The Spirit in the Mandolin [Archive]

Wilbur James

Jul-16-2012, 8:13am

I often wonder, knowing that an instrument continues on even after one player gives it up for a new one, the stories and emotions that that instrument has experienced. If that instrument could talk imagine the journey throughout that instruments life. Some become favorite companions others get locked away waiting to be awakened again. Does the history of that instruments life come through in spirit or does it keep its secrets, does it find its way to the player that it truly belongs to? I think it would be interesting to know the life of a mandolin from the day its created until..........

JEStanek

Jul-16-2012, 8:32am

Watch the Red Violin (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120802/)for a movie version of that idea. I don't anthropomorphize things too much. I believe the connection I feel with objects comes from me and no one else. It is a very romantic notion, however, and would make for a good novel.

Jamie

JeffD

Jul-16-2012, 9:06am

I cannot help but have a fascination with the life history of a mandolin. I look at lots of old pictures of mandolin players and mandolin orchestras and I always look to see if anyone is playing an Gibson A2 snakehead and wonder if it could be my 23 snakehead. I mean the very same one. It would be so cool to know that.

At my recent purchase of an L&H the owner told me all about the previous owner, and the history as it came down to him. So cool.

Does it make any difference realistically? Not really. It would be cool if someone could fill up a mandolin with tunes before I got it, but I am not much into magical thinking.

OTOH - by playing music, of any kind, we are participating in a very old and venerated tradition, going back to the way back times. I do get a thrill being part of something so much bigger than me, and experiencing some of the same joys and frustrations balancing a musical life with a real job, and a family, and a lawn, and a vehicle, and a phone bill.... The urges that drive me to drive myself to a jam an hour away every Monday night, or to take out my mandolin early in the morning before it gets too hot and sit on the porch, are the same urges that countless people over the eons have felt and acted upon. It is wonderful to be a part of that, and to be able to relate on an accoustic level with countless generations.

This is especailly true for me when I take a bowlback out its case. OMG. I look at my hand holding that ancient iconic shaped piece of striped wood at the base of the neck and I think of the tradition I am part of and it can be overwhelming.

Or if I play some Vivaldi, or Bach, and participate in some intimate intellectual way with the musical imagination now dead some 262 years.

Speaking to the dead is easy. Hearing them respond, now that is a trick.

OldSausage

Jul-16-2012, 9:13am

This is the whole reason I never wear second hand pants.

hank

Jul-16-2012, 10:27am

OldSausage!! You sure know how to make an old man laugh. I've learned to put any food or liquids down before reading your post.

mandomedic

Jul-16-2012, 10:44am

I've been an instrument repairman for many years. Each time a instrument comes into the shop for repair, I think about where it's been, who owned it, what it's musical history is. John Sebastian wrote and recorded a song called "Stories We Could Tell", circa 1972 from an album called Tarzana. The second verse and chorus come to mind at the handling of each instrument. Approximately it goes:
Remember that guitar in a museum in Tennessee. The nameplate on the glass brings back 20 melodies. The scratches on the top told of all the times he fell, Oh, the stories it could tell... Oh the stories it could tell, I'll bet you it still rings like a bell. I wish that we could sit back in a room in some motel, and listen to the stories it could tell...

So yes, instruments do take on a life of their own and I think they take on the personalities of their owners too. Can't prove it, but I know it when I see one..

Jim Rowland

Jul-16-2012, 10:58am

By human logic,no romantic answer. But,we are trapped in the atomic world which may a minor part of the universe. In the subatomic,all our logic breaks down and we have only the smallest hint of what's possible.
Jim

Mandobart

Jul-16-2012, 11:23am

catmandu2

Jul-16-2012, 11:41am

Speaking atomically, the atoms in all of us were here before the world began, and will still be around when the world ends. Who knows where/what/who those atoms in you have been before? Who and where and what will they be when your soul leaves them?

I think the same thing (wonder about previous and future custodians) about every car/motorcycle/home that I pass thru as well.

Having spent considerable time with folks near end of life and themselves immersed in contemplation, I'm increasingly drawn toward experienceing this life in context of the unrelenting awareness of the greater whole. Rational man has of course filtered out much possibilitiy--by filling in the voids with calculable materialistic "solutions."

Yet here we come round again to our intuition outgrowing our models of rational explanation. We are near again to another epoch. It's a fun ride, if you let it be

JeffD

Jul-16-2012, 12:15pm

Human beings, myself included, are masters at conceiving of a context in which what ever we are experiencing is a small subset. We seek transcendence through being infinitesimal.

Jack Roberts

Jul-16-2012, 12:16pm

My A-1 came from a well known dealer who picked it up at a large lot sale. Completely anonymous, so I don't know where it came from.

Even though I paid more than the going price for clean A-1s, this one is extremely worn. There is no pick-guard, and a lot of pinky and pick wear on the top below the E-string. The case is falling apart. The finish was covered with a black, tarry crud, especially the neck. There is a cigarette burn on the binding around the oval. Structurally it has been well cared for, however.

In the 90 years from the time it was built until I owned it, it was very extensively played by somebody who smoked a lot an played a lot. I had the dealer try to trace its provenance, but he could only go back to a festival in Northern California where he bought a lot of instruments from a trader in old guitars.

This mandolin sounds terrific, even after I carefully cleaned the crud off (which was disgusting.)

It keeps its secrets about its history and who played what kind of music on it. I'd love to know: the spirit within it comes from whoever is playing it, and I'd love to have heard the spirit of the previous owner.

jaycat

Jul-16-2012, 12:16pm

This is the whole reason I never wear second hand pants.

David, you've made a happy man very old.

If my mandolin could talk, it would say: change my strings, dust me off once in a while, and quit hitting clams!

catmandu2

Jul-16-2012, 12:40pm

Human beings, myself included, are masters at conceiving of a context in which what ever we are experiencing is a small subset. We seek transcendence through being infinitesimal .

Quite so I think: we're historically masterful at contriving limitations (boundaries, etc) so the "reality" of the whole doesn't blow our Western minds (which are culturally conditioned into dealing with only the small "subset" as is the way of scientific method. Art, conversely, is the method by which particulars are vivified)

Wilbur James

Jul-16-2012, 1:04pm

One of my beliefs is just because I don't understand or see what is in this world, it does not mean that it does not exist, now granted an instrument is an inanimate object, but who has not been drawn to an old instrument hanging on a wall because of the wear from its past, David Rawlings found his Epiphone in a garage buried in sawdust, he said he liked the vibe of that guitar, and decided to bring it back to life, What a beautiful sounding instrument! Some people want a distressed instrument, maybe because there is something inside them wanting that spirit but just can't see it with their own eyes, that doesn't mean that the spirit of an instrument can not be real.

Ed Goist

Jul-16-2012, 2:32pm

I can not play my recently acquired 1937 Gretsch tenor guitar (Lenore) without feeling she has had a storied history. This is based on absolutely no evidence...It's just a very strong feeling I get when I play her.

It is not uncommon for me to take years to warm-up to an instrument. Often, I never do...This is the case even with expensive instruments, and sometimes even with instruments I have custom ordered to my own specs [Ouch...that hurts!].

However, after 5 minutes with Lenore she was named and cherished. I know she has lots of stories to tell...I'm looking forward to getting to know her better, and to hearing those stories.

