New member - 1st post - need help - i.d. "Washington" mandolin

[Earl Kayoss]

Howdy folks!
1st post.
Couldn't find much on this old mandolin I just got at an antique shop in NY.
says "Washington" on the head and that's about all I know about it.
Any info will be dearly appreciated. i will try to upload photos, it'll be my first attempt at that, i hope i dont muck it up. To me, this one has a bit of a strage shape but i know little about mandolins so maybe it is common. I own apprx. 40 guitars and one mandolin. this one. Whatever it is... i dont think its anything fancy but i still just like it for some reason.

Thx so much.

- earl8718287183871848718587186871878718887189871908 7191

[F-2 Dave]

Wow. How strange. I've never seen one shaped just like that before. Wonder how they decided that that was the shape they were going with? Kind of grows on you though. Does it have a shaped case?

[almeriastrings]

That looks to be a really fine instrument. I believe that "Washington" was a brand used by J. W. Jenkins & Co of Kansas City from the late 1880's to the early part of the 20th C. They had instruments made for them by several contractors... they also used other names on them... "Harwood" being one. Look at the headstock of this one, and compare with yours.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?78406-Interesting-Harwood-Mandolin

Some appear to have been made by Regal...others by Larson. I have never seen one identical to your find, however. Someone here may well know more. I think you got a very interesting and beautifully made old mandolin there, though!

[Earl Kayoss]

Thx so much, Gents.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and help me out.
any further insight would be appreciared.

today, i am having new strings put on it. the ones on there now are truly ancient.
it does hold the tuning though and, it plays.

i thought the shape was a bit weird but its quite comfortable to play and it does "grow on you."
its my first mandolin ever aNd i am pleased to own it.
does anyone have any idea of value?
I am totally clueless, sorry for so many questions.

thx again, folks.

- e

[houseworker]

today, i am having new strings put on it. the ones on there now are truly ancient.
it does hold the tuning though and, it plays.

It'll need light gauge strings I would imagine. Bluegrass strings would be far too heavy and risk damaging the top, so be careful.

It's a beautiful looking instrument by the way, really unusual.

[Earl Kayoss]

Thx so much for lookin' out for my old mandolin, houseworker.
i do have light gauge strings ready to go on.
they are made by Gibson.

I think of all the musicians i've ever seen in my entire life,
some of those bluegrass pickers are the best musicians of all, and
thats all genres of music taken into account.

i mean... i sit there and watch them play and i still cant believe what i'm seeing.
just totally amazing musicians.
its so much fun to see them play and hear what they make come out of those mandolins.
amazing.

i paid $40 for this "washington", not knowing anything at all about its true value,
i just felt that to me, it was worth the $40.
was $40 about right on this one?

- e

[Earl Kayoss]

p.s. -
i've written/recorded a song called "Horses" with a mandolin track on it.
if anyone cares to give it a listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXpCxpl3ek&feature=plcp

- e

[houseworker]

Thx so much for lookin' out for my old mandolin, houseworker.
i do have light gauge strings ready to go on.
they are made by Gibson.i paid $40 for this "washington", not knowing anything at all about its true value,
i just felt that to me, it was worth the $40.
was $40 about right on this one?

I suspect those strings are still heavier than is ideal. Hopefully someone with greater expertise will chime in soon.

Certainly an absolute steal at $40!

[Earl Kayoss]

string gauges are indicated as follows (on the outside of the box):

.041w, .025w, .014, .011
and they are "bronze"

[houseworker]

string gauges are indicated as follows (on the outside of the box):

.041w, .025w, .014, .011
and they are "bronze"

I'd hold off on fitting those until one of the experts turns up. They're 'light' strings, but only to a bluegrasser with an archtop instrument.

[MikeEdgerton]

Beleive it or not this isn't the first time this style of mandolin has been posted here. The problem will be finding the old threads. I don't believe we ever giot a whole lot of information on them the last times they popped up. Let me see if I can find some of those threads.

