Yet another reason not to shop... [Archive]

futrconslr

Dec-18-2004, 12:28pm

jim simpson

Dec-18-2004, 1:16pm

Maybe it was the best tonewise in their store! I guess that wouldn't speak well for the rest of their inventory. I think Formica is probably best left on kitchen cabinet counters and cheap electric guitars.

futrconslr

Dec-18-2004, 2:30pm

My point exactly! His statement was so wrong on so many different levels! lol

futrconslr

Dec-18-2004, 2:31pm

I am still waiting for a review on the Dudenbostel cedar formica f-5.....:p

Cogger

Dec-18-2004, 2:47pm

Funny this formica thread has come up. I was shopping for a guitar for my son and sort of gravitated towards a Martin. I stopped in at a GC store to look around. I often do that because they have a large inventory and it is a good place to see several items at the same time. I buy from a small, local dealer who has been pleasent to work with.
Anyway, I looked at a Martin that had a HPL back and sides. The top was solid spruce. I actually said to the guy, this is just Formica. He said, no it is High Pressure Laminate! Counter tops are made of High Pressure Laminate. It actually didn't sound bad. However, when I went to my local store, the all wood Taylor was the one to buy. Maybe it is just, me but if I buy an instrument, I'd like it to be wood.

DPrager

Dec-18-2004, 3:27pm

While it's true, GC might not be the best place to look for high end acoustic gear, they do offer occasional surprises. My personal theory is that their buyers like to add some high quality inventory to the mix.

My wife, the banjo player and I were just cruising through one day and found a new Deering Golden Era (sorry) banjo with a special price tag at about 50% off the then 3200 MSRP. After picking it up and noodling on it for a few minutes she was approached by a sales person who thought he could take another couple hundred dollars from the price.

The guys in the store didn't know what they had or how to play or set it up. We snatched it, Lynda had a pro set up done and got the buy of lifetime.

YMMV

J. Mark Lane

Dec-18-2004, 3:29pm

Typical GC story.

OTOH, although I wouldn't even remotely suggest that they compare to proper wooden instruments, the Martin HPL guitars are interesting. I bought one and kept it for a while, largely for kicks, but also because I wanted something to take sailing. Immensely durable, and reall, for what they are, they don't sound half bad. I'd actually like to see someone start making a mandolin from the stuff. Just a simple flat top would be nice. Cheap, durable, etc.

And then, let's talk about a graphite, like the Rainsong?

Mark

Professor PT

Dec-18-2004, 5:07pm

Ah, I would be one of the first to point out the problems with GC, but on the other hand, I am grateful for their incompetence. It certainly was a factor in Gibson discontinuing the mandolins through GC, and as a result, I got my F-9 at cost. If it weren't for GC, I would probably never be able to afford an Amercian made F-style with such great tone. Funny how things work out; I never dreamed that I'd buy a mandolin from them.

Stephen Perry

Dec-18-2004, 6:06pm

Yeah, that GC went downhill very fast once Tim Miller left for Atlanta. Really quite sad. I used to get a good deal of repair business from them, traded violins and things there. It worked OK. But now. Yuck. I don't even go in any more. Maybe I should, since incompetence does tend to create the odd deal!

Dan Adams

Dec-18-2004, 6:16pm

A friend of mine purchasing a Bruce Weber signed Gibson Fern for $2,995.00 at GC. A steal of a lifetime. I keep offering the original purchase price plus 10%, but the mando has found a permanent home.

So Sad! Dan

Jim Rowland

Dec-18-2004, 8:21pm

I used to work in plastics.
Formica is PAPER, impregnated with Phenolic resins as I recall.
Jim

acousticphd

Dec-19-2004, 4:51pm

Well, paper is wood, in a way, yes? Does this mean HPL/formica is processed/pressed/shaped wood, or is it mainly synthetc? Ie, High-pressure laminate of WHAT?

What I don't like is that the catalogs for both GC and Musicians friend now frequently describe the Martin HPL guitars as "koa HPL" or "mahogany HPL", etc, when all this means is that they are painted or finished to look like wood. And yet, the travel guitars don't sound horrible.

mandroid

Dec-19-2004, 6:41pm

HPL , is a process, after all, and is a couple layers very firmly scrunched together.
Djangolins, like the selmerish guitars are laminated back and sides, bet no splits along the grain on those, due to the other layer is usually crossgrain to the surface ones.
layers of what? is the question to ask,
(but not to the Teen part-time clerk at the GC, probably)

elExtranjero

Dec-19-2004, 9:28pm

Back on topic...

I appreciate the service that Guitar Center offers. Very few stores (of any kind!) offer the selection that GC carries that you can try out IN THE STORE and return if you don't like!!! Yes, the kids that work there are just that for the most part; kids. The adults that work there are at a job just a step above managing the local burger joint. I don't hold that against them; I've lived on beans and cornbread before myself. If I were in the position to have to work at GC I'd do my best to move inventory to feed my family as well.

