Women in a Mans World of Bluegrass

[sarai]

One of the challenges I have in my love of bluegrass is that my husband really dislikes the genre. I want to find opportunities and time to jam but it's difficult when many events are heavily male dominated. (Wife wants to go hang out with a bunch of other men!?... doesn't go over well always).

Any other ladies experience this challenge? I've recently been trying to connect with more ladies by facebook who are in my area because I was thinking of doing a ladies jam sometime.

Just curious if anyone else has had the same struggle?

[JeffD]

In a more general sense this challenge presents itself whenever one or the other partner becomes passionately interested in music.

I think it has to do with the partners worry that you are self sufficient with the music and the partner can feel nolonger needed, unable to compete with that absorbing passion. That combined with watching the spouse in constant interaction with others who share the passion that the partner can't share, or perhaps even understand.

This is far from unique to bluegrass, I see it all the time in all kinds of music. Its also not a male - female thing, because I see it both ways all the time. There are lots of women whose see their husband playing fiddle in a contra dance band, and he is playing for and dancing with all these other women, and ...

If you can get your husband into the music somehow, or into some aspect of the musical life. Is he a musician, just not bluegrass? or is there some other way he can get into it, (camping, RVing to festivals, recording you and the band, luthiery, or ultimatley, taking up an instrument...) that would be best. Somehow make him a more integral part of your musical journey. Best to give him his own domain. The care and feeding of the RV, tent, camp chairs, lanterns, cook stove, etc. Something essential, where he can feel he is indispensible.

Its the way music is a strong passion, and also its because music is such a social thing. If you took up quilting (sexist example I know), your husband would probably have less problem, even if you dedicted significant time and money to it, because its not as social and there are hardly any men. Symmetrically, if he took up fly fishing that would provide perhaps some scheduling conflicts, but no real threat, while if he took up ball room dancing it would be much harder to stomach.

My experience, both personal and with lots and lots (and lots) of friends and acquaintences, is that this is something you really need to pay attention to. It can and often does work out just fine, but not without serious effort.

[f5loar]

I have found women in jams in our area to be quite common. sometimes too many! Some really great pickers and some not so good. If you can cut it most men will let you in their club!

[greg_tsam]

Most men will give you a fair shake and even more just because you are a woman in a male dominated environment. Most bluegrass circle I've seen are 75%-100% male on any given night and I've always seen respect and graciousness shown to the ladies that themselves were polite and displayed a common courtesy. I can stand a woman that uses the opportunity to feed her ego and flirt with all the guys instead of play music though. Unless she flirting with me. :whistling:

Seriously, any circle I've ever been to in mixed company was always polite whether you can play or just beginning.

Sounds like just common jealousy and that is for a different forum altogether. Maybe if your husband can come to a few circles he'll it's about the music and either find himself something else to do or participate or sit in the back with a laptop and entertain himself. That's what most of the women do.

[Charlieshafer]

Not that I'm a woman in southern Michigan, but the Ann Arbor area is a hotbed of acoustic music. Very few parts of the country compare to what's there, but it's not all bluegrass, a lot of it will be mixed with old-time, basic folk, Irish, Scots, etc. The roster of who's who from that area, including the outskirts, like Saline, is pretty huge. I don't know where to post, exactly, but you can see if the Ark has some sort of jam list or something like that. You're far from alone in that area.

[allenhopkins]

I've found Celtic seisuns, old-time jams, and sing-arounds to be very gender-mixed in our area; bluegrass jams, somewhat less so. No problem with women who show up being "accepted" by the men of the jam, but the ratio is very male-heavy, and I can see where a spouse or partner might notice that and have his anxiety level go up.

Some partners/spouses are willing to "tag along" and listen, sit and read, work their laptops etc., but honestly, I've seen a dozen women willing to do this, for every man who will. I go to dozens of informal musical get-togethers, and my wife of 43 years attends approximately 0.0% of them. That's just the way things have worked out, and when it became clear that I wasn't going to stop attending, and she was always welcome but had to work out her own "niche," she just decided she'd rather stay home at her computer or with a book.

