pizza tapes

[erick]

I'm a big Grisman fan and own much of the Acoustic Disc catalog. When I got the Pizza Tapes CD for Xmas I was psyched- Garcia, Grisman, and Rice - what's not to like? Well, as it turns out, mostly Tony Rice. He's flat out of time on several cuts, early here, late there , what's up with that? I know the guy's got a groove; the DGQ stuff with him is superb. On this disc, when he isn't playing off-rhythm, he's often playing speed-freak riffs that don't fit the material. No wonder Grisman held off releasing this for a few years; I think he was being considerate of his friend and ex-bandmate.

[Steven Stone]

IMHO Rice's playing is much better than Jerry G's.

I'm just not that fond of string-stretching on acoustic guitars.

But I think they were all having a good time playing together and appreciate their willingness to share their good times with us. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[AlanN]

My fave part of that is when Grisman flubs the intro to Long Black Veil a few times. Rice's quip is perfect http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[strungover]

If it pains you so much to listen (Eric), perhaps you should consider trading in your copy to the local record store. Grisman never intended to release the tapes, that's why he hesitated. All three players make plenty of mistakes, but the playing is still exciting. The recording session leaked out #to the public in the mid nineties and was traded mainly within Grateful Dead circles. The quality and mix were pretty poor, but people loved it anyway and the recording became widespread across the globe. It bothered Grisman that such a poor quality recording was in such great circulation, so he cleaned it up and released it on Acoustic Disc. The sound is much better. The earlier (bootleg) release was my first introduction to Grisman's playing and single handedly turned me on to playing the mandolin. I still get the chills when listening to TR's summertime solo.

[mpeknox]

The pickin' is great but my favorite thing about the Pizza Tapes is that they make me feel better about my own singing
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

To a lot of people's thinking, the fact that Tony could *ever* make a mistake is noteworthy. The fact that we get to hear him flub a few here and there while we play 'fly on the wall' is a fantastic opportunity.

It wasn't The Pizza Tapes, but a similiar bootleg of a favorite act helped inprire me early on in music. It was reassuring to hear guys whom I thought were 'perfect' actually hash out parts on the fly and make mistakes, forget parts, loose the groove, etc.

Pick off any toppings you don't like and have another slice. It's just The Pizza Tapes.

- Benig

[SternART]

Summertime...........yeaaahhhhh!!!!

[Joe Singleton]

I think it can't be overlooked that Gerry was dying when these tapes were made. I don't know what the other fellas might have been up to that could have taken away from their concentration, but that could have had an impact.

[Moose]

"When lions fall.., asses bray"(source: forgotten) hee.. hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Moose]

"Who hit THAT clam!??###.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Scotti Adams]

Yup...Tony sure isnt lookin too good....

[mandoJeremy]

I would say that there are definitely some "substances" being used when the Pizza Tapes were recorded!

[AlanN]

And we ain't talking garlic powder!

[mandoJeremy]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

"When lions fall.., asses bray"(source: forgotten) hee.. hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Priceless.

To err is human. Some other kinds of behaviour are perhaps a little less than human.

Mark

[Dru Lee Parsec]

my favorite thing about the Pizza Tapes is that they make me feel better about my own singing

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

No kidding. Every time I hear Jerry sing I'm reminded of the old joke:

Q: "What does a dead head say when the drugs wear off?"
A: "Dude! This Music Sucks!"

[Lee]

Jerry's death was sudden and un-predicted. In a sense, we're all dying. So pick it hard.

[JD Cowles]

heck yeah lee957! plus you can't beat jerry giggling and fawning over tony like a schoolgirl.

remember, whatever you record may be found one day...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[AlanN]

Jerry's death sudden and un-predicted? The way he was living, it was going to happen sooner rather than later.

[J. Mark Lane]

Hm. I'm not so sure Jerry's death was all that "unpredicted." He had been very sick and had cancelled tours, was known to be seriously addicted to heroin, and was in very bad shape. He had been in and out of rehab. Plus, he was diabetic. I seem to recall thinking for years that he was not going to live much longer.

