Vintage Gibson A4 snakehead --- what's it worth?

[tmarks1056]

Hey guys,
I'm a total novice and know virtually nothing about vintage instruments. I just know I have one! I acquired it from my grandmother.

It's a Gibson A4 snakehead model with VIRZI, sunburst finish, I believe it's from 1923-1925. (The serial number, 79577, seems to match those production years.)

It's not in mint condition, although I would consider it in very good condition, showing signs of it's age. It is missing the metal plate that covers the bottom of the strings at the bottom (sorry! not sure the right term for this). All the other parts are original and present. It has the original hard case as well, but this is not in awesome condition, I rescued it from an attic.

From what I've read, these models are highly sought after and it seems those in excellent condition are going for pretty large amounts of money online. Though, I haven't been able to find much information about those that aren't in pristine condition so I have absolutely no idea what this thing is worth.

Anyone want to give me their opinion? Any information would be much appreciated!

Thanks!

[G7MOF]

Do you have a few pictures?

[mrmando]

Absolutely worthless, but for $25 I'll take it off your hands. ;)

79577 points to a shipment date of early 1926 according to Spann's Guide to Gibson, but the instrument was almost certainly built between 1923 and 1925, as you suggest. If you look through the soundhole at the neck block, you should see a "factory order number" stamped on the block. It will probably have 4 digits beginning with 8, but could have 5 digits and might even have an A after the numerals. If you find this number, we can infer the manufacture date from it.

In all-original condition and in a healthy vintage instrument market, you could expect to get $7500 for a snakehead A4 with Virzi. But we don't necessarily have a healthy market, and you mention that yours isn't in the best condition. Not having seen photos, we can't say anything for sure about its value. The missing part is called a tailpiece cover; sometimes old ones are available for $125 to $150. So yours can be replaced, although absence of the original would devalue it somewhat.

The problems that arise from neglect and improper storage can usually be fixed by an experienced repair technician, and even a repaired snakehead A4 can be worth a few thousand dollars. If you want to sell it, you can also consider offering it as is, and leaving it up to the buyer to have it fixed -- as long as you price it in a way that accounts for its needing work.

You should loosen all the strings if there is any tension on them. Whatever you do, you should not try to tune it up and play it until after it has been repaired.

I love my snakehead A4 even though it doesn't have a Virzi. Yours sounds like quite a find.

[tmarks1056]

Do you have a few pictures?

Yes, just took some this morning. The finish chipped on that one side is the only real standout damage I see and it seems like it could be easily repaired. 8913289131891308912989133

[F-2 Dave]

Sweet.

[hank]

Wow you are a lucky grandson except the part about the attic. :crying: Hide glue and wood don't often fair too well in the high temperature of attics. mrmando's advice is good to back the tension off the strings(really neat old strings though) since some of the support glue joints may have failed in the attic heat. I wouldn't back all the tension off though because the bridge is only held in place by string tension. Your pictures make it difficult for us to determine if your top has withstood the attic heat or sagged and sunken in. If you are unable to find a competent mandolin luthier to check it out for you and you are of the DIY persuasion check all the seams carefully for separations then reach inside the sound hole towards the bridge with a finger and gently check the support there for integrity. If that support has broken loose the top will sink in thus the advice to back off string tension until you check it out. A small mechanics/dental type mirror and good light will help you look inside for failed glue joints, etc.
Try shaking the mandolin to see if it rattles(without a rattler tail, some folks put rattle snake rattlers inside there, who knows your grandmother might have been pretty cool in her day). Look down the fingerboard and neck from the tuning end, this should be straight to slightly bowed inward. If everything seems solidly glued in place then bring the strings up to pitch and see if she sings without buzzing, etc.,etc. at this point it's all fine tuning that you can also do yourself if you resonate in DIY land.

[tmarks1056]

Thanks Hank, for the tips. Structurally, this thing is very sound. No sagging or sinking and all the seams are in tact. As far as how it plays, I wouldn't know good from bad (as I don't play at all), but I'm going to take it to a good Luthier next week to get an expert opinion. From what I've been able to report so far, anyone want to throw out a price?

[sgarrity]

Pricing in this economy is difficult. It all depends on how fast you would want to move it. I think $7,500 is a pipe dream when F4's from the same period are selling for $8k-ish. A snakehead A4 sold on ebay a few months back for just over $4k, it was a non-virzi I believe. And there was another that sold around the $5k mark, can't remember if it had a virzi. My opinion is worth exactly what you had to pay to get it but I think you'd be doing pretty good to get $5-6k for it, with a tailpiece cover.

[JeffD]

If you do desire to sell it, consider the cafe classifieds. You will get it in front of the most knowledgeable audience around, those who know what it is and why its special.

[mrmando]

Yeah, action looks high in one photo and low in another, so it's hard to tell if there's any top sinkage or neck problems. Just about every old Gibson I've bought has needed the transverse brace reglued to some degree. Even if the brace isn't entirely detached, it may still need some hot hide glue forced under it. I always make a point of having a luthier check that brace.

Don't know from these photos if it needs a fret job or not. The finish damage on the side is no big deal ... and anything more than a light French polish there would devalue the instrument. Original coffee-colored tuner buttons are a desirable feature.

It is missing the pickguard, which is another hit on its value. And you didn't post any pictures of the case.