Yeah, it's "about the music" and not a "mixer," but I've seen enough couples form at musical events, to know that the potential exists. We all have to work out our own accommodations, and model our behavior around our own principles (or lack thereof). No simple answer, and I fear creating a single-sex "women only" jam is not going to solve the underlying question.

[JEStanek]

Issues of honesty and trust are core to a succesful marriage, IMO. A frank and honest conversation about why you want to attend and what you really get out of it should help dispell concerns, if your partner is being reasonable. I'm writing this gender neutral as this can happen from both ways, not just a woman attending a jam full of mostly men. Is the concern is about infidelity or about time invested with others?

Speaking only for myself, both my wife and I have hobbies that don't involve the other. I have to trust that she's out doing her hobby and not other things. When I feel possesive and jealous, I have to remind myself that the fear is ego insecurity and doesn't reflect the reality of what's going on. A simple conversation quickly gets my head back straight.

Typically, I have experienced the women at a jam setting to be more welcoming than the men (who aren't anatagonistic just more intent on doing their own thing). Perhaps this comes from roles of competition and nurturing/inclusion that differ based on social norms... whatever... It was what it was.

Perhaps if you gave your husband clear expectations of when you will be back and call if you're going to be late, some of his concerns might be assuaged?

Jamie

[Beanzy]

I'm a bit in the reverse conundrum with music generally. My wife & I cross over on classical but we're poles apart in everything else.
It's tough to justify going away camping at a festival without her and the son.

There's another real issue here too though. It's not just about giving your partner space. Our selves are defined by our memories, and our shared life together is defined by the shared experiences giving shared memories too. It's a highwire act to strike the balance between doing what you love and making space for those we love.

Unfortunately I've no answers to offer either.

[John Flynn]

I've been married 34 years and my wife has attended a few of my jams and performances, but doesn't really care for it. I used to jam weekly with a big old-time group and also was in a band that used to perform for contra dances. Both situations had a lot of women in them, of all ages and situations, so my spouse could have chosen to feel the same way your husband does if she were inclined to. Fortunately for us, we've never had jealousy as an issue in the marriage.

So first and foremost, I agree with others that this is a marital communications and trust issue that should not be discussed here, but should definitely be discussed and resolved between you. A more immediate and easier solution, however, might be to find another female to go with you to the jam, either as a listener or participant. I think that might be easier for your husband to accept while you are getting the first issue worked out.

[J.Albert]

"One of the challenges I have in my love of bluegrass is that my husband really dislikes the genre."

He doesn't like bluegrass?
What'd you marry him fer?

(jes' teasin'....)

[JeffD]

A more immediate and easier solution, however, might be to find another female to go with you to the jam, either as a listener or participant. I think that might be easier for your husband to accept while you are getting the first issue worked out.

Or, find a female to leave home with him so you will feel just as wierd about the whole thing.

Er... never mind.

[Grommet]

Sarai-
Bottom line is..you need to be there for your own growth as a musician. He may well need to be there also to accept/support your committment and perhaps to keep an eye on the rest of us.

Scott

[JEStanek]

If you can't go to a jam without being hit on (repeatedly), or need someone watching over the other participants, that is likely not the right jam to attend in the first place.

Jamie

[Mandolin Mick]

You know, I've never said this before ... I gave up Bluegrass when I was in my `20's because my wife hated it. I sold my mandolin at a yard sale! One of the stupidest things I've ever done!

When I was in my `40's I picked it up again and she doesn't mind it at all and shows me ads for Bluegrass jams & festivals! She still doesn't like "the high lonesome sound" of the singing but she's come to like the instrumentals and in particular my mandolin playing! :mandosmiley:

[Turnip Mountain Picker]

My wife hates for me to go to jams and festivals because of all the women that are there!