[JeffD]

string gauges are indicated as follows (on the outside of the box):

.041w, .025w, .014, .011
and they are "bronze"

I would not call those light.

Judging from the pictures the instrument looks in great shape. I cannot confirm that you need light strings, but it certainly can't hurt to baby the instrument at first and see how it goes.

[Earl Kayoss]

thx so much, Mike, et al.

Mike, when you say "this style", are you referring specifically to this shape?
the shape that intrigues me because, personally, i've never seen this shape before.
so when you say "this style", do you mean the shape of this mandolin or "this manufacturer" or... both?

i'll hold off on having the strings installed 'til i hear more opinions on the gauge.
thx again.

- e

[MikeEdgerton]

So far found this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?6597-Has-anyone-heard-of-a-quot-washington-quot-mando&highlight=washington) one, no pictures. That is kind of telling me we've seen them with other brands or no brand at all. That would not be uncommon. Mandolins of this era were sold under private labels by distributors and retailers all over the country. What we need to find is one with a major manufacturers label on it.

I'm referring to the shape. We have other mandolins branded Washington.

[Earl Kayoss]

it does say "light gauge" on the box of strings so, that is why i referred to them as such.

this mandolin is actually quite sturdy.
its not frail.

- e

[Earl Kayoss]

does anyone know the apprx. year of manufacture on mine?

and... sorry for so many questions.

(newbie.)

in a previous link provided me here, leading to a "Harwood" mandy photo,
when i scrolled down that thread, the metal plate on the back of that Harwood is same as plate on back of mine...
'cept, mine don't say "Harwood" but its the exact same plate otherwise.
i would think there is a relationship.

[OldGus]

Ah, the two horn "Washington" model. I had not seen one before.... There's something offsetting about the design in my opinion...

[MikeEdgerton]

Harwood and Jenkins and almost everyone else rebranded instruments built by others. That doesn't mean they might not have built some themselves as well. The shape of the plate isn't going to be an indicator of the builder, they all bought parts from the same jobbers. I'd guess that this mandolin was probably built between 1910 and 1930. Barring some other information like a catalog page you probably won't get much closer.

By the way, a ton of Regal built instruments have been attributed to the Larsens. I think the latest Regal book is casting a shadow on that idea. I think Regal built those instruments.

As for this one I'm not ready to make a guess yet as to who actually built it.

[houseworker]

this mandolin is actually quite sturdy.
its not frail.

And we're all keen it stays that way. Gibson strings are intended for mandolins built with the classic Gibson archtop. Flattop instruments require a considerably lower tension. Be patient, someone will be along with informed advice before too long.

[MikeEdgerton]

Two other Washington branded instruments:

one (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?52964-Washington-Banjo-mandolin&highlight=washington)

two (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?42715-Genuine-washington&highlight=washington)

[MikeEdgerton]

The strings that were sold when it was new were not particularly light guage folks. It lasted this long.

[EdHanrahan]

For what little it's worth, I've been on the Cafe since '08 or so, and have seen that shape before, so...

An important point (beside string gauge) is the placement of the bridge, both for intonation AND for structural integrity. There is bracing under the top, somewhere close to the tented "cant" line, that will support the string pressure. Usually, that spot is just "downstream" of the cant line & closer to the tailpiece, but that's not a certainty. If the intonation is good, then the placement relative to bracing should also be good. The current placement (especially overlapping the inlaid pickguard) is certainly not standard and probably dangerous under full string tension.

"Frets.com" has some great instructions on setting intonation and bridge placement (for which a clip-on digital tuner will help a lot).

Oh yeah: very neat mandolin!

[MikeEdgerton]

Hopefully Jim Garber or someone that has one of these will pop up with some pictures. I can't seem to locate any of the other old threads.

[Earl Kayoss]

Ah, the two horn "Washington" model. I had not seen one before.... There's something offsetting about the design in my opinion...

whaddya mean by "offsetting", Gus. :)

it is a bit whacky for sure but, know what...
its quite comfortable to sit with.
that big horn is actually functional as far as comfort whilst playing seated and maybe contributes a bit to the sound projection.

i dont have a case for it, ANY SUGGESTIONS?

[Earl Kayoss]

For what little it's worth, I've been on the Cafe since '08 or so, and have seen that shape before, so...

An important point (beside string gauge) is the placement of the bridge, both for intonation AND for structural integrity. There is bracing under the top, somewhere close to the tented "cant" line, that will support the string pressure. Usually, that spot is just "downstream" of the cant line & closer to the tailpiece, but that's not a certainty. If the intonation is good, then the placement relative to bracing should also be good. The current placement (especially overlapping the inlaid pickguard) is certainly not standard and probably dangerous under full string tension.

"Frets.com" has some great instructions on setting intonation and bridge placement (for which a clip-on digital tuner will help a lot).

Oh yeah: very neat mandolin!

WOW ED, THX SOOOOOOOO MUCH for that insight.
i will certainly take it into consideration and adjust accordingly when the time comes and i have a bit more insight on which string gauge to go with.
awfully kind of you, Ed.

- e

[bmac]

That is one wonderfully designed instrument. At $40 you did really well in my opinion.

[MikeEdgerton]

Found one. It's here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?69538-old-2-point-mando-maker-unknown&highlight=point). By the way, you should be able to triple your money on this on a bad day, on a good day maybe more. Beyond that, you probably won't find a form fitted case for it.

If I was going to guess at a maker I'd consider Regal. They made some really strange instruments over the years.

[Ben Milne]

Nice looking mando, a bit quirky and a good price.
I'd think a set of 10-34 strings would be as heavy as you should want, though others have more experience with cant tops than me.

[OldGus]

By offsetting I mean that I think it is odd, if you look at any of the body portions divided into four areas on either side of the two horns they are all offset from each of the other three... To me it look like a blob with two horns but I'm not telling you what to like... You've got experience with it and I've never seen one until today.

[Jim Garber]

Hopefully Jim Garber or someone that has one of these will pop up with some pictures. I can't seem to locate any of the other old threads.

I hope Garber comes thru, too. :) There were definitely others... I recall a blacktop one and one on eBay that was a total basket case. I can't access my home computer remotely at the moment but will check later.

[Earl Kayoss]

Thx so much Gents.
its alot of fun for me to learn about this thing.
and i was going bonkers before I found this site... trying to find info.

Gus... it certainly is "offsetting."
To me, it reminds me of a Sunfish.
It's quirky but...
it was that quirkieness that attracted me to it really.
there were 2 old mandolins there on the floor side by side.
the other one looked "normal" so...
i really gravitated to the abnormal one. it seemed more interesting.
its been pretty interesting so far.
every single thing about mandolins is brand new to me, in general, at this point.
i am glad this is my first mandolin and i am amused by its aesthetics.
i think i have 3 other photos that may not have posted the first time i tried.
if they did post.... sorry, in advance.
872288722987230

[Earl Kayoss]

P.S. - the whole outter border of the instrument has that pattern you see around the soundhole there.

and...
the guard is set into the face. you cant feel any edge of the pickguard at all, its impossible,
its sorta "inlaid" into the top.

and... it may quite possibly be a sunfish.
87231

[MikeEdgerton]

Boy, that was like Deja Vu all over again. Another previous post is here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?58883-Help-with-Identification&highlight=sunfish). Paul Hostetter likened the shape to that of a sunfish.

[MikeEdgerton]

By the way, both of the headstock shapes on all the examples we have of this thing correspond to common Regal and Lyon and Healy shapes.

[OldGus]

Haha.. that's funny Earl, I almost posted this rare fish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mneDhOtVEQw as what it reminded me of but I thought the comparison might be a little far out to remain relatable. And I wanted to make a comment that might violate the posting guidelines so I refrained... I have one mandolin that has a lot of uniqueness and character and know how that interest quality can add to an instruments enjoyment.

