Why aren't Gibson A-00 mandolins good for bluegrass? [Archive]

JEStanek

Jun-01-2012, 12:30pm

Most trad grassers seem to say so either outright or through looks and shrugs about A shaped oval hole mandolins. Mostly, because Bill Monroe played an F shaped ff holed mandolin and the ff holes give more of a projected, short sustained sound associated with bluegrass music. Andy Statman played bluegrass (very well I'll add) for years on a Gobson oval holed mandolin. It can be done but it isn't what folks expect. Expectations often drive perceptions of outcome.

Jamie

Timmando

Jun-01-2012, 12:38pm

Does it have anything to do with the scale length? Is the scale length shorter which prevents doing chords up the neck?

lenf12

Jun-01-2012, 12:39pm

Given that the A-00 was first introduced as an oval hole mandolin then transitioned to the f-hole configuration, I would say that the BG police frown on it because of the A shape AND the fact that it has the shorter 10 fret neck. The A-5 has the longer 15 fret neck so it probably doesn't get as many disapproving looks from the BGPD. The scale length is exactly the same but the bridge placement is closer to the tailpiece with the 10 fret neck and nearer the middle of the top with a 15fret neck. The longer neck also provides more playing space up the neck.

My 2 cents,
Len B.
Clearwater, FL

f5loar

Jun-01-2012, 12:50pm

I think OP needs to specify if he means the oval hole or F hole version. The F hole version is equal to the A40/A50 models and those have been making bluegrass music for over 75 years.

Timmando

Jun-01-2012, 12:51pm

I mean the F-hole version. Does the shorter neck scale mean there is more space between the frets compared to the longer neck? And does anyone know if the tops on these were adirondack spruce?

JeffD

Jun-01-2012, 12:57pm

I have read that the A00 is not good for bluegrass...why?

I have no idea what the writer of something like that would be getting at. They aren't "traditional"? They have some perceived limitation? The BG police will fine you?"

I don't know of any reason why they are not good for bluegrass.

Timmando

Jun-01-2012, 1:03pm

lenf12

Jun-01-2012, 1:09pm

For one thing, the OP should understand that the scale length is exactly the same (13.75 inches) whether the neck is shorter or longer. The only thing it really affects is where the bridge is placed on the mandolin top, closer to the tailpiece for the shorter neck and closer to the middle of the top for the longer neck. There will be more frets that are easily reached with the longer neck but the spaces between frets are exactly the same. I don't know for sure what kind of spruce they used. It may have been Adirondack red or ............?

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

journeybear

Jun-01-2012, 1:25pm

My 1935 A-00 has a couple of cracks in the back, and that back is flat to begin with, so it is no show piece regardless of its provenance (considerable). But its funky ratty old-time (not old-timey) sound was just fine for the music I was playing in the seasonal Cajun-country-bluegrass band. Now, I have never taken it to a festival so I can only imagine what scorn this oval hole A model would get. But I do think (as has been mentioned) there is something about f-holes that bluegrassers prefer, regardless of body style.

That said, I think most mandolins can be played to sound like authentic bluegrass instruments if one knows what one is doing. I do a couple numbers nearly every week on my old plain A and it sounds pretty real to me. It sounds like you ran into some pretty backward-thinking or conservative-minded opinions there. Used to be a lot of progressive picking in bluegrass in the 70s and 80s; hope that hasn't fallen by the wayside. Keeping traditions alive is one thing; stomping on progress or denying acceptance to non-traditional approaches is another. Someone from the BGPD must be overstepping his bounds.

87318

Timmando

Jun-01-2012, 1:45pm

Thanks for the input folks. This was kind of an emergency post because I found an a00 on ebay that I was interested in and the auction was going into the last few minutes as you were all responding. I have a regular scroll mandolin, but last weekend at the florida folk fest I played an a1 gibson that looked and sounded great...very vintage sounding. So I was bidding on this a00 and just won it...the last 10 seconds it went from $455 almost to my max bid. I finally got it for $613...which seems like a good price when I see this mando for over 1K at dealers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200766537646

lenf12

Jun-01-2012, 2:13pm

You done good Timmando!! ;-) A vintage Gibson A00 for $613 delivered to your door. Congratulations!! My friends (Gypsy Wind) played at the Florida Folk Festival last weekend and had a great time. Glad you enjoyed it too and have fun with that new old A00.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

Timmando

Jun-01-2012, 3:06pm

Thanks Len...I wonder if I picked with a fiddle player from Gypsy Wind at FFF...she did alot of gypsy type breaks in a bluegrass jam. I forget her name, black hair, kind of whimsical...gypsyish if that is a word!

I'm wondering if that is an adirondack red spruce top. In the guitar world a wide grain like that is thought to be red spruce. I have seen other gibsons from this timeframe that supposedly have a red spruce top...I hope this is because that will help the sound. Here is where I saw the reference to the red spruce top...same year 1936, same mando...already sold...

http://www.vintagemandolin.com/36gibsona00_876b-6.html

And here is a 1938, same reference to red spruce top...

http://www.vintagemandolin.com/38gibsona00_eg6072.html

lenf12

Jun-01-2012, 3:33pm

I've seen them play with a couple of male fiddlers, but not with a female so who knows. Their mando player is Mark Robertson-Tessi who is a member of this forum and contributes some excellent posts. I take mando lessons with their guitar/banjo player Mike Godwin. Congrats again and please let us know how you like your new (old) A00 after you receive it.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

JeffD

Jun-01-2012, 4:05pm

Jeff...that is my question...why would someone think that or ask that....I am trying to find out...

See post #4 here

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?68776-30-s-gibson-a00&highlight=gibson+a00

I'll say what I thought I meant I said. :)

There is absolutely no substantive reason why an A-00 cannot be used very effectively for bluegrass. The reasons some folks may object might be they think that only an F5 will do because that is what Bill did, in which case they would be wrong, or they think that only F5s have been used on professional bluegrass, in which case that would be wrong, or they think that there is some accoustic or playability feature of the A-00 that prevents it from excelling at bluegrass, in which case they would be wrong.

So as to which reason why they think it, I dunno, but what ever it is, they would be wrong.

journeybear

Jun-01-2012, 6:29pm

Bear in mind that what Jeff says is surely tainted by his being more flexible than bluegrass purists, or whoever those narrow-minded people are raising objections to your A-00. After all, he has admitted to occasionally playing bluegrass on a (gasp!) bowlback! :disbelief: But I'm with him on this, and still aver that the way you play whatever you are playing factors into how it will work. And those who are unable to differentiate between what an instrument looks like and what it sounds like, and put too much faith in the former and not enough in the latter, well, they are wrong.

allenhopkins

Jun-02-2012, 12:04pm

I have read that the A00 is not good for bluegrass...why?

Opinions are never lacking among bluegrass folks. There tends to be a sorta "dogma," for want of a better word, about what is and isn't acceptable. If you have a good-quality mandolin, with f-holes so that you can produce the "bark" sound when you "chop" off-beat chords, and enough guts to be heard through the din of banjo and guitar, you should be fine.

Red Rector, highly respected bluegrass player, did most of his work on an oval-hole A-4. Even Monroe, whose Lloyd Loar F-5 is the template of bluegrass mandolins, played other instruments (including an Epiphone) before he got the Loar, or when it was in the shop.

The F-model silhouette is indelibly associated with bluegrass, and nothing will change that, at least in the foreseeable future. But there are lots of wonderful mandolins around that aren't F-5's, or clones thereof. Take the A-00 out to jams or whatever, play it, and see how it works. Don't be limited by others' opinions of what is or isn't "bluegrass."

Hell, take your harmonica along too, and really cause a dust-up...

benbonewilly

Jun-02-2012, 9:34pm

Didn't/Doesn't Red Rector use an A style mandolin with an oval sound-hole to great effect?

dustyamps

Jun-02-2012, 10:56pm

My 34 A-00 with an oval sound hole does not project and resonate like my other A models... and I believe it's because they are structurally different. The A-00's flat, 2 piece mahogany back with a brace will project different from an A models carved back. The other difference is in the bridge. My A-00 has a very short bridge making the string angle over the bridge real shallow compared to an A Model with a much taller bridge.

journeybear

Jun-03-2012, 12:53am

Well, obviously, one of those issues is pretty easily addressed. Is that the bridge it came with? I have an adjustable bridge on mine, and while it is set all the way down so the action is low, it still projects OK. It does have f holes, and while I wouldn't say it has a whole lot of bark or bite (after all, I am a cat person), it projects OK. It just sounds thin, which I think is due to the flat (and cracked) back and the woods used.

OldGus

Jun-03-2012, 7:18am

I think this is an A00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8UCCU1mf00. Doesn't seem real loud but sounds sweet and bright to me. I'd say you got a good deal and probably a great player. Notice the simulated clicks in the video. If you play it on stage you could tap a microphone with a cupped hand while the other people a soloing to simulate chop chords.

Bill Snyder

Jun-03-2012, 8:09am

... (after all, I am a cat person), ...

Ahh, that explains a lot.
Just joking Steve. ;)

journeybear

Jun-03-2012, 8:40am

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journeybear

Jun-03-2012, 9:17am

From this website: (http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson8.html#a00)

Model: A-00 Mandolin
Available: 1933 to 1943

1933 A-00 specs:
Symmetrical body, oval sound hole, carved top, flat black, non-adjustable ebony bridge, pickguard glued to top, bound top, ebony fingerboard, dot inlays, "The Gibson" peghead logo, brown sunburst finish.
1934 A-00 specs:
"F" holes, elevated pickguard, clamshell tailpiece, "Gibson" peghead logo.
1936 A-00 specs:
Carved back.
1939 A-00 specs:
Adjustable bridge, single bound top and back, sunburst finish.
A-00 discontinued 1943.

