouse lawyers” say? Which would you think is more the culprit? Also, the J75s seem to be harder on the fingers…

Thanks,

Chris
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

futrconslr
Jan-04-2005, 10:59am
I would play it hard for a week or so. Pound out some doubles and triples like a pissed off Monroe. Sometimes when you change a bridge it takes awhile for everything to get right with the universe. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Philip Halcomb
Jan-04-2005, 11:03am
Chris, the J75's are significantly heavier than the Gibson Bush strings. My guess is that your mandolin needs to have the truss-rod adjusted to be able to handle the load of the J75's. Depending on the condition of the mandolin it may need a complete setup. The strings are harder on your fingers because I can only imagine that your neck now has a serious bow to it. So you could probably go back to the Bush strings and all would be well again, or you could take your mandolin into the shop and have the truss rod adjusted and be good that way too. Although, if you do that if you decide you like the Bush's better you will have to return to the shop to reverse that process because then you'll probably have a back-bow on the neck. Also, if the slots are too deep/wide or tight in the new bridge that can affect the tone and volume of your instrument too. Ideally you want a little more than half the diameter of the string embedded into the bridge. So when you run your finger nail across the top of the bridge you will feel it catch on the strings. Hope that helps... Good luck!

Flowerpot
Jan-04-2005, 11:45am
I'd go back and make one change at a time. Or else you will never know what makes it better, or worse.

Taking all the string pressure off (in order to fit a new bridge) is a big shock to the mandolin. It can take a couple of days to a week to re-settle, so what ever you try, give it a week of hard playing before making any judgements. Changing strings gives you pretty much immediate feedback if you change them one at a time. Some mandolins get "choked up" with the heavier strings and don't respond well, and others really boom.

250sc
Jan-04-2005, 11:45am
The truss rod wouldn't change volume and tone but changing strings and bridge can. I have owned mandos that would 'go to sleep' after removing all the strings at once. After playing it hard for a week or so it would wake up again.

On my current mando (Collings) I switched from J74s to J75 and the mando sounded a lot stiffer but after playing it for a couple of weeks it started to break in again.

Make sure your new bridge is fitted properly to the top (no spaces) and play it for a couple of weeks before decideing if your experiment worked the way you wanted it to.

Good luck.

peterbc
Jan-04-2005, 11:47am
I use J75's and have found it can take a few days for the tinniness to go away. They are heavier guage, I doubt it's putting in some serious bow that quickly, I put them on a mandolin with no trussrod and a thin neck and it took a while for bow to develop (don't worry, it's reinforced now). So my guess is your fingers aren't quite used to the extra tension of the strings, and that you need to beat them in.

Lee
Jan-04-2005, 12:06pm
Here's a good test to determine if your bidge is fitted properly to the top of the mandolin. With a pair of scissors cut a small piece of paper from one of your J75's string envelopes, about 1/8 inch wide. Then go all all around the base of the bridge and see if there's anywhere you can slip it underneath the foot of the bridge.

Philip Halcomb
Jan-05-2005, 6:36pm
Well I don't know where you're all coming from but I use J74s which are heavier than the Bush strings and everytime I've put the J75s my action had risen significantly. That to me means that the neck is being pull forward. An immediate difference. Therefore warranting a truss-rod adjustment to straighten the neck out. Chris there is no problem taking all the strings off the instrument and putting them all back on. You can see that statement clearly on Frank Ford's website www.frets.com . Any differences in your neck bow should be settled within a couple hours, not days or weeks. Certainly after 12 hours. Seriously take it to a shop, they should only charge you maybe 20 bucks at the most to adjust it so you can play that thing with enjoyment once again. Just some technical data here, the J75s put 194lbs of tension on the instrument. The Bush's (using a string tension formula because Gibson doesn't specify that on the back of the box) have 175lbs of tension. Now, that's being generous because the formula I have only covers Phosphor Bronze strings. Monels (Stainless Steel Wound) like the Bush's generally put on even LESS tension then the phosphor bronze strings. So you could probably safely estimated subtracting another 7 pounds from that. Now we're down to 168lbs or tension. 194lbs - 168lbs = 26lbs. That's almost 30lbs of tension. Believe it or not that's a lot. A couple years ago when I was learning how to setup mandolins, my mentor told me, a little change can make a BIG difference.

Chris Baird
Jan-05-2005, 7:14pm
Of all the mandolins I've strung up with a new bridge and new strings they ALL sounded bad for awhile. I would bet that in a few days your mandolin will be sounding good again. It just takes awhile for the bridge to make the tops' aquaintence.

Philip Halcomb
Jan-05-2005, 7:31pm
That's true the bridge does need to break in a little bit. Although just from the description (although seeing it would definitely help in making a firmly educated opinion) I still stand by the opinion that the playability issues are because of the string tension on that stick.

250sc
Jan-06-2005, 8:41am
Quote: "Well I don't know where you're all coming from but I use J74s which are heavier than the Bush strings and everytime I've put the J75s my action had risen significantly. That to me means that the neck is being pull forward. An immediate difference. Therefore warranting a truss-rod adjustment to straighten the neck out."

Hi flip,

The truss rod will definately affect the playability but the original question didn't mention playability, only volume and tone. Adjustment of the truss rod won't have much, if any, affect on tone and volume.