Ivan Kelsall

Jul-17-2012, 5:08am

From OS - "This is the whole reason I never wear second hand pants.". No use me sending you begging letters then !.
I had exactly the same feeling back in '62,when i bought my first good quality banjo. It was a Clifford Essex 'Boudoir Grande',made in 1914 by the CE Music Co.Ltd.in the UK.They were nothing like a Mastertone ie. no tone ring.The sheer age of it made me wonder who owned / played it,where it had been etc..It was the oldest thing i'd ever owned. It was the banjo i played when my band opened for Bill Monroe over here in '66. I did eventually sell it to a friend of mine who proceeded to butcher it 'to make it better'.I never forgave him for doing that - praise the Lord it wasn't a Loar mandolin !!,
Ivan

Bertram Henze

Jul-17-2012, 6:07am

There is that old violin on my wall, the one I was once forced to learn to play. Should it ever start to utter spiritual anecdotes of history, I'd be forced to pour some spirit over it and set it alight. :cool:

red7flag

Jul-17-2012, 7:49am

When I described how I bought my house, my cousin said that having a good relation with the sellers was more important that getting a few k off the price. He said that now my house has a great mojo. I agree. I feel the same about my instruments. They could tell stories. But, mostly they have been loved. Yes, there are probably more marks on them, but they are played and played a lot. They are loved and loved a lot. Like my dogs, they love me back. They sing for me. They are very special instruments and they have had to put up with me.

Bertram Henze

Jul-17-2012, 8:14am

He said that now my house has a great mojo.

No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream. Hill House, not sane, stood by itself against its hills, holding darkness within; it had stood so for eighty years and might stand for eighty more. Within, walls continued upright, bricks met neatly, floors were firm, and doors were sensibly shut; silence lay steadily against the wood and stone of Hill House, and whatever walked there, walked alone (Shirley Jackson)

http://www.shadowlocked.com/images/stories/LISTS/hauntedhouses/001_Hill_House.jpg

JeffD

Jul-17-2012, 8:28am

Quite so I think: we're historically masterful at contriving limitations (boundaries, etc) so the "reality" of the whole doesn't blow our Western minds (which are culturally conditioned into dealing with only the small "subset" as is the way of scientific method. Art, conversely, is the method by which particulars are vivified)

Well my emphasis was the other way actually, what we create is the context. What is, is what is in front of us.

Likely we are both "right".

catmandu2

Jul-17-2012, 9:25am

Well my emphasis was the other way actually, what we create is the context. What is, is what is in front of us.

What is, is all around us--but we are conditioned to deal only with what is immediately "in front" of us

"20th century" man tries to "create" context, but he perpetuates his alienation by abstraction. While we are naturally integrated, if only we understood

hank

Jul-17-2012, 9:30am

I give my mandolins names for the same reason people and pets get nicknames. It's short and sweet and preferred to year/model identification. Yes, I sometimes imagine the old ones past but the spirit in mine are a projection of myself. They all are an extension of myself or whom ever is energizing the instrument with themselves. Without a player they seem dead and spiritless. Past owners may have had an effect on their sound or response by the way they were played, cared for and location climate wise but anything else seems superstitious to me. On the other hand I don't believe in coincidences either. Often I've witnessed a series of events transpire that seem to put a particularly well suited instrument or persons together in a way that helps that persons or someone close to them see their deepest desires manifest. Christians call it Gods answer to their prayers, Occultist call it magick. I lean toward the Buddist explanation that it's the inner workings of the One. It's almost as if we are playing the reality around us as we do our simple wooden instruments and other extensions of ourselves.

SGraham

Jul-17-2012, 9:47am

I find myself following this train of thought more often with old tools than with musical instruments. Nicks, dings, hand wear, these can all be very evocative of previous owners.

I've also got an old pair of binoculars that a member of our tribe used in the 57th PA Volunteer Infantry Regiment in the Army of the Potomac. Nearly every time someone picks them up they say something like, "Oh my! What these things must have seen!"

JeffD

Jul-17-2012, 4:18pm

"20th century" man tries to "create" context, but he perpetuates his alienation by abstraction. While we are naturally integrated, if only we understood

Well that is a popular notion I think. But perhaps we are naturally "focused" and learn to make context as we learn abstraction. So following the natural course we play the instrument, unaware of a past or future (abstractions), or a legend or mojo. As we learn abstraction we conceive of family (an abstraction), community (another abstraction), us versus them, mine versus yours. Perhaps we started out entirely alienated and connected with our world (an abstraction) as we learned to conceive of it.