Since the mandolin in that video has binding on the back, if it is an A-00 it would be 1939 or later, with a carved back, and thus a different sound. And dustyamps, yours would be a 1933 with that oval hole. Of course, people more knowledgeable in these matters will be able to tell whether this info is accurate. ;)

Adam Sweet

Jun-03-2012, 9:38am

Generally oval-hole mandolins are quieter than F-hole mandolins. That's a general statement. Of course it depends on the instrument.

journeybear

Jun-03-2012, 9:53am

Well, when you put it that way ... with those qualifiers, it's hard to say much. ;) But I'll say just a bit anyway. :) My 1917 A is a LOT louder than my late lamented mid-70s F-12 ever was, and has a lot fuller and more complex sound, too. Of course, instruments vary, probably no such thing as a definitive example. But the A really booms. It's a banjo killer, and if not killer, then at least it will do some serious damage. My A-00 is an awful lot quieter. I don't know how much difference sound holes make in volume by themselves, but I can see they could be a contributing factor. I think given all these have carved tops, the flat back is a big factor. Anyway, lots of apples and oranges being mixed into this fruit salad. :whistling:

I'm looking forward to a report from the OP when he gets his new baby. :mandosmiley:

Capt. E

Jun-04-2012, 1:35pm

My 1937 A-00 is plenty loud (ff holes and carved back: see evolution of specs above). The shorter scale does have an effect on the tone, but I like it. I have to say that I play old-time mostly, not much bluegrass. Ben at Fiddlers Green, who definitely plays bluegrass, pulled a pretty good sound out of it when he tried it out.

Timmando

Jun-04-2012, 2:49pm

I have a couple questions about the A00 that is being shipped to me. The serial number in the A00 is #368A. Does the 8 stand for august of 1936 or the 8th mando built in 1936? Also, if it is a 1936, it should have a carved back, but the back has a seam that is splitting...do carved backs have seams? Thanks!

lenf12

Jun-04-2012, 3:20pm

Hi again Timmando,

I can't address your serial # questions but someone more knowledgeable will hopefully chime in. 368A sounds like the FON (factory order number) to me, not a serial #. Re: your other questions: carved back and flat back mandolins can have a seam down the middle if they are made of 2 pieces of wood. They can also have a 1 piece back depending on whether there was a piece of wood big enough to make the back. Post a picture of the back when you recieve the mandolin. You may want to post it also on the builders/repair forum to get an opinion of how serious the split may be and whether it may need some professional attention.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

Rush Burkhardt

Jun-04-2012, 4:17pm

As Allen mentioned earlier, Red Rector played, almost exclusively, an oval-holed Gibson A model...here's Red and friends with some classic bluegrass from 1983! Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFW6iYriDQs

Capt. E

Jun-04-2012, 4:45pm

Yes, your number is most probably a FON. My 1937 A-00 is stamped inside on the back 1 2 0 3 0(D?) with a penciled "13" after it. It is probably instrument #13 in the batch.

Timmando

Jun-05-2012, 8:56am

Yes, your number is most probably a FON. My 1937 A-00 is stamped inside on the back 1 2 0 3 0(D?) with a penciled "13" after it. It is probably instrument #13 in the batch.

Capt E...how do you know it is a 1937 A00...any other stamps on yours?

The number on mine 368A seems to identify it as a 1936 model...do you think that is just a coincedence that a FON could have the year in it?

Capt. E

Jun-05-2012, 2:13pm

Check out the following site for some pretty good info in Gibson serial numbers and FON's http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html

The number in my A-00 actually looks like 12030, but according to the FON conventions, the last "digit" is probably a "C" or a "D". If it is a C, then it is a 1937 instrument, if it is a D then it is a 1938 instrument. My dating of my A-00 is based on the info in the above website and info from here on the cafe. Can't prove it, but I generally call it a 1937. It has an unbound, carved back which fits the specs for '37.

Capt. E

Jun-05-2012, 2:20pm

Ok, I just got my A-00 out and looked reeeeeeaaal carefully at the number. It is definitely 1203C followed by a penciled "13".
It is mandolin #13 out of FON 1203C made in 1937. In 1938 the letter ( D that year) was put before the FON.