I was a "Dead Head" in 1971. I followed the band for many years, and saw them quite a few times. It always sort of bothers me to hear people say they weren't good, or couldn't sing, or whatever. (It's like saying Dylan can't sing...um, hello?) They made great music, and a lot of people really enjoyed it. Personally, I think they rose to a level of creativity that is rarely achieved, and some of their live performances were amazing -- tight, complex, uplifting, original, powerful. They blended so many forms of American music, more than anyone else, and created practically a new genre. Sound familiar?

Jerry was always the "bad apple." I saw him walk off stage a couple of times. I saw him so messed up he forgot what he was doing in the middle of a song onstage. It always upset me to think of such a creative artist treating his body and health so poorly. Some say his music depended on his lifestyle, and perhaps there is an element of truth in that. But he pushed it too far. And I think he always knew he was doing that. In a way, it was one long suicide.

In order to "understand" the Dead (and Jerry), I think you had to sort of "be there" in the heyday. The Dead existed in a cultural context, and like much of the music from that time, you can hear it, and you may even like it, but you just can't "get it" unless you can put your head in the place where it was being made. I find it extremely difficult to "go there" now, even though I was very much "there" at the time. I don't think it's even possible for people who weren't actually there.

I think Jerry wanted more than anything else to be accepted in the world of bluegrass music. His association with Grisman was probably one of the few real joys he had toward the latter part of his life. To me, it's really quite sad. I actually can't stand watching the "Grateful Dawg" video, because I can see how messed up he is, and it kinda hurts to see it.

As for Tony -- he deserves a little more respect than some folks are showing him... imho.

I sort of wish the "pizza tapes" had never existed. It's really not fair...

Rant off.

Mark

[SternART]

It was probably tough being labeled as the spokesperson for a generation...Captain Trips....or to have rabid fans following you around, so you couldn't do something normal like go to a movie or to a grocery store. Jerry just wanted to play music & I think the fame stuff was too much & he sought an escape. IMO there is drug use & drug abuse & he definitely did the latter. But the boy could really play & was an incredible improviser, with a huge imagination......the Dead made some incredible music in their mid career years.......with a great show every once in awhile at any time during their career. On a good night, like Mark says, it was "tight, complex, uplifting, original, powerful" I learned a lot about music from being a Deadhead & following Jerry led me in the direction of OAITW, and Dawg music. I am forever grateful.

And Tony Rice set the bar for acoustic guitar players to follow.....guys like Grier & Sutton are standing on his shoulders, just like Tony was inspird by Doc & Clarence's playing. I've experienced Tony up close & personal as much as anyone, when he lived in the Bay Area......he is an incredible musician. His tone, volume, timing, solos, rhythm playing are such that you can tell it is him playing within a few bars.....but hey, we are all human.......maybe it was the middle of the night & they were tired, or had a few too many of whatever......the Pizza tapes are the only time those fellas ever played together and I'm glad the music is out there for us to hear, warts & all.

I remember being with Tony when he was recording one of his albums at Fantasy Studios in Berkeley.....turns out Jerry was recording one of his solo efforts in the studio down the hall..they had never met....they ran into each other and Tony thought it was very cool that Jerry actually knew who he was & all about his path in music. This was a few years before Jerry & Grisman started playing together again..... Garcia was a real student of roots music, it is very cool that Grisman got these guys together. Too bad there wasn't more.......

[ira]

hey folks, accept this stuff for what it is.... a bunch of extraordinary talents (sorry dru lee- garcia was one of the most eclectic and creative musicians of all time, and though his voice was not classically perfect- man did he put feeling into his singing as so many greats do), who were hanging out, probably indulging a bit, and playing some good tunes . in other words... kicking back and having fun. it isn't super professional and wasn't meant to be as it wasn't for publication or played live for an audience. it was just taped for fun.

enjoy their pure enjoyment of playing together....
just my 2,
peace,
ira

[fangsdaddy]

imho it's a great recording, warts & all. i'd always rather hear a musician take a chance & fail, rather than hear them play "by the numbers" & never hit a clam.