[greg_tsam]

Have any "real" women replied to this thread yet?

[JeffD]

I can't overstate how common it is. If you see a musical couple, married, where both of them play, or even better play together, in any of the participatory musical genres I can think of - its dollars to donuts one or both of their's second marriage, and the first one was with someone outside the music.

I just learned that the fiddler in a contra dance band I sit in with from time to time is about to resign the band because his wife doesn't like him playing music with and for women. And they met contra dancing, 10+ years ago!

I see this kind of thing happening all the time, with various outcomes, and in both M-F and F-M directions. I have no answer except to say don't narrow the problem down too far. Its not bluegrass, or men, or women, its bigger than that. And its best not to ignore it.

[Mo Soar]

The jams in my area are small, but there are always a couple women. I don't think it's coincidence that none of the women are what I would call shy or retiring - they are all quite capable of leading, picking the songs and standing their ground in a disagreement.

Have worked as an engineer and a geologist, and had hobbies of racing cars and racing sailboats, what I've found over the years is that, as a woman in a man's world, getting respect requires demanding it - being quiet and shy works for a very competent man and not so much for women, regardless of competency or even brillance.

I think there are some groups out there who are happy to never change members, never get new people in. Those groups are going to be tough to crack and probably not worth the effort. Life is too short for that, find a group that is fun and that seems welcoming, and get in the middle of it. A group that is used to getting new people in isn't likely to mind that. I bring food, too, little offerings help....

As far as the couple dynamic - for me that got sorted out early on business trips where I'd be in the only woman in the group, staying in a hotel with a bunch of guys. Of course it also worked in reverse years later where most of the people on my husband's engineering team were women and a decade or two younger than he was: "What's that? You're going to Italy in the spring with 3 young women? Huh. Bring me back a good bottle of wine."

[JeffD]

"What's that? You're going to Italy in the spring with 3 young women? Huh. Bring me back a good bottle of wine."

Well done. :)

[Mo Soar]

I do have a great husband - as an example, he's not at all fond of bluegrass music, but he will go to jams with me, because his ear is good enough to pick out key and chords and chord progressions even if he doesn't know the instruments (well, except for fiddle). So he plays rhythm guitar along with the songs, using guitar chords he knows I can recognize to help cue me.

Great love hath no man, lol, than to suffer through a form of music he doesn't like to help his wife out.

ETA: and the jam session is generally glad to have a very strong rhythm guitarist in the mix who isn't interested in grabbing leads.

[Jim Ferguson]

This has been a fun thread to read........why do I feel the need for prozac, a box of Kleenex, & a marriage counselor....;-)
My 2 cents worth........I have never even given this theme a 2nd thought.......my wife plays guitar & me the mando.......we play bluegrass & folk & so we have a shared interest.......I am very fortunate.......when up in Nome, Alaska where I was heavy into the folk/bluegrass/old time music scene there were lots of guys & gals & not a comment was ever made about the gender mix........we were all simply having too much fun playing music...:-)
Peace,

[AYoder]

I'm a gal...and I play mandolin (of course, I guess)...and I live in Northern Indiana! I'm probably not as old as you, though, so I can't help you with your issue with your husband. Sorry. :) I know what ya mean though. This weird thing is...WHY do men play mandolins?? This I've never got. Not to pick on or offend, but it's not a very manly instrument, if you ask me. I've never gone to a "jam" before, but I know we have a bluegrass festival and tons of bluegrass players around here. Even if there was a jam I knew of, I'm not sure I'd actually go to it........
Sorry I'm not much of help, but I'm there with ya, kinda...:)

[Mike Bunting]

:)) Stereotypes!! This oughta be good.