Timmando

Jun-28-2012, 7:47am

Here are some photos of the A00 that I just received. After new strings, lowered the action, lubed the tuners, she sounds pretty good. Lots of volume on the A and E, more than my Morgan Monroe MDM-2. Nice wide grain on the top, red spruce I presume? According to the serial number info given in a previous reply, the serial number 368A 20 is serial 368, the A stands for year 1935 and the 20 is the 20th built. So this is a 1935, not a 1936 as I thought.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o604/studley1/IMG_1491.jpg
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o604/studley1/IMG_1492.jpg
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o604/studley1/IMG_1475.jpg
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o604/studley1/IMG_1478.jpg

almeriastrings

Jun-28-2012, 8:49am

Very nice.

f5loar

Jun-28-2012, 10:00am

That is correct. the "A" in the FON started in 1935 with B being 1936 and C 1937 ect. It's not the serial no but he FON. Low end models did not carry a serial no. in addtion to the FON, only the FON. I guess you know the bridge is not original. It would have come with a Gibson rosewood adjustable bridge. 368 is batch no. 20 is 20th of that batch in 1935

mandroid

Jun-29-2012, 4:46pm

one difference heel of neck comes up shorter, if you are shifting that 4 finger G chop chord up the neck.

but it has all the notes on the fingerboard .. to play any style of music you want to tackle..

Capt. E

Jun-29-2012, 4:50pm

Beautiful looking instrument. I and continuing to enjoy mineYours looks a lot better than mine which has been played hard over the years, bridge replaced, nut replaced, fret job on 1st 7, etc., I love the sound though.

88584

silverface

Dec-10-2015, 2:49pm

I have a red spruce '34 A-00 with a Tone Gard. It's tremendous for bluegrass as-is, but really smokes when the back is off you're body via the Tone Gard. I also much prefer the wider fretboard of the A-00 to the several F models I've owned. Most mando players I watch rarely play up in the stratospheric frets on an F model except for a few "look at me" licks, so the extended board is really not an attraction. And this sucker is loud, punchy and has much stronger low mids than most of the F's I've encountered, with a wider overall tonal range.

Caveat - I don't play conventional instruments much - my other mando is a Rigel A+ Deluxe, with monster tone and a wide, radiused board with larger frets (I may have the A-00 refretted and the board radiused - I know, I know, heck, I work with a vintage dealer - but I'm never selling it, it'll be willed to my kids! ;-) It's the only bit of fine-tuning I'd really prefer.

The other issue - they were only made for 10 years, the specs changed a few times and most mando players don't even know what the heck they are!

But back to the OP's question - they ARE good for bluegrass if the player can play bluegrass. It's just the traditionalist bluegrass police that whine about A models. Let 'em whine and pay $5,000 for something close (I recently bought my A-00 for $750!)

Mandoplumb

Dec-10-2015, 3:53pm

A true bluegrass purist (which I consider myself to be) is concerned with the music, not the brand or model of the instrument being played. Also opinions are not exclusive to bluegrass people. I have always heard that everyone has one and most of them stink. The people telling you that it won't work for BG are just flat wrong, something else not exclusive to BG people.

MikeEdgerton

Dec-10-2015, 3:56pm

I'm not a purist. One evening a guy joined a jam I was at with a clarinet and took a break on almost every song that was played. Honestly, he kicked ***. It was pretty awesome.

allenhopkins

Dec-10-2015, 5:06pm

We should poke Willie and get him to remind us what is and isn't bluegrass -- from the "trad" perspective, that is.

I'm sure there are off-brand and off-model mandolins which are entirely satisfactory for bluegrass, and examples can be cited of well-respected bluegrass mandolinists who played them. No argument there.

But, go to a bluegrass festival, a concert by a well-known national, regional or local band, or a well-attended jam, and what do you see? You know the answer: Gibson F-models, or other brands of mandolin made to look like Gibson F-models. It's a fact, can't deny it, and whether all these mandolinists are just being "copycats" or not, there is a certain level of mandolin conformity in bluegrass.

And this thread's three years old; doubt things have changed much since '12.

WW52

Dec-10-2015, 6:33pm

I remember in my early playing days when I toted my guitar to local bluegrass jams, often hearing things like, "if you don't play a Marting D-28 you don't have the bluegrass sound," and "if it's not a Gibson, it's not a banjo." That sort of thing turned me away from traditional bluegrass. But away from the local jams I was getting into the Seldom Scene and Grisman.

Capt. E

Dec-11-2015, 11:02am

I have thought for a long time that the mid-30's to early 40's A-00, A-50 and A-1 ff-hole mandolins are bargains. They are very much suitable for bluegrass and any other music you might think of. The short neck is no problem to me. When well set-up, they have great volume and an excellent tone. The instruments made during WWII and shortly after are a bit variable in quality, though from 1946 and into the mid-1960's the A-40 and A-50 models (basically the same instrument as the A-00) were professional grade instruments. As with all vintage instruments, you need to watch condition, but if you want a nice vintage Gibson at a modest price, you don't need to look much further.