What made me think of this was another thread where Jim Nollman describes how a cow bird steals another birds nest and bullies out any existing eggs so the hapless owner raises chicks not her own. Its only outrageous or immoral behavior in a certain context, otherwise it just is what it is.

I think though that music has always been in the context of community, and so "playing with" is not very far away from just playing. Mojo and history and legend and being part of a tradition, those things perhaps are not as close.

catmandu2

Jul-17-2012, 4:23pm

I think we need to unlearn alientation, among so many of the things we need to unlearn

OldSausage

Jul-17-2012, 6:16pm

I think we need to unlearn alientation, among so many of the things we need to unlearn

But I feel so at home with the alienated.

Ray Neuman

Jul-17-2012, 6:38pm

I believe everything has a harmonic balance. A "tone" so to speak. Wood especially. So, I believe a craftsman injects their tone, the wood does, and so on until the instrument has songs to sing. We as musicians find the songs and pull them out of the instrument. Some instruments like this style, some like that, but they all have their personalities. Its what we speak of when we say..."That instrument speaks to me".....its harmonic tone fits ours well. Perhaps that is why acoustic instruments are so fickel, where as electrics are so toolish.

I need another beer.

catmandu2

Jul-17-2012, 8:45pm

But I feel so at home with the alienated.

It's but an illusion

Marcus CA

Jul-17-2012, 9:01pm

But I feel so at home with the alienated.

Better that than feeling so alienated at home!

I believe everything has a harmonic balance. A "tone" so to speak. Wood especially...Its what we speak of when we say..."That instrument speaks to me".....its harmonic tone fits ours well.

I can't explain it, but I think that used instruments come with music in them. When I play a new instrument in a store, it usually takes me a few minutes to lock in with it. With a used one, sometimes it's the same, but sometimes it's just a matter of seconds.

Maybe I don't need another beer.

mandocrucian

Jul-17-2012, 10:13pm

http://sharetv.org/images/guide/204654.jpg

Did you buy an instrument from "Curious Goods" (formerly "Vendredi's Antiques") ? :)

Now a question I'll put forward is:

If you do subscribe to any of the numerous religious belief sytems that include intervention by supernatural entities/deities, sacred relics/places, etc. etc. etc., how is it possible to also dismiss the possibilty of haunted houses, voodoo, paranormal "talents" (telepathy.....) or "mojo" and "power objects"?

How can you buy into "King Arthur" without also buying into the concept of magic swords?

NH

greg_tsam

Jul-18-2012, 12:19am

This is the whole reason I never wear second hand pants.

I draw the line at second hand undies.

greg_tsam

Jul-18-2012, 12:21am

Please indulge my redundant laziness and allow me to quote myself from another thread.

I have a special aura that allows me to connect to the wood nymphs and faeries that once lived in the tree and now their residual energies reside in the mando at hand. It usually takes about 15-20 minutes of holding/stroking/caressing/talking and playing the mando to make the connection and become one with the wood and enhancing it's tone.

My ears, fingers and muscles all need to warm up too and my physiology settles down and gets into my mandolin groove as well.

YMMV.

:mandosmiley:

Bertram Henze

Jul-18-2012, 2:25am

I draw the line at second hand undies.

What ye take into your hand, ye take into your heart ... and touch not the unclean thing! :grin:

AcEe0LbP2wY

Griff

Jul-18-2012, 3:10am

I wish the spirit in my well-used Eastman would push my fingers a little faster, and guide them to the right frets at the right time!

