1917 Gibson A

[mandoodler]

So, I'm in the market for a new mandolin, but can't quite swing a nice F model. This (http://bernunzio.com/product/gibson-a-73/#) Gibson A popped up in the Classifieds, and looks like a good buy, but I have to admit I don't know a whole lot about vintage Gibsons. Can anyone offer any insight into the sound/volume I can expect? Thanks!

[Tim2723]

Maybe it's just a trick of the picture or my eyes, but I'm not crazy about the look of that top. Anybody else think that looks sunken?

[Dave Hanson]

It's impossible to tell if the top is sunken from those pictures, you can plainly see it's a three piece top though, my own 1917 A has some slight sinkage but it's been stable as long as I've had it, which is 7 years, it plays and sounds superb.

The only way to judge it is to hold it in your hands and play it.

Dave H

[journeybear]

My 1917 A may not be perfect, but it plays and sounds great, with a full, resonant sound and plenty of volume if needed. It is deeper and boomier than F models, generally speaking, so be sure that sound is what you want. (It is, for me.) I have some questions about this one. The finish looks mottled and crazed, which may mean it has been in an attic or some other high heat environment for some time. FWIW, supposedly the brown finish started in 1918. FWIW. I have never seen a three-piece top before, not sure what that gets you; surely helps the builder use up some smaller pieces of wood, though. ;) Looks like mine is a one-piece, or a really good job of matching two. I agree it's hard to tell whether the top has sunken - if the second-to-last pic had been taken from a slightly different angle ... but it wasn't. Other than a few dings and scrapes, it looks pretty good, and cosmetic concerns may be irrelevant to its playability and sound production. The price is in the ball park, maybe a tad high, but not out of reason. You may want to call Bernunzio with any concerns.

[brunello97]

I have a '16A which plays like olive oil and sounds awesome. The price on yours is surprisingly good for Bernunzio, but I guess they have a sale going on. It could also have issues. Those pictures are inconclusive, but the top looks dicey. I'd ask for more specific images of the top and bridge area before purchasing if you can't try it out beforehand. If it is in good shape, my hunch is that you'll love it and your F dreams will subside.

If you want to chop get a mandolin. Here's a vintage 'whiteface' '92, I believe.

Mick

[mandoodler]

It's impossible to tell if the top is sunken from those pictures, you can plainly see it's a three piece top though, my own 1917 A has some slight sinkage but it's been stable as long as I've had it, which is 7 years, it plays and sounds superb.

The only way to judge it is to hold it in your hands and play it.

Dave H

Well, therein lies the problem, it's about 7 hours away. Would the 3-piece top offer any undesirable structural/tonal characteristics? There is an approval period, so I'm thinking of jumping on it. From what I've read, they're quality instruments with a sound/playability that would fit my style, but would hate to be out on the shipping charges

[Tim2723]

Well, there's the rub. Accepting the risk of spending a few dollars to find out is often the cost of dealing in vintage instruments. One must also be careful not to fall victim to the Stradivarius Complex. One cannot assume that because it's old it must be better. Never forget that every guy who has spent thousands to restore an old instrument defends it as a masterpiece even if it sounds like a brick with strings on it. In my experience 99.999% of all old instruments are simply that: Old, worn out, decrepit things that should have been on the fire long ago. We can all point to shining examples of glorious old instruments, but they represent only the tiniest fraction of all those that exist.

[journeybear]

Ouch! :disbelief: My baby heard what you said and you really hurt her feelings. :crying: She says she can kick your Ovation's butt all over the bar. :mad: I'm telling her it's not ladylike to talk like that.

It's true, though - YMMV. Approach with caution. I am well aware I lucked out with mine, and buying it off of ebay required a tremendous leap of faith, one that was fortunately rewarded. I have heard only good-sounding instruments from that long ago, but these are the ones that have been kept in good condition by previous and current owners, are surely a fraction of the existing instruments and thus may not represent the majority, and most importantly, are an even smaller fraction, being the few I have encountered. The far-and-away best way to determine an instrument's quality is in person. That said, keep an eye on ebay as well - see what the market is offering at the moment, in terms of price and quality. Good luck! :mandosmiley:

[Tim2723]

Yeah, please don't take my post the wrong way. It's just a cautionary statement. What I call the Stradivarius Complex is that attitude that everything old is automatically superior. FP's comment about well-kept instruments is the key. The Stradivari are cherished because of a lot of reasons, not just their age. They started out as brilliant instruments, were lovingly cared for, expertly maintained, and played by some of the best musicians. I can't tell you how many disappointed people wandered into the music store with great-grandfather's violin, only to find out it was a cheap Hungarian import worth less than the repair bill, despite it saying Stradivarius on the label.

And when I say 99.999% of all instruments I mean ALL instruments. We could fill the Grand Canyon with those little plastic recorders alone.

The point is that just because it's a Gibson from 1917 doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be right for you. Shop carefully, and good luck!

[allenhopkins]

I'm in Rochester; wouldya want me to slide by Bernunzio's and share my impression of the A with ya?

[jaycat]

. . . In my experience 99.999% of all old instruments are simply that: Old, worn out, decrepit things that should have been on the fire long ago.

And 99.999% of all new instruments are simply that: new, i.e. characterless, yet to open up, thrown together by cheap labor and should go on the fire immediately!

[brunello97]

I'm in Rochester; wouldya want me to slide by Bernunzio's and share my impression of the A with ya?

Allen, you are an awesome man. I was going to pop off about the 99.999% comment (so you've played 100,000 old instruments?) but your generosity calmed me down. If you do go check it out let us know.

