Re-graduated Ricky Skaggs Distressed Master Model at Gruhn's

[G. Fisher]

I thought the Skaggs DMM'S were suppose to be the best of the DMM's. I wouldn't think it would need to be re-worked being only 5 years old.

[Mike Snyder]

Mandolin players do some silly things. I went as far as talking to a luthier about a regrad on mine. Luckily he was a good guy but blunt about how dumb that would be. Mine blossomed greatly just after I got my head back on straight. Maybe this guy couldn't wait?

P.S.- Mine is NOT a MM.

[Kerry Krishna]

Mike is totally right. Doing work like this before the axe is broken in could be totally disastrous tone wise (though this is not exactly what he said,,,). Instead, the owner should have played it a few thousand hours, like the rest of us do, and put a Tonerite on it for a few weeks. OR he just should have sold it.
I know of someone who talked a Luthier into redoing all the top braces on a 9 month old Collings rosewood dread because he just could not wait. The guitar now sounds like no other Collings on the planet, which is not a good thing. He was still planning on selling it too, and did not agree with me about transparency in telling potential buyers about the work he had had done to it. This is deceptive and dishonest both.
At least the owner of the mandolin told Gruen about it.

[pjlama]

As far as I know I wasn't done because it was tight but it just wasn't right according to the original owner. You think if it was a simple matter of breaking in which a DMM should be to some degree Randy would have refused to do the work. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers but I ordered one of the original RSDMM's and sent it back because it wasn't tight it just wasn't very good. I've played plenty of new mandolins that may have been green but give a clear indication of what's to come. No amount of breaking in is gonna make an ok mandolin great.

[dcoventry]

As far as I know I wasn't done because it was tight but it just wasn't right according to the original owner. You think if it was a simple matter of breaking in which a DMM should be to some degree Randy would have refused to do the work. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers but I ordered one of the original RSDMM's and sent it back because it wasn't tight it just wasn't very good. I've played plenty of new mandolins that may have been green but give a clear indication of what's to come. No amount of breaking in is gonna make an ok mandolin great.

Now that right there is a fascinating bit of commentary. I trust PJ's opinions more than most; he's got some miles and a bit of skin in the game. Soooooooo, the "top o' the heap" RSDMM was only OK you say? Again, fascinating. Goes to show, great mandos are not formula driven. Every piece of wood has to be worked to it's own perfection.

I love this stuff.

[pjlama]

I sincerely don't want to get one of these hot threads going but that's my experience and perspective. Anyway, I know the owner or original owner of this mando and got the story from him. This is a guy while neurotic like many of us has a lot of experience with high end instruments and one of his favorites was a very good MM. He just wanted an RSDMM and he wanted it to sound good. AFAIK it was reworked a few years into it's life. One of the best mandos to pass through my hands was an MM so I don't have a bias for or against MM's. Even the best builders don't hit a homerun every time they step to the plate no matter who they are, the really good ones just have a better batting average.

[dcoventry]

Even the best builders don't hit a homerun every time they step to the plate no matter who they are, the really good ones just have a better batting average.

That's the stuff right there.

[almeriastrings]

For the record... I also played a 5-year-old RSDMM and while I thought it was certainly a very good mandolin, I chose a new, post-flood Fern over it. The Fern just had more of everything. I was kind of expecting to be absolutely amazed by the DMM... and while it was far from bad (!) I really felt for the price it should have been totally jaw-dropping. I've only ever managed to get to play one (unfortunately) so this is hardly a definitive result. I was quite ready to buy it if it had lived up to expectations, however. As it was, I got a stunning Dave Harvey post-flood Fern (which keeps on getting even better) and I don't regret the choice for one second.

That said... taking the gouges to one seems a bit extreme.... obviously that cannot have satisfied the original owner either, or it would not now be for sale....

[pjlama]

Money can't buy you love ;)

[Stephen Perry]

I've seen more than one unsalable high-end modern Italian violin opened up and graduated or barred. Some just don't run and show no signs of being able to break in adequately! Sometimes a tool just won't sharpen. Of course, I doubt there was a disclaimer provided with those upon sale. Didn't happen in my shop.

[cobraman428]

Money can't buy you love ;)

Give me alot of money and I'll figure out the love part !!!!!

[G. Fisher]

I don't know the market value of a Skaggs DMM. Is this lower than one that hasn't had extensive work done?

[pjlama]

Seems that Gruhns and the owner do. I think it should be higher, Randy has been in plenty of mandolins and he hasn't killed one we know of. I heard what this one was going to be sold for while back and thought it sounded cheap. Somebody should call Walter or go play it and see if it's any good. I'm curious but was told it was quite strong after the work. I'm happy to be in remission otherwise an under priced DMM would be tempting.