Just a clearification.

mandoJeremy
Jan-06-2005, 10:52am
I agree with Chris on this. Every time I have ever taken the bridge off of a mandolin and then put it back on it sounded terrible. It usually takes a couple of days for it to be right again. I think the top is used to that pressure and when you take it off and replace it the top has all of the pressure removed and then suddenly replaced. It just has to get used to it again. Also, when you are used to the sound that the Bush strings have it is a major difference to switch to a phosphor bronze string. The Bush strings, when they are brand new, sound like a set of PB's that you have already broken in. My advice....go back to the Bush strings because Steve Smith at Cumberland makes one of the best bridges available.

Philip Halcomb
Jan-06-2005, 11:37am
The truss rod will definately affect the playability but the original question didn't mention playability, only volume and tone.

Just a clearification.
I believe the man said that the action felt stiff (harder on his fingers). That could very well be that he's not used to that heavy of a string tension. However, a straighter neck with less relief will make it play a hell of a lot easier regardless of the string guage...

Chris Baird
Jan-06-2005, 12:30pm
A possibility when changing to heavier gauged strings is that the strings will not go all the way down into the nut slots hence a higher action at the nut. A high action at the nut can really wear your fingertips out.

250sc
Jan-06-2005, 1:16pm
flip,
Point taken.

Chris,
Yes, high action at the nut is tough on your hands and your intonation.

I think the bottom line for this thread is, after removing all of the tension from your mando (by removeing all strings and/or bridge) you should play the instrument for a while before making any conclusions about how your sound has been affected.

Potosimando
Jan-08-2005, 5:19pm
If you're using a thinner pick, then the old pick might not be well suited to the new heavier strings (given your particular picking technique/s and style). Regardless, give the J75's several days for the instrument to adjust--sure glad I did.

Dfyngravity
Jan-09-2005, 6:40pm
im with everyone else on this one. i think you just need to play it hard for a couple days, maybe a week depending on how long you play at one time. if you think about it, you pluck a string that sends a vibration down through the bridge and into and through the top. and after playing a mandolin for a while, it gets use to that. then you are suddenly taking off the bridge, relieving pressure and then putting on a totally different bridge with a different string tension. im not and expert but it would make you think that it would take a little bit of time for your mandolin to adjust to the new set-up. however, i may be wrong, but thats just my take on it. in any case, i say playing for a bit and if you see no improvement in a week i would take it in and just get someone to take a look at it. it my just need some fine tuning.

Zed
Jan-09-2005, 10:29pm
1. It's very, very common after removing all the strings and/or a bridge for the mando to "go to sleep" for a while. Can't explain it but it happens. It does take sometimes a day or so for that flat, tinny sound to turn back into the tone you know. J75s also sound terrible to me for about a week. Then they even out and sound great.

2. As someone else already mentioned, make sure the bridge is tightly seated against the top. NO gaps. This can make a huge difference. Did you have someone (a luthier) fit the bridge for you?

3. Action is raised and lowered with the nut and the bridge NOT the truss rod. The truss rod adjusts neck RELIEF which is different from the action. Neck relief may indeed need to be adjusted after going to higher tension strings, but not necessarliy. Higher tension strings may change the neck angle which has nothing to do with relief, or truss rod adjustment.

Philip Halcomb
Jan-11-2005, 12:30pm
All I have to say is that I've seen it a million times with the strings in question. Especially with the korean mandos. Also, the Korean mandos usually ship with very light strings and the nut and bridge slots are generally really thin and the strings as said before probably won't fit in all the way without some reworking. It's a general understanding that the neck RELIEF is varied upon the load that you put on that stick. There are a million methods, but when I look at ACTION I look at 4 things. Nut action, bridge action, relief, and neck angle. Yes it's true that relief is not action. I don't believe anyone said that, however it is true that with TOO MUCH relief the strings are gonna seem raised off that board. Try playing a mando with J75s and a loose truss rod and a morphed neck angle. Wouldn't be much fun. And when you fret the 5th, 6th, and seventh fret and you hear the clank of string around the 12th fret that will sound real good I'm sure. Anyway, I'm gonna stop now I'm starting to feel like a right-wing fanatic trying to defend ivading a bridge problem fit with an extremely different string guage which has probably caused too much relief. And yes I too am a rascal. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

reindoggy
Jan-11-2005, 12:52pm
I'm no expert, nor am I afraid to show my ignorance. Is it possible that the new bridge isn't placed in the exact same place on the body as the old one? It seems to affect my mando's tone if the bridge is slid toward or away from the fingerboard. Could anyone tell me how to pick the best placement for my bridge? Can a placement based on tuning at the twelfth fret compromise the tone with different gauge strings?

Kevin K
Jan-11-2005, 1:07pm
Chris,

How's the mandolin now?

Kevin

Chris "Bucket" Thomas
Jan-12-2005, 6:55am
Hey guys-thanks for all of the info. That is what makes this site great!

1. The sound improved after a couple of days of playing the heck out of it. It must be magic or something; PFM.

2. I determined that I like SB strings and BM strings more than the J75s.

3. The bridge does need to be better fitted. There is a really small gap under a portion of the bridge that still needs correcting.

4. I learned a lot in the process; adjusting the intonation etc.

Thanks,

Chris