[ira]

amen!

[luckylarue]

I think Jerry wanted more than anything else to be accepted in the world of bluegrass music. #His association with Grisman was probably one of the few real joys he had toward the latter part of his life

How does anyone of us know what Garcia was feeling? #The guy had his addictions like many great artists but he could still play and sing - even towards the end. #I think that the Dead's music is timeless - like B.B.King or Bach. #It can be at once, old and traditional, yet modern or futuristic all at the same time. #I've been rediscovering tunes on the mando and it's great stuff. #Sure, he had bad nights but also think how many shows he played between the Dead, JGB, Garcia/Grisman and countless others. #They all couldn't be amazing.
# #I love the last Garcia/Grisman, "Been All Around this World". #I think there's some great vocals - the Jimmy Martin tune is awesome. #I think it's too easy to discount Jerrry's vocals and playing, especially late in his career. #Sure he had a lot of pressures on him, but he obviously loved to play or else he wouldn't have continued doing it. #Remember, Jerry began his career in bluegrass - I get incredibly stoked to play when I watch "Grateful Dawg" - maybe it's me but Garcia doesn't seem that out of it in the film. #On the contrary, he's pretty amazing at times. #I love Grisman's solo stuff but I find myself preferring his playing w/ Garcia the more I listen to it.
Maybe it's just the great choice of songs they do.

Anyways, everybody's a critic!

I think that's a bunch of #### to say " You had to be there, man, in '71 to really understand the Dead and Jerry"
I mean, come on! Ooops! Maybe you just got me because you had to be joking. I'm a sucker, I admit it!

[Brian Ray]

troll...

[cutbait2]

an entertaining effort that demonstrates the talent of these guys however if you're riding down the road with the kids and pop the disc in be prepared for the occassional use of the "F" word. i guess it was left in for authenticity, continuity, but it kind of spoils the thing for me

[Lee]

After reading the link below I don't think one can maintain that Jerry yearned to be accepted in the world of Bluegrass music. Probably a better description would've been, "been there, done that". Jerry would never have relegated himself to just one type or genre of music. The fact is the Grateful Dead took on a life of its own that was out of Jerry's control and which became his best known "long strange trip".
http://eyecandypromo.com/SR/jgbanjo.html

[J. Mark Lane]

Well, that's a nice article, Lee. I enjoyed reading it just now. But I don't see anything in it that causes me to question my statement that Jerry longed to be accepted in the world of bluegrass. I think people who know Jerry have known that for years. In fact, Jerry himself said it on occasion, as I recall. If you were under the impression that I was unaware of Jerry's past involvement in bluegrass music, then you were very much mistaken.

As for some other comments that have been made here, I am not surprised that people get their backs up at some of the things I have to say about Garcia and the Dead. That doesn't change a thing. I wonder, though, at the narrowness of some people's minds. I love beat poetry, for example. But I was not there in the wee hours when Ginsberg or Burroughs read strange semi-prose to a backdrop of jazz music under a single dangling light bulb in an East Village basement. I do not remember when Ferlinghetti first released "Coney Island of the Mind," because I was only one year old at the time. And I accept that there is something about the beat movement that must necessarily be beyond my grasp. I am content to admire it from where I sit today, and I would always welcome (indeed, thrill at) the prospect of speaking to someone who was "there" at the time..... So, I sometimes fail to understand people who can't do the same with some other artistic movement.

Whatever.

Mark

[Andrew Reckhart]

This thread reminds me of a scene from 'Good Will Hunting'. Remember when they are in the Harvard bar and Matt Damon "talks" to Scott Winters. That's what this feels like to me.

[luckylarue]

It sounds a bit elitist to assume that because a person wasn't "there" at the time, or a part of the "scene" that the poetry or music has no relevancy to their life or experience. I think it's rather close-minded for someone to assume their view or experience is universal. Maybe some 14 yr old kid today gets more enjoyment and meaning from listening to the Dead today than some old Deadhead (no offense, anyone!) who was "there" in '69. I don't think this stuff is frozen in time. "The Wheel keeps turning...."