[hank]

If your searching for the audio and tactile qualities of tone and response forget your eyes and the mental implications of marketing. Approach each mandolin as an individual effort no matter what the cost, who made it and no matter how much bling has been added or removed(distressing). All the mental concepts(Varnish over Lacquer, specific wood choices, etc.)are only that generalities and fragments of the whole instrument far from the reality of it's ability to wake up and vibrate. This new regraduated top of the line Gibsons for sale is just a top end example of what many of us have done to a lesser extent(bridge changes, tail piece, etc.) on the instruments we purchased and were not satisfied with after playing a better one. Bottom line is we all fall victim to advertising hype and eye candy when buying no matter of price range. The more you can leave your mind of concepts and generalities out of it and rely on your fingers and ears the more likely you will be satisfied with your purchase.

[Willie Poole]

I guess Gibson has a standard to which they try to build their mandolins to but I try to buy from a builder that is also a player, he can tweak it to the sound that he wants before putting it out on the market...I always thought that ALL MM were carved the same no matter who endorsed it but I guess each one is different and not just the inlays etc....

Does Ricky even play a RSDMM? I wonder?

Willie

[G. Fisher]

Pj, you mentioned it's under priced. What would you expect the price to be?

Wille, I overheard Ricky at Wintergrass say that there were 10 Skaggs DMM'S made so far and that he has 5 of them. He was playing one that weekend.

[f5loar]

This is why I miss ole Lloyd at the Gibson factory. He would have tapped that RSDMM with his acoustically engineering ear before it was finished and told the luthier to just shave another 1/32 of inch right here and right here and then it would warrant his signature. I'm surprised anyone would have mentioned this one being "redone" in the first place. How would you know unless you were told? And 2nd, even after it was done the owner didn't want to keep it does not sound like a high end mandolin you would want to buy. As the little guy with the German helmet and wire rimmed glasses on "Laugh-In" said "very interesting....."

[G. Fisher]

I think full disclosure is the right thing to do. Also, maybe there are signs of work having been done. I had Randy re-work an old Km1500 axd there were a few places that you could tell the back had been off.

[mtucker]

This is why I miss ole Lloyd at the Gibson factory. He would have tapped that RSDMM with his acoustically engineering ear before it was finished and told the luthier to just shave another 1/32 of inch right here and right here and then it would warrant his signature.
slightly off topic but somewhat relevant ...in your estimation, how many original Loars have been re-graduated in the the last 20-30 years? I'm guessing several, but only know of one in particular, and another in which the luthier would not comply with the owner's request...

[pjlama]

Pj, you mentioned it's under priced. What would you expect the price to be?

Wille, I overheard Ricky at Wintergrass say that there were 10 Skaggs DMM'S made so far and that he has 5 of them. He was playing one that weekend.

Not sure but you see MM's for 10.5 - 12.5 so a DMM and a limited one would be at least 14 maybe 16 even. The irony of Ricky having half the RSDMM's is pretty funny. Imagine that Gibson is giving him the mandolins and the association is to help sell them but so far they've given half their 20k mandos to the artist, I'd say this whole RSDMM thing is a big money pit for for Henry. I guess for people trying to figure out Gibsons current price structure on mandolins here's a clue as to whats being paid for... If you think he's paying a dime for those mandolins put down the pipe.

[pjlama]

I guess Gibson has a standard to which they try to build their mandolins to but I try to buy from a builder that is also a player, he can tweak it to the sound that he wants before putting it out on the market...I always thought that ALL MM were carved the same no matter who endorsed it but I guess each one is different and not just the inlays etc....

Does Ricky even play a RSDMM? I wonder?

Willie

In all fairness the reports on what Dave Harvey is up to are very promising.

[sgarrity]

FWIW....there have been about 30 RSDMMs made so far. Maybe a few more. As for the price......it's priced to move. The last one they sold for $13k and it lasted less than a week.

BTW....I've heard sound clips of this mando and it's the real deal.

[G. Fisher]

According to what Ricky was saying there was suppose to be total of 30 but because of the flood there are only 10 so far. He also said he didn't know if there would be anymore made.

I found this info on the Skaggs DMM : http://www.rickyskaggs.com/index.htm?inc=5&news_id=13882

[norm351]

Willie, have you ever heard Danny Roberts form Gibson play, the guy ain't bad, there is a video on you tube, a tour of the Gibson Showcase, check it out...

[sgarrity]

I think Ricky is mistaken. The Mandolin Store sold #28 earlier this year. I guess someone should ask Dave Harvey if you want a definitive answer on the number made.