[Earl Kayoss]

well then...

it seems there have been a few of these sunfish mando's around these parts before.
its so cool to see them all.
thx for pointing me to them.
even if i dont learn anything else about my sunfish,
i want you to know how much i appreciate
all the input you folks have afforded me and...
quickly too so...
thx a mill.

mine projects fairly well.
right now, (and this is beyond embarrassing)...
all i can manage is like the mandolin bits in "maggie mae" from rod stewart.
but i've never had one in hand before.
i am keen on learning some worthwhile stuff though
and i'll give it the old college try.

i do own apprx. 35 guitars.
if anyone ever cares to have a look at them...
here they are, all in one shot, basically :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ9UQbZIt5c&feature=plcp
but...
my Guid Jumbo gets sorta cutoff at the end.
there's a song i wrote called "horses" on my youtube www.youtube.com/over700songs
, and it has a mandolin part in it,
i posted a link earlier. Jason Ringenberg from "Jason and the Scorchers" is also on that track.
i've written over 700 songs but i've only had a mandolin on one track.
i'm gonna try to sneak one in more often now.

- thx again

- e

[almeriastrings]

Yours looks to be a better-finished, higher grade model than usual for these things. I think for $40 you should be in jail for highway robbery:)) You did really well. Very interesting instrument. Nice 'herringbone' binding and pearl work and seems to be in fine condition. It is not worth a fortune, but a lot more than you snagged it for. I'd like to stumble across one of these myself, one day. I'll bet it sounds pretty neat once you get it going.

[mrmando]

This mandolin has got some damage to the top, just below the crack in the soundhole rosette. There's also a crack running underneath the pickguard.

I can't tell how far that damaged area extends. You should get the bridge cables off that thing and have the top looked at by a luthier, who should also peek inside and make sure all the bracing is tight.

I agree with the advice about using a 34-10 set of strings on this instrument. Martin makes some nice ones.

[BradKlein]

Like folks have said, a great buy, and obviously a fairly 'fancy' version of this very unusual design. D'Addario makes a light set - J62 (http://www.juststrings.com/dad-j62.html)- and that's where I would start out with something like this.

[Earl Kayoss]

Thx so much, gents.

yes, it is not in perfect shape but...
its sturdy and everything functions real well.
i did have a lighter gauge string set put on and...
it sounds so nice and projects well, it has a fair amount of volume to it.
not bad, especially for my needs (beginner level.)

my tech says the woods a bit dry and he had inserted some kinda wet spongy thing in the sound hole.
he told me to wrap the whole thing in a plastic bag
with this wet sponge in it for a few days. so thats what i did.
he said the wood will take in the moisture and the crack lines should diminish then.
but he said, in general, it needs the moisture.

i can tell you this,
i've already had more than $40 worth of fun with it.

- e

[Jim Garber]

my tech says the woods a bit dry and he had inserted some kinda wet spongy thing in the sound hole.
he told me to wrap the whole thing in a plastic bag
with this wet sponge in it for a few days. so thats what i did.
he said the wood will take in the moisture and the crack lines should diminish then.
but he said, in general, it needs the moisture.
87230

I would not call them crack lines -- they are cracks, at least that is what it looks like in this photo. I would have your tech check out the body and glue up those cracks. Those are in a structurally sensitive area. Also i would check the position of the bridge. I have a feeling that for correct intonation it should be moved back some closer to the cant (fold in the top).

Here are the others I have in my file. I don't believe that any had IDs to them. Yours may be the first. The last one below is from Lowell Levinger but i could not find it on his site. He may have more of a clue who made it. So far I think the OP has the fanciest one esp with the fretboard inlays.

[Earl Kayoss]

Thx Jim.

yes, the bridge did need to be moved back and it has been.
its just slightly slightly above where that bend in the top is.
there's a mark now where the bridge used to be... all those yrs.
you can see the bridge used to be where it was.

its so neat to see all these sunfish.

of note: what I thought was just a steel plate on the back of the head is not just a steel plate.
it's actually a self-contained "unit" that contains the machine heads and that whole thing inserts into the headstock.
the tuners work extremely well, i had them spruced up and they are nice and they function perfectly, which i think is strange for nearly 100 year old tuners.

[Jim Garber]

Those inset tuners are very common to that period esp for mandolins that are mid to higher grades. I would still have that top crack fixed if you want this instrument to last.

[Earl Kayoss]

Thx Jim.
I am actually quite fond of this little bugger now and...
i do happen to have an awesome luthier, as well as woodworkers in the family who do high-end woodworking.
That said...
i will 100% for sure start looking into what repairs need to be done and what's all involved with it.
if this thing has lasted a hundred years, I feel it deserves a little loving care.
and... i actually enjoy the process of looking after my instruments and i love the end result when it all goes well.

i'll give it a few more days to moisture-up, see how that affects the instrument and then go from there but...
keep in mind... right now, as we type,
its quite sturdy, it functions as intended, it sounds so nice and its a panic to fiddle around with.
nothings warped and i do believe that if the wood does take in some moisture from the inserted sponge...
it'll help the structural integrity a bit.

now, i wanna go back to the antique store and check on that other little mandolin that was adjacent to this sunfish. the other one was way old too but... looked more like what i would consider a "standard-looking" mandolin.
if i go back and buy it,
i'll probably annoy you fine folks again with a hundred questions.

[JeffD]

When I first started looking at mandolins, back a gabillion years in a galaxy far far away, I thought anything that didn't look like a bowlback looked odd. Then I kind of got used to A styles, especially flat tops. When I saw my first F style arch top, as a picture in Mandolin World News, I thought it was just too wierd. At first I wondered if a magazine that discussed mandolins that looked like that had anything to do with my bowlback.

Eventually I really got into the wonderous shapes out there. Your listing sunfish design is pretty cool. I have only seen one in person, and it was not in as good a shape as yours.

Lots of mojo. Enjoy.

[Earl Kayoss]

mandolins are certainly beautiful instruments, especially the fancy ones.
they are certainly functional art.

some of the stuff I have seen played on mandolin just boggles the mind.

I am merely a songwriter really. not much of a player.
I need instruments to write songs with. I have apprx. 35 guitars because they all produce their own specific sound and i'll grab a specific guitar depending on what sound I am after for any given song I am writing.
I have written over 700 songs, with absolutely and literally no musical training at all. None. Zilch. can't read a note, never took a lesson etc. etc.

That said, this little sunfish will open up a whole new world to me.
I am so looking forward to fiddling around with it and figuring it out.
you know, it seems to be strung/tuned backwards from a guitar. guitar goes... e, a, d,g ,b e. and the mandolin is in reverse from that so, already my tiny little brain is a bit twisted over this.
i had contemplating stringing the sunfish backwards to mimic the stringing of my guitars.
(embarrassing to admit, yes.) but... the heck with that, let's
have fun with it the right way.

i am totally looking forward to learning this instrument thru trial and error.
mostly error, I would think.
its a tremendous instrument, a mandolin.
The musicians who really know how to play mandolin are like gods to me.
it makes me very happy to hear them and see them play these mandolins.
some of their playing is flat-out astonishing.

well... i gotta start somewhere.. so, here I am embarrassing myself in front of experts.
but... i guarantee you I will progress on this instrument.

sorry for the length of this post, folks.

[choctaw61]

Lovely mandolin.would like to hear a sound clip once u get strings on it. I really like the video as well.Maybe u will do another video playing the washington for us to have a listen at.

[Bill Snyder]

choctaw61, the last time that the originator of this thread logged into the Mandolin Cafe was July of 2012.

[dustyamps]

Vintage Washington Mandolin testdrive on youtube.