[AlanN]

Yeah, man. To bring it maybe closer to home, is a kid who is just hearing Monroe for the first time any less justified for learning from/being influenced by him than say a person who saw the BG Boys dozens of times? I think not.

[J. Mark Lane]

You guys are entirely missing the point. If you think the Dead was just their music, then that just proves my point. And if you think you are able to comprehend what "enjoyment" some "old Deadhead" got (or gets) from the Grateful Dead experience, then you are just being naive.

And I didn't say that the music "has no relevancy" to anyone. It can be relevant, certainly. I said, and I will repeat it one last time, that you cannot fully grasp what was going on at the time the music was created unless you were, at least to some extent, there. Yes, the music continues. Sort of. At least it still exists, in its memorialized format. And it can, will and should influence people. But that's a different point.

And by the way, I have always believed that a large percentage of bluegrass fans don't have a clue what bluegrass is about, either. Reading some parts of Rosenberg's book, where he talks about festivals in the 1960's, certainly reminds one of how that came to be.

FWIW, I mean nothing personal by these comments. They are my own views, based on my own experiences. And I'm sure that if we were sitting in a room together, with a couple of bottles of beer, we could talk about this stuff calmly and without anybody getting upset. It's just music, which is almost necessarily a very subjective thing.

Mark

[Tom C]

I do not think Jerry longed to be accepted in the world of bluegrass. He did what he did. The Kentucky Colonels were a huge influence on Jerry and the tunes that the Dead played. Darn, sometimes when you listen to them, you can just imagine Jerry singing the tunes.

Quote:"Sure he had a lot of pressures on him, but he obviously loved to play or else he wouldn't have continued doing it."

Well, all musicians love to play, but the Dead should have broken up long before Jerry died. Too many members of "The Family" were dependent on the dead to make a living. A lot of people with kids would have been unemployed. I bet Jerry would have gone back to his roots had they broke up. Imagine what a bluegrass festival would turn out to be if Jerry was on the schedule? I do not miss hanging with the Dead scene and the hippies. I'd much rather hang out with pickin friends from 12-80years old.

[luckylarue]

I agree about the beers, Mark, but I doubt anyone is upset - just a healthy debate!

And by the way, I have always believed that a large percentage of bluegrass fans don't have a clue what bluegrass is about, either.

Quite a pompous statement if I must say so! We all have our own "clue" - but it really doesn't matter, does it? It seems absurd to place constraints or limits as to what bluegrass "is about".

Cheers:;):

[Lee]

Mark's point about the Dead "scene" being much more than the music is certainly true. #
During my reminiscent musings I've come to realize that none of the Grateful Dead members ever attended a Dead concert. And I've felt sorry for them in a way. It's funny that many "Dead heads" consider the band the central theme of the scene, yet at the same time the band members would be quick to proclaim the crowd, the "diaspora", was the central theme. #Being an attendee at concerts and a part of the scene provided a vantage point the band will never know.
Everyone creates their own reality from whatever stimulus is provided. #Therefore everyone's own personal reality is no more pertinent or no less valid than next fella's.

[J. Mark Lane]

It's funny that many "Dead heads" consider the band the central theme of the scene,
I think this was only true from about some time in the mid-to-late 1970's forward. It was not true in the time period before that. The band was only one of many other musical groups, and the musical groups were almost peripheral in the early years. Indeed, the band was itself "about" the other stuff that was going on.

As for bluegrass, I was at some of the Union Grove festivals in the early 1970's, as Neil Rosenberg describes. It was those kinds of events that led bluegrass music to turn inward, and changed the face of the festival scene. Some of the things I saw at those festivals would make you sick just to hear them described. Those people certainly did not "understand" bluegrass, but they claimed to be fans.

Cheers, guys. Here's to ya! <clink>

Mark

[RobP]

Do any of you who play in bands record your practices? #We usually do (I play in a trio called the Kindreds with guitar, mandolin (me) and vocals) and it is a real kick to listen to them later. #We have a lot of fun at practices, and we make our share of mistakes -- and that is OK!