Mick

[Brutus1999]

I have a 1917 Gibson A and the sound is amazingly beautiful for everything but REALLY, REALLY FAST JAZZ or bluegrass or music where you do NOT want too much sustain, especially in the lower notes, because the sound is "too rich" and not as "clear" as a well-made, WELL-PLAYED, F-hole. You can dampen the sustain a bit on round hole mandos too, by the way...

But this all tells you nothing about that particular mandolin...hopefully a h can give you a hands-on evaluation that will settle the matter. Always remember that if you "miss a deal" (especially from a dealer), the odds are that an "almost as good" deal will pop up again............

[Tim2723]

And 99.999% of all new instruments are simply that: new, i.e. characterless, yet to open up, thrown together by cheap labor and should go on the fire immediately!

I don't necessarily I disagree with that, but I'm not sure it has anything to do with my point. When new instruments become old and decrepit, then maybe.

Guys, don't mistake my comment for more than it says. The vast majority of musical instruments in the world never survive, and not all that do are necessarily worth saving nor are they automatically better because of their age.

[Jim Garber]

Mandoodler: Bernunzio is a very respected dealer. I am certain that he has an approval period. Those top pictures have reflections in them which might look like irregularities in the top. I am sure that if you cann they can give you an in hand report and answer any questions.

That is great that Allen offered to take a test drive for you. He has much experience and can give you a good perspective on how it compares to other Gibsons.

You have never played a vintage Gibson? I assume you have not been in the mandolin scene all that long?

[John Rosett]

Having owned a couple of teens Gibsons over the years, and played many more, I'd have to say that most of them that have survived for 90 to 100 years will probably survive for many more, with proper care. I have seen a lot of these mandolins with three (and sometimes four) piece tops. They made thousands of those A mandolins in the teens and early twenties, and like anything else, some are wonderful, and some of them aren't.

[mandoodler]

Thanks for the responses, everyone, and i apologize for my absence in the discussion. Allen, that'd be a big help, but please, if it's too much trouble, don't go out of your way on my account.

Jim, I've been playing for a few years, but can't really say I've been part of the scene, and have never been fortunate enough to play even a new Gibson (my local shop is pretty lacking in its selection of anything that isn't a guitar).


This thread's given me some great information about the instrument. Thanks so much everyone!

[Jim Garber]

That is funny! I have never played a new Gibson, just the vintage ones but I have played some of the best.

[brunello97]

Thanks for the responses, everyone, and i apologize for my absence in the discussion. Allen, that'd be a big help, but please, if it's too much trouble, don't go out of your way on my account.

Jim, I've been playing for a few years, but can't really say I've been part of the scene, and have never been fortunate enough to play even a new Gibson (my local shop is pretty lacking in its selection of anything that isn't a guitar).


This thread's given me some great information about the instrument. Thanks so much everyone!

My hunch is that Allen would enjoy just such a thing. ;) The whole "Stradivarius Complex" thing is a total red herring here. Kind of annoying, actually. Nobody is making broad claims about "old vs new" instruments in this thread to provoke such unnecessary quibbling. What's the point? It's a '17 Gibson A not a plastic Grand Canyon goat whistle. And certainly appears worth a drive across town and a few emails to check out if it still has it. My only worry is that Allen will find something else that HE wants to buy…

Mick

[Tim2723]

You're right Mick, the "Stradivarius Complex" thing ended up as a red herring, but I didn't intend it that way, and it became annoying. I really didn't think anyone would disagree to any extent. Sorry I mentioned it now. It seemed like something valuable to say at the time and all my subsequent posts were to apologize for saying it in the first place. It was really just an aside comment. Everybody forget it, OK?

[Vernon Hughes]

Three piece tops with really wide grain are the boss..Everyone i've had has been a hoss..The tight grain ones just plain sound thick and tinny.Just my observation,and I've played a lot of them.

[brunello97]

No worries, Tim ;) Thanks.

VHughes, I am with you on the wide grain on these 'teens Gibsons. Mine is like a pair of '70s corduroy slacks. I thought the prevailing wisdom was always about super tight grain being superior but this era of Gibsons seems to belie that. There are obviously more variables than that alone (relative stiffiness, I suppose is key.) I know it has been talked about over in the builder's section. I should search through some of those conversations.

The multi-piece top should be fine, though I think Tim is right to be at least concerned about top flattening, given the photos. Even that can be a tricky thing to call. I think mine is flattened out some, but no one else does. If all is good, this might be a nicely priced mandolin. Bernunzio's seem like square shooters. Their 'truth in advertising' helped get me out of a muy sketchioso mando purchase of my own about a year or so ago.

Mick

[allenhopkins]

Well, finally got off m'butt and tried the 1917 A at Bernunzio's. Liked it, though didn't love it. Felt very characteristic of a pre-truss rod Gibby, with a deep neck, nice action. Didn't sound as "tubby" as some old G oval-holes I've played, quite clear and strong treble, plenty of volume (strung with D'Addarios, not sure what gauge).

Straight neck, and original pickguard, tuners and tailpiece, which John B emphasized as adding to the value. Didn't see the case. Excellent overall condition for its age; didn't notice any top sinkage. The three-piece top is a bit unusual, but other than that seemed to be a good representative of 'teens Gibson A-models.

Marked down to $1150, it's not a "steal," but not a bad price. Don't think I'd have paid the original $1450 for it, but wouldn't have any trouble paying $1K or a bit more.

Of course, I only played it for about 15 minutes, and I'm not averse to "clubby" necks and fewer frets to the body. Others don't care for those things as much. Were I doing a lot of old-time or Celtic, or general-purpose non-bluegrass, I'd be pleased to own this one.