Back/side mando woods

[mingusb1]

Hello, just wondering about the woods used for the backs and sides of mandolins. #Would you expect volume/tone differences necessarily from:

--maple vs. mahogany
--flamed maple vs. quilted maple
--eastern vs. western vs. european maple
--2-piece vs. 1-piece backs

Or are those differences basically cosmetic?

Thanks!
Z

[sunburst]

Would you expect volume/tone differences necessarily from:

--maple vs. mahogany
yes
--flamed maple vs. quilted maple
no
--eastern vs. western vs. european maple
maybe, depends more on hardness and stiffness, which overlap in these maples
--2-piece vs. 1-piece backs
no
The question was: what would I expect, those are just my answeres.

[Strado Len]

I am not a builder, but I would answer yes to all of the above, except for 1-piece vs. 2-piece back. The tonal differences between these differing woods are significant and have been previously discussed, and you might want to search for these threads. In general, the harder woods will give you a sharper, brighter sound, while the softer woods are warmer in tone. Mahogany is generally not used for bluegrass mandolins, as it is not as punchy sounding as maple.

[peter.coombe]

I agree with Strado, yes to everything except for 1-piece vs. 2-piece backs. #Every species of wood, be it Rock Maple, Big Leaf Maple, European Maple, Mahogony, Walnut or Myrtle has it's own characteristic sound. #Flamed Maple is usually quarter sawn, wheras quilted is slab sawn. #Quarter sawn is stiffer than slab sawn, so will sound different.

[pelone]

OK---each species of wood has its unique sound qualities. However, until someone does a piece of basic research that might involve recordable evidence, all opinions remain subjective!!! Maple may have been the backwood of choice to early luthiers because of its ability to take varnish so nicely and to negate the use of a filler for pores. I would not be afraid to try just about any type of wood as long as it had a resonable stiffness to it. Some nice outcomes can be gained by using quarter sawn wood for backs. After all--who decreed that the back of an instrument could not resonate along with the top. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will continue to experiment.

[Jim Garber]

However, until someone does a piece of basic research that might involve recordable evidence, all opinions remain subjective!!! #
I believe that Dr. Dave Cohen (http://users.erols.com/judcohen/acoustics.html) has been doing extensive research on mandolin acoustics.

Jim

[Spruce]

This statement:
"#Every species of wood, be it Rock Maple, Big Leaf Maple, European Maple, Mahogony, Walnut or Myrtle has it's own characteristic sound."

Combined with this statement:
"The question was: what would I expect, those are just my answeres. "

Does not equal this statement:
"OK---each species of wood has its unique sound qualities."

Again...
It's not the wood that displays the tonal characteristics, it's how a particular builder's style relates to the species in question...

Especially when you're talking about comparing woods that can be very similar in their densities, like:
--flamed maple vs. quilted maple and
--eastern vs. western vs. european maple

[Michael Lewis]

It is not just the stiffness of a back plate, but the proportional stiffness both along the grain and across the grain. Several studies have been performed on this aspect of wood and the conclusion is that , (drum rollllll) wood varies! Even pieces taken from the same tree can exhibit considerable variation. So, the question you need to ask is "can my luthier get the sound that I want?" As Spruce stated, the luthier is the greatest variable in the equation. This is not to say that the materials don't effect the tone. They do, and wise selection of materials is a big benefit to the outcome of the pending instrument if they are skillfully used.

[pelone]

Hey--jgarber. I read Dr. Cohen's short abstracted research note and to my less educated brain, did not identify one shred of information that would aid any discerning builder the ability to resonably compare and/or contrast wood choices for backs or sides of mandolins. Not once did the good Dr. even identify species of woods or even attempt to rank order any wood based on superior tonality. I am going to wake up and smell the shavings!! i.e., do not let convention or the opinion of "experts" determine what might be attempted. I recomend building for the satisfaction of a well constructed and lovely sounding instrument, regardless of the accepted material. Beauty is in the eye.

[Dave Cohen]

Pelone, "the good Dr." did the first three studies on mandolin acoustics, period. He is not a wood researcher. His focus, along with that of his coworkers, is mechanical vibration. Before you come to the conclusion that "science" has nothing to contribute if it does not immediately come up with all of the answers, try extending your homework time beyond just reading an abstract or two.

Dr. Dan Haines is a wood researcher. Try googling his name. In case you come up short, here is a specific reference which will command more than just reading an abstract.

Haines, Daniel W., "The Essential Properties of Wood Prepared for Musical Instruments", Catgut Acoustical Society Journal, 4 No. 2 (Series II), pp. 20-32, Nov., 2000.

A couple more things for your consideration:

the old LMI catalogue, from when Todd Taggart was at the helm.

anything you can find by wood researcher Voichita Bucur. She is located in Nancy, France.

[Dave Cohen]

Almost forgot; luthier/scientist Dave Hurd (aka "Kawika") had an article in American Lutherie a few years back, and he has just published a book on "Left brain lutherie".

[James Elton Stevens]

Since there is only 2% virgin timber left in this country. Will the tone wood sound we equate with greatness be unattainable in years to come?

I am in the tree growing business here in the south. We of course grow pine trees for paper as well as lumber production. Hardwoods are also farmed in this part of the country.

My U.S.Forestry agent explained that once both hardwoods and pine trees are exposed to commercial fertilizers through farming or from incidential exposure in ground water. The growing cycles will be altered forever.

Hardwoods that took 30 or 40 years to mature in the virgin timber days, are now maturing in 9.5 to 15 years. That will mean much wider growth rings. That of course makes the tight grained woods of old even more difficult to come by and more expensive.

Does this mean that Loar-era mandolins will one day demand prices equal to violins built by Strad-o-whats his name?

JIM S.

[fatt-dad]

Question: Isn't the one piece back cut on a different grain that the two piece back? As such, wouldn't the cut on the grain affect the dynamics/acoustic properties of the completed instrument?

f-d

[sunburst]

One piece, and two piece backs, both can be flat sawn, or quarter sawn, or somewhere in between.

I looked at the original questions as being asked one at a time. In other words, flamed vs. quilted means: flamed, quarter sawn, stiff, big leaf maple vs. quilted, quarter sawn, stiff, big leaf maple, for example.