Not that I consider myself at all in the same leauge as Grisman, Rice and Garcia, #the Pizza Tapes reminds me of our own practice tapes. #Friends getting together to play and work on music with no real audience intended. #Some mistakes, but lots of fun.

I checked this CD out of the library a couple weeks ago and I like it so much now I have to buy it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Just my $0.02

Rob

[Lee]

<Ahhhh>
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KevinM]

Uh...I like Rice's ultra cool, jazzy, "fractured" solo on Rosa Lee McFall.

[mandofiddle]

LOL! That's a favorite punchline in the band I'm in. If someone flubs a few notes on a solo and then uses a few wrong notes to get back to it, they'll look up with a grin and say "Jazz..."

[SternART]

Yo mandofiddle......."Jazz".....A trick I use, that Todd Phillips taught me, was to creatively repeat those flubbed notes so they seem intentional.....on the route back to being on track. I'm learning to enjoy improvising more, by venturing into the unknown & finding your way back builds confidence.

[250sc]

If you don't make mistakes you're not trying anything new. Some of my favorite licks were originally mistakes.

[250sc]

If you don't make mistakes you're not trying anything new. Some of my favorite licks were originally mistakes.

[mandofiddle]

Hey SternART, yeah, I've kind of figured that out on my own. If it doesn't sound right at first, it will on the third time (unless it's REALLY bad), and thereby sound intentional. I love trying to walk (or in this case play) the line between melody and something totally out there. Sometimes it sounds bad, other times it sounds good. And then I just remember the gooduns for later http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

If ... no wait ... WHEN I land on a sucker note, I've been known to just stay right on top of it, and to keep hitting it LOUDER and LOUDER.

My favorite was when a guitarist and I were playing Midnight Rider, and he landed a chord excatly 1/2-step off. KNWQKPT! Well, he just stayed off for the next THREE chords. CLANG! HUMRPT! BPTWANG! and then (when we had finally come 'home') he lands right on his feet at the tonic. The house was dying!

Lemons or Lemonade .. the choice is yours.

[fmspinc]

There are no wrong notes - only poor choices ... (quoted from somewhere).

And back on topic - Pizza Tapes remains one of my all time favorites - 'mistakes' and all. My kids listen to the 'dirty' words as well - life is what it is.

[John Ritchhart]

I love the pizza tapes. Love the "humanness" in them. I never was a dead head. Never did drugs.. but I always saw the good guy inside Jerry no matter how he behaved. There was a sweetness about him. Don't know. But I like to hear him play acoustic music and I wish he was still here.

[Christopher Howard-Williams]

It seems to me Gerry Garcia and Tony Rice play in two different worlds - sometimes on the Pizza Tapes those worlds meet and it's wonderful ; sometimes they don't and it's ok.
On BBC Radio 2 last night they played Uncle John's Band. It was great.
One of my favourite moments was my 8 year old boy saying "Hey, what's this? It's really cool." It was Grateful Dead live in Boston in 1974! At least one of my kids has a discerning approach to music. Yay!
Garcia introduced me to Bluegrass through OAITW - forever Grateful.

[Pete Counter]

when I first picked up a banjo in 1992 after playing guitar (mostly rock) for 12 years.I had never heard of david grisman,or tony rice.I had heard of jerry garcia but had never listened to the grateful dead.I played banjo for 7 years.Then switched back to guitar.By this time I knew tony rice but still had not experience david grisman that I knew of.I had heard a few tracks of oaitw but all I knew of them was garcia was on banjo. In mid 2001 I found my way to the mandolin and started looking for guitar and mandolin music.So you know I eventually found grismans Tone Poems. But I have to say when I picked up a copy of the pizza tapes, It didnt leave my cd player for nearly three months and still gets played at least once or twice a month.Eventually leading me to garcia/grisman and dawg music and newgrass, wich I previously snubbed as I was a bluegrass snob.The pizza tapes broke me out of snobery and opened my ears and my mind to alot of music I never thought I would like.Garcia Grismans "So What" got me listening to jazz.And recently I found my way to Jethro Burns final cd,s on acoustic disc.Say what you want about the pizza tapes but I think it saved me from being one those old guys pickin nothing but the same bill monroe tunes and turning my wrinkled nose up at anything else.