[G. Fisher]

You could be right Shaun. We know that mandolin players aren't always so good with numbers.:)

[Bernie Daniel]

I sincerely don't want to get one of these hot threads going but that's my experience and perspective. Anyway, I know the owner or original owner of this mando and got the story from him. This is a guy while neurotic like many of us has a lot of experience with high end instruments and one of his favorites was a very good MM. He just wanted an RSDMM and he wanted it to sound good. AFAIK it was reworked a few years into it's life. One of the best mandos to pass through my hands was an MM so I don't have a bias for or against MM's. Even the best builders don't hit a homerun every time they step to the plate no matter who they are, the really good ones just have a better batting average.

Interesting! An owner has a right to do what he wants to with his mandolin -- the big question I have though is how did it sound once Randy W did his thing on it?

Ya gotta wonder what he could do a priori because (supposedly) anyway the mando came from Gibson carved to Loar specs? How did it turn out?

[Bernie Daniel]

Money can't buy you love ;)

...or home-grown tomatoes.

[Wilbur James]

Since Mr. wood regraduated the top, doesn't the mandolin become a randy wood mandolin since the top is the main voice in the mandolin? who knows it could end up being a highly sought after mandolin as the years change its voice and presence, this is all very interesting considering the reputation of the distressed master models, I wouldn't mind having one myself, maybe regraduating the top gives it further distressing?

[dang]

If only randy would have hippie sanded it and baked it in the oven... then the instrument would have some serious provenance!

[BradKlein]

Without playing the instrument, who knows if they'd like it or not? But it's a very reasonable price and backed by Gruhn. At least some of the RSDMM are very very good instruments, and this one's been worked on by a luthier who holds an important place in the history of american fretted instruments. Who wouldn't enjoy taking this one for a test drive?!?!

I've listened to Ricky play one of his in the studio, passing mandolins around with Andy Statman. It sounded great to me - different from Andy's Kimble - both great mandolins. I gathered that Ricky chose his from several when he went to sign labels. I didn't ask him what he paid for it.

[f5loar]

I guess nothing like having "first grabs" at the best DMM Gibson made and sounds like Ricky got him 5 of the best of the best. Did he get all 5 free? I doubt it. Even Gibson Co. has their limits. Probably the first one was on the house and the others at cost. Ricky can well afford cost on those. The necks are different on these than the regular DMM and the two I played I didn't much care for the neck feel. I'm pretty sure they made more than 10 too. Maybe there was 10 of them on top of the table ready to be signed before the flood came and they dried them out and signed them after the flood.

[almeriastrings]

If your searching for the audio and tactile qualities of tone and response forget your eyes and the mental implications of marketing. Approach each mandolin as an individual effort no matter what the cost, who made it and no matter how much bling has been added or removed(distressing). All the mental concepts(Varnish over Lacquer, specific wood choices, etc.)are only that generalities and fragments of the whole instrument far from the reality of it's ability to wake up and vibrate.... The more you can leave your mind of concepts and generalities out of it and rely on your fingers and ears the more likely you will be satisfied with your purchase.

I entirely agree with the above. I think we all, to some extent, have these concepts "in our heads" at various times, but it can be highly misleading. On top of that, there is the added nuance of individual preference. "Fingers and ears" are a far better judge, ultimately, of what will satisfy over a spec sheet.

On the matter of red spruce, I like old red spruce a lot. This applies to both guitars and mandolins. I am not so keen on new red spruce.... I had Martin custom build an OM-42 with a red spruce top just over 10 years ago, and it has taken since then for it to really come into its own. That is with very regular playing, too. Mandolins can take even longer. For more rapid gratification I'm quite happy with sitka or englemann..... it is also somewhat of an open question as to precisely what was used on some prewar and early post-war instruments. There are some odd ones out there, and getting an accurate ID is very difficult. From what I have heard, this may well apply to some of the early Ferns, too.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

A bit more from Ricky on these.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU9zIuSifnI

[justinhart]

Excellent video. I enjoy hearing not just about the mandolin, but also how Mr. Skaggs got started into music.

[mandobassman]

Excellent video. I enjoy hearing not just about the mandolin, but also how Mr. Skaggs got started into music.

Interesting right up to the part that had nothing to do with the question that was asked. When asked about the instrument that he was playing he talked for 7 minutes straight, 4 minutes of which he talked about his new CD.

[justinhart]

Interesting right up to the part that had nothing to do with the question that was asked. When asked about the instrument that he was playing he talked for 7 minutes straight, 4 minutes of which he talked about his new CD.

I did notice that, and although I didn't mind, if I had asked the question about the instrument I definitely would have.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I enjoy whenever I find accomplished and talented artists such as Ricky or even Thile get geeky about their instruments. I'm a geek, so it makes me feel better. There was a video on youtube awhile back where Thile walk giving an interview in a theater, and he talked about his mandolin alot. But it was removed and I haven't found it again yet.