Wilbur James

Jul-18-2012, 7:33am

[QUOTE=Ray Neuman;1071018]I believe everything has a harmonic balance. A "tone" so to speak. Wood especially. So, I believe a craftsman injects their tone, the wood does, and so on until the instrument has songs to sing.

I believe there are some fiddles that have a latin saying carved into the sides of the instrument, when translated to english it says quote " In life I was silent, in death I sing" referring to the tree the wood made to make the instrument came from>

Bertram Henze

Jul-18-2012, 7:51am

So, I believe a craftsman injects their tone, the wood does, and so on until the instrument has songs to sing.

When I was a little child, learning my first instrument (a schmalzither, a 3-stringed instrument on a table, not unlike a dulcimer), our teacher told us that this is a dwarf with three hairs, and if we pull his hair he cries out.

I need another beer.

The best philosophical contribution so far on this thread.

Gregory Tidwell

Jul-18-2012, 1:02pm

I have never named an instrument before (seems kind of silly to me, for an bunch of instrumens that are all younger then the average Stradivarius and/or not played by Chuck Berry), but I am having one built right now that my daughter wants me to name after the horse in The Black Stallion. She's 6, but she is already in love with the photos (and video) the builder has sent me. That mandolin has allowed us to bond in a new way, so I'm already head-over-heels about it too, even though it's months away. We are both going to play it and I don't really believe in this kind of stuff, but if there is something to it, I hope that instrument gets a little bit of my daughter as a young girl into it. [/romanticism]

catmandu2

Jul-18-2012, 1:24pm

I have never named an instrument before (seems kind of silly to me,

As a dyed-in-the-wool metaphysicist, romanticist, and musical "symbioticist"... I admit that I find the notion silly, myself. I've never been one to name automobiles, guns, or other tools (my pet names are given off the cuff)

Charley wild

Jul-18-2012, 1:42pm

I'm not at all cosmic. I don't believe in "mojo", "aura" and other such terms. I don't name objects of any kind. As far as a used instrument coming with the music already in it; I traded Dobros with Norman Blake once and it certainly didn't work in that case. It still sounded just like me. If it had Norman's music in it I never found out how to get it out!
I've had good used and new instruments and bad used and new instruments. An instrument either works for me or it doesn't.

Bill Baldridge

Jul-18-2012, 2:00pm

If it doesn't hurt someone else and only applies to you, believe whatever makes your life most meaningful.

JeffD

Jul-18-2012, 2:06pm

Now a question I'll put forward is:

If you do subscribe to any of the numerous religious belief sytems that include intervention by supernatural entities/deities, sacred relics/places, etc. etc. etc., how is it possible to also dismiss the possibilty of haunted houses, voodoo, paranormal "talents" (telepathy.....) or "mojo" and "power objects"?

How can you buy into "King Arthur" without also buying into the concept of magic swords?

So its all or nothing, eh?

Chekhov said: "He was a rationalist, but he had to confess that he liked the sound of church bells."

Beanzy

Jul-19-2012, 12:14am

Well if you buy a vintage instrument from a long dead player and have a look inside you'll see the bits they didn't get to bury.
Make sure you give it a good dust off beneath the willow tree or somewhere else you think they'd like to be. :grin:

if6was9

Jul-19-2012, 3:09am

Bertram Henze

Jul-19-2012, 8:04am

I have acess to a great mandolin that was originally owned by a famous player, and later by a really good semi famous player. Nearly everyone who plays it (or even hears it) is affected by this knowledge and seems to think it is superior to similar mandolins (i.e. same make and model) that do not share its particular history.

Now we're getting someplace else, ending up with the imagination of players (and customers to be) harnessed by ads and special editions involving celebrities. Nobody will question the real existance of this phenomenon which works even when the celebrity in question never touched the actual instrument you've bought.
Under these circumstances, who's the one to question the magic of a dead man's undies ? :))

Seriously, I'd far rather play an instrument I grew up with than somebody else's. Sometimes, I like to just sit, do nothing and enjoy being me.