[Moose]

pickinpete: Well put!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[garyblanchard]

While "Pizza Tapes" is one of my least favorite Garcia/Grisman discs, I love it for what it is. Not many of us would sit down with folks we may not know that well, play songs that we had not played together before, and tape it for posterity. These discs are mementos of a moment, a gift to see the process, and a reminder that music is for fun, not for perfection.

In this day and age of slick, overproduced music I find these discs to be a breath of fresh air.

[SternART]

"In this day and age of slick, overproduced music I find these discs to be a breath of fresh air."

Yep Gary, and I'm sure that is precisely why Grisman has left in some between tune banter on these CD's w/Jerry.
You can just tell they are enjoying themselves, old friends.....just pickin' some tunes they enjoy. It
helps us get a glimpse of Jerry & David's relationship.

[mandopete]

Not many of us would sit down with folks we may not know that well, play songs that we had not played together before, and tape it for posterity.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't the original recordings stolen by a pizza delivery person (hence the name) and released as a "bootleg" recording?

I don't know much of the details, but it seems to me that at some point David Grisman must have thought there was some level of merit to this recording to release it as a commericial recording. I doubt that was the original intention though. #One could think of it a musical voyuerism.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Moose]

Yeah!..., that's it! : "musical voyuerism" - gotta' add that to my musical vocabulary. hee... hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Perry]

I always find it suspect when "posters" question the abilities
of the true innovators of an entire genre......

oh well

[mandolinbill]

I must say that I loved it! I love the rawness of it. It is very similar to the jams I have with a friend of mine. As a matter of fact, he's the guy who introduced it to me. We would sit outside in frony of a fire and just play along with it. Making many more mistakes than they did. But it was fun as it was fun for them. It just turned out to be really good. Just my two cents.

[fangsdaddy]

mandopete writes: "Correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't the original recordings stolen by a pizza delivery person (hence the name) and released as a "bootleg" recording?"

yes, these recordings circulated for years in the GD trading community but does anyone know if they were ever "released" as a bootleg? personally, i don't know a deadhead who'd buy a boot as the ethic has always been trading music w/no financial gain involved. (another lasting influence of the deadheads---fans of other bands from metallica to gillian welch have adopted that ethic.) i figured grisman released the recordings because people wanted to hear them & he could release them in the very best quality available instead of a cassette nine generations down. that said, if the pizza delivery guy's theft forced grisman into releasing the pizza tapes for real, i'd like to buy that pizza delivery guy a beer.
sam

[PaulD]

The liner notes tell the "official" story of what happened... I don't have it handy but as I recall the tape that was stolen was a copy Grisman had made for Garcia and the pizza boy lifted it from Garcia's kitchen.

I'm glad Grisman released the CD; I think it's a classic folk album. Would we expect raw, live recordings of Missippi John Hurt or Woody Guthrie to be polished with perfect timing, singing, etc? I wouldn't, and I love the Pizza Tapes CD for what it is. It's not my favorite Grisman/Garcia or Grisman/Rice, but I had it on last weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it. Tony Rice was an integral part of the "moment"; you couldn't have that album without him.

All that said, there is still no excuse for stealing, and the pizza boy certainly doesn't deserve a beer or any other reward. I wouldn't be surprised if Garcia would have made him a copy if he'd asked, but instead he just rips it off. Sorry... I don't see anything praise-worthy in that behavior.

The Dead bootlegs were typically recordings of concerts, which the band condoned. That's a whole different thing from stealing from someone that has invited you into their home!