Lowell Levinger has an all-original snakehead A4 with Virzi for $7,650. This one won't be worth that much, but Shaun could be in the right ballpark with his $5-6k estimate.

If anyone suggests having the Virzi removed -- don't do it! Some people like them; others don't, but so many have been removed that the few Virzis that are still in their original instruments really ought to remain there.

Did you get a chance to find the factory order number?

[mandotool]

I believe this'n here was the 4k Ebay A-4 non virzi being talked about earlier.....
http://www.vintagemandolin.com/24gibsona4_77217_fon11066.html
As i humbly predicted at the time ...it was promptly back in the market and resold? in the 7.+K range..

As to this virzi..alot of question marks here..first off...I'd like to get a better look at the neck/heel to body joint..
seems like mebbe an issue there...perhaps not..
bridge is bottomed out ...action is high...photo such as it is ..looks like perhaps a gap at he heel joint? A better photo would tell..
And i would second the motion...DO NOT PUT THE STRINGS UNDER TENSION until you have it looked at by a reputable luthier..
cleaned up and propper ,i would put value in the range of 5-7K...
the virzi and nice figure in the back should provide a nice bump in value...
IMHO.... A-4's Snakes Rule!!..best of luck

tip of the hat to ya Mr.Garrity..nice pickin with you at Monroe camp last year..see you soon i hope..

[mandroid]

Yea the Missing Pick-guard and the cam clamp that made those finish chips is a minus.

Lowell is a pretty aggressive Business man, when time comes to sell he Knows the top market price.
IDK whether he typically sends them out for the needed Luthier work, first.

Elderly has a number of As Is sales.. just what they say..

[Glassweb]

no tailpiece cover, no pick guard and clamp, serious dings, scratches etc... i think you lads are overreaching with your prices. and while some folks think a Virzi adds to the desirability of a Gibson oval hole i'm not in that camp. as Shaun pointed out, pretty nice Loar era F4's are SELLING for around 7K. hard to tell, but from what i see it should be a 4K mandolin as is...

[mandotool]

no tailpiece cover, no pick guard and clamp, serious dings, scratches etc... i think you lads are overreaching with your prices. and while some folks think a Virzi adds to the desirability of a Gibson oval hole i'm not in that camp. as Shaun pointed out, pretty nice Loar era F4's are SELLING for around 7K. hard to tell, but from what i see it should be a 4K mandolin as is...

pretty nice Loar era F4's are for around 7K.??
please do tell..

[mrmando]

Yes, if we're talking about "as-is" condition, then somewhere between $4K and $5K barring any structural issues. Still haven't seen the case. However, fixing it up with a period pickguard and TPC might add some value.

Having a Virzi makes it more desirable to the small number of people who want a Virzi, even if Glassweb is not among them. There are more snakehead A4s out there without Virzis than with, so if you want one without a Virzi, you shouldn't have too hard of a time tracking it down.

As for comparison to F4s -- I'll bet there are fewer snakehead A4s to be had than Loar-period F4s. One pro player I know has retired his F4 in favor of his snakehead A4.

To answer Bob's question, Lowell Levinger generally has stuff restored/repaired/set up before he sells it. I don't very often see "as is" listings on his site.

[Glassweb]

pretty nice Loar era F4's are for around 7K.??
please do tell..

I know of at least two 23'-24' F4's that have sold for under $7,500 in the last few months. What this A4 does have going for it is that it's "unrestored" and "unknown" to the market. I'd prefer to buy this mandolin for an "as-is" price and then have the resto work done by a luthier of my own choice.

[Bob Clark]

For comparison, have a look at the 1924 Snakehead A4 that Vintage Instruments has on their web (#23 on their mandolin listing) for $6,500. It has the tailpiece cover and pickguard, and it's a Virzi model. Here's their URL http://www.vintage-instruments.com
By the way, NFI. Just seems like one to compare this one to.

Nice find, good luck with it. Don't sell it...Play it!!!

[mrmando]

The one at Vintage Instruments has a repaired top crack and is priced accordingly. Here it be. If that is a birch back, it's some seriously figured birch.

http://www.vintage-instruments.com/photos/27656z.jpg

[Glassweb]

This one has been on the list for a long time. What an instrument's asking price is is... well, what it is! The selling prices are what really determine a market in the end...

[barney 59]

My experience at music stores is that the asking price is just that, an asking price. They can always sell below the asking price but it's much more difficult to go the other way. Hang tags are almost meaningless. If you pull a roll of cash out of your pocket the price can drop dramatically! If you are lucky enough to catch a new arrival before it's hit the books you can do real well! So if your are looking for something you should talk to your friendly neighborhood vintage instrument dealer so he can call you if he happens upon one. Consigned instruments can be much more difficult, you can make an offer but they probably have to confer back to the owner for approval. These days you can find any number of paddle head A4's for well below $2500 (almost any year). Those snakeheads fetch a premium, people like them so the headstock design alone is worth maybe + $1500 to $2000, That can also apply even to an A jr. The Virzi is pretty rare and might excite a collector even if it's in less than excellent condition but even so I think 7k is a huge stretch and if your NOT a music store you could have a long wait trying to get $5000.

[mrmando]

At no time has anyone suggested that tmarks1056's mandolin is worth $7K.