[greg_tsam]

I'm a gal...and I play mandolin (of course, I guess)...Not to pick on or offend, but it's not a very manly instrument, if you ask me. I've never gone to a "jam" before, but I know we have a bluegrass festival and tons of bluegrass players around here. Even if there was a jam I knew of, I'm not sure I'd actually go to it........
Sorry I'm not much of help, but I'm there with ya, kinda...:)

You don't sound too certain and I'm not sure you're old enough to determine what manly is but what is your definition of a man and "manly"?

[Miked]

Hey sarai - There's a nice jam in Adrian that meets the last Saturday of the month, starting September. It's at the First Presbyterian Church and there's actually a decent number of women that go. A good variety of bluegrass, old-time, country and then there's also a dulcimer club. There's lot's of room for people to sit and listen; your husband might actually enjoy it!

[sarai]

This has been a fun thread to read........why do I feel the need for prozac, a box of Kleenex, & a marriage counselor....;-) Agreed


Hey sarai - There's a nice jam in Adrian that meets the last Saturday of the month, starting September
I might have to check this one out

[JeffD]

The directions this thread is taking compels me to reiterate my point. The side streets are interesting and entertaining, but ultimately unhelpful. So, in an attempt to be helpful, I will restate. Then I will shut up.

The problem described, in reality, has nothing to do with sexism in music, women in a man's world, the gender make up of bluegrass, or finding lady banjo players to jam with.

It has everything to do with one person in a marriage being passionate about an activity that the spouse is not into, and that this activity, by its nature, is social, and provides opportunity for the passionate partner to be exposed to others of the opposite sex who share the passion.

Thats it. Addressing that issue directly is the only useful pathway, however entertaining it may be to consider an all female bluegrass band.

[Mandolin Mick]

Thank you! If you go back to my post you'll see that I tried to address this like you have, but to no avail! ;)

[mandolino maximus]

Depends entirely on the individuals and a couple's willingness to work their way through most things one step at a time.

If you're a sweet thing, the probability of old ##### making asses out of themselves goes up. That can be annoying. But who knows, keep showing up and a couple of other people with better attitudes of both sexes are likely to come along.

But don't worry excessively. Most bluegrassers meet at churches and Sleep With One Eye Open. And they all know that mixing bluegrass with romance is deadly.

[AYoder]

I'd like to restate my post. It seems to have been taken in the wrong directions, and seeing my faults, it seems a bit offensive. This was never meant to be of offense. What my words were meant to sound like was something like this: I've never fully figured out why more gals don't play mandolins. It's really actually a better instrument for smaller hands. That's why I ask this question...why is it that so many guys play mandolins, and not ladies? It seems that it would almost be difficult for a guy to play. In fact, I even have a hard time at it occasionally. I have absolutely no problem with guys playing mandolins, everybody has an equal chance, though.
And to sarai...have you ever tried a "gospel" bluegrass group? I believe we have several of those around here in N. Indiana. I would suggest it, seeming it would be in a better environment. :)

[JeffD]

I think it has nothing to do with the men in bluegrass, and very little to do with how the OP carries herself in public with BGers, and everything to do with getting her husband meaningfully involved as an enthusiastic participant. (not necessarily musician but something he enjoys).

This will have several effects:

Time spent in bluegrass will not be time away from home, but will be together time away from the house.
Others will see that he is not staying home brooding and so there is no "opportunity, even in theory".
The OP will feel supported at both ends by her husband who is having fun and by the bluegrass community.

[Marcelyn]

Jeff's pretty much nailed it, but to reiterate, at the festivals I went to this summer there were quite a few women on stage and off., so I don't see BG as being a "man's world." And to Ayoder, the women were playing everything from fiddles to basses so picking an instrument based on size or stereotype doesn't need to be an issue.
From someone who gave her fiance his first banjo and ukulele, I can tell you having a shared hobby has been incredibly fun. If there's any way to lure him in, I'd focus on that. There's no better time than now while you're just learning too. With an eye for the long term gain, it may be best to make as many compromises about the jams now. That way, you'll show him the relationship is the priority and he won't get a bad taste for BG right off.