Okay, I'm done with my rant and I'll step off my soapbox now! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paul Doubek

[fangsdaddy]

hi paul,
re: the dead & audience recoding:
one minor point. until 1971 or so the dead didn't allow the recording of their concerts. audience recordings had to stealthed.

re: the pizza guy. a mando forum isn't really the place to discuss moral issues. & i see your point. but consider this, if the pizza guy had not taken that course of action you would not have been listening to the "pizza tapes" last weekend. they'd still be storage somewhere. considering as much pleasure as these recordings seem to give a number of people, is it all that wrong? #btw, did you have a cassette from the trading circles prior to it's official release & if so, were you on your soapbox then?
sam

[J. Mark Lane]

Something that is immoral and illegal does not become justified simply because others derive some pleasure from the act. That is itself about the most amoral suggestion one could make. The consequences of such a philosophy are really unthinkable.

Mark

P.S. I did not enjoy the Paris Hilton tape. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Rick Schmidlin]

The pizza story is a legend but not fact. The real story which I know is not so exciting.There was no no pizza delivery man theft, another note the pazza tapes are fun for what they are, with out it what would we have?

Less Garcia, Grisman

Rick http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mzbanjo]

I used to have a copy of it on cassette way back when...I don't think it even had the words "pizza tape" on it. I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to have it. I don't think I even know where it is anymore (I probably could find it though). The thing I liked about the cassette is that it has more material on it than what was released (a lot of that 'extra' stuff was mulitple takes). Either way, I think it's a fun recording.

Piece
Matt

[Lee]

Dave G. has gone out of his way to release music on Acoustic Disc. Whatever the history, I feel rather certain he'd have realized the tape was worthy of release, eventually.
Any historians know what portable taping equipment was available to the typical consumer prior to 1971?

[nupicker]

I just want to say that if it wasn't for Tony I wouldn't have started playing bluegrass and eventually falling in love with the mando. Most of the greats today name him as one of their primary bluegrass influences. I have a cd of Bill Monroe that I often play at work and some people (some very good musicians themselves) will walk by and just shake their head out of pain. But they have enough respect for him for who he was and the influence he still has today that they won't dare publicly humiliate him. anyway, sorry about the rant. Great CD.

[Moose]

No problems here ; enjoy YOUR music ; "life is short - pick hard!" (source:forgotten)... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[John Ritchhart]

Lee, I'm no historian but in 1971 I had a Teac reel to reel tape recorder. You could buy professional tape recorders too for things like court recordings etc. Teac, Pioneer, and a few others (there was a new one called Sony, but I wasn't buying some upstart company like that) had tape recorders for stereo systems. It was about this time I saw a cassette tape for the first time. My roommate said "these are the wave of the future" I said no way, only 4 tracks. 'Course I didn't buy microsoft in '86 either.

[jmcgann]

People were schlepping huge tube-driven tape machines around for live recordings since the 1940's- that's how Alan Lomax got all those field recordings, no easy task. There is a multi-disc set from Mosaic of Charlie Parker club recordings made by a rabid fan who at times had the machine in the basement under the stage and stuck a mic up through a hole in the ceiling. No, not "wire recordings"- actual magnetic tape in the '40's.

We have it easy with these minidiscs!

[fangsdaddy]

re: taping in the 60's/early 70's. read BOOTLEG: THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE OTHER RECORD INDUSTRY (Clinton Heylin) [St. Martin's Press]for more details than you'll ever need to know. mostly portable reel to reels & early cassette recorders. i'll second the "thank god for mini discs" & stealth mics. we have it easy today.
sam

[ira]

as this thread is semi-related to jerry g. and now recording. one of the most amazing things in the 70s/and even early 80s before the arenas allowed taper sections at gd shows, was how quickly the tapers could set up and breakdown so as not to get caught. simply amazing to watch. i never taped, but was the beneficiary of many, and loved to watch the quick drop of the mics and wrap of the chords just after the last note of the encore.:) (aaah memories...)

[Lee]

Ira, I also recall the plethora of mike stands bristling up from the crowds at half-time. Quite often the ushers would get such a "raft of grief" from the rest of the crowd around a taper that it became virtually impossible for them to enforce any such ban once the show had begun.
I recall meeting an early girlfried of mine seeing her pull a battery powered cassette recorder hidden underneath her overalls after exiting a Garcia Band show outside the Tower Theater. She'd hafta be a pretty big woman to do the same thing with a reel-to-reel!