Yes, I buy a reasonable amount of stuff from GC; they simply carry more than anyone else. Yes, I still patronize the small, specialty shops. They have the experts that I want to deal with. No, the local specialty shops will not be able to compete with GC on bulk pricing for the most part. But that simply allows them to narrow their focus to a specific audience; bluegrass, acoustic, jazz, etc.

Sorry, but I just get tired of seeing the seemingly never ending tirades against GC. I've seen them here, on telecaster.com, the "Unofficial Martin Forum" and elsewhere. Give these guys a break. They're a great music store. No, they don't provide the expertise your local luthier does, which is why you should buy from the local shop when you can. But NOBODY provides the opportunity to sample stuff like GC has! GC has done as much to introduce music back to the mainstream as has been done in years.

No, their staff aren't dedicated professionals like your local shop... although there are some really good guys there. I've got 'friends' there that call me by name, know what kind of pick I like and ask me "how's the band doing?" Some of their guys are very good. Some are very good at what they do.

Bottom line: You know what they are, you know what they offer. Give the guys a break for crying out loud. They're either kids just trying to make a living that don't know better, or adults with a family trying to put food on the plate.

(This soapbox rant is available on dvd or vhs as "Rant #121-Retail Music Stores and the People Who Go There then Complain" at www.LaTierraExtrana.com)

J. Mark Lane

Dec-19-2004, 10:07pm

It's just not that simple. Sure, now and then you run into a good person working there. There's enough good people in the world, it's bound to happen. Mostly, they don't last (fortunately for them).

If you ask me, the notion of a quality music store is inconsistent with the demands placed on management (at the Board level) by a publicly traded corporation. It's just a bad idea. There have to be values other than The Bottom Line in order for a music store to work well. When you're publicly traded, it's extremely difficult to get away with having any values other than The Bottom Line. That's what it really boils down to.

And on a day to day basis, it translates into poor training, low hiring standards (essentially non-existent, as far as I can tell), deceptive advertising, cut-throat sales practices, lousy inventory (man, they sell a lot of garbage in those places...and they really SELL it, too), and a complete lack of interest or concern for any musician who doesn't fit the mold for their lowest common denominator Model Customer.

If the GC model succeeds, you can say goodbye to the traditional music store...the kind where the owner runs the place, picks his inventory, caters to a range of styles and budgets, and knows what he is doing. Just like we are witnessing the demise of the small independent bookstore, or "record" store....or dozens of other kinds of shops that are being edged out by a homogenized Big Box of some sort. Frankly, I find it all immensely depressing. And I'll be damned if I'm going to try to rationalize it away by pointing to the occasional Good Guy working at one of these abominations.

Mark

Gail Hester

Dec-19-2004, 10:59pm

Quote: “Sorry, but I just get tired of seeing the seemingly never ending tirades against GC.”

I’ve enjoyed reading some of the funny GC stories about folks dealing with Bluegrass instruments as long as it’s not mean spirited but I have to say that I totally agree with elExtranjero. This is like arguing the pros and cons of Wall Mart and blaming the employees for the cons. GC/Musicians Friend have been around for a number of years and their “model” seems to have proven to be very successful. I’ve spent and saved a ton of money at GC/MF over the years but it’s not the place I’d go for BG instruments and I don’t understand the animosity expressed here.

There are four GCs here in the northwest close to me and I have frequented all of them. I am usually greeted by name at any of them and I have friends that manage some of the departments. Most, if not all of their employees (kids) are musicians and many are working musicians. The GCs around here are always very busy and they work their tails off most of the time. I agree that most of them don’t know zip about BG instruments but then I would probably suck if I worked in the “Death Metal” department and there would be a thread somewhere talking about the stupid old coot at the GC.

To shop at a GC you need to do your homework since they’ll match just about any price and don’t have unreasonable expectations in the BG area, it’s just not their thing. But like Hank Hill said, “that’s allot of batteries for four bucks.”

-Chuck

PaulD

Dec-20-2004, 9:15am

With regards to the Martin "Formica" guitar... I don't know if futrconslr actually took the time to listen to it. It certainly isn't one of GC's best sounding guitars... they carry Taylors and real Martins... but it suprised me when I first heard one at GC about a year ago. I never cared for Ovations, but I could see buying one of these Martins. I like Mark's idea... taking it sailing; no worry about moisture/humidity changes on the top and back, and you could safely use it to paddle back to the marina if the wind dies! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I would still prefer the baby Taylor for a guitar in that size for my kids, but I wouldn't write off the Martin HPL.

With regards to GC... they serve a particular market; mostly rockers on a budget, but I've gotten good deals on things like guitar stands, microphone cables and such there... not to mention my F-9, but that was a one-time deal. I don't have a problem with GC, but I only go in there about once a year because they don't carry much that I'm interested in. Staffing is going to be sketchy (would you like fries with that, sir?), but the guy that helped me buy the F-9 seemed to know acoustic instruments and I was surprised by the punker-looking kid that had personal experience with vintage Gibson mandos.

Paul Doubek

generankin

Dec-20-2004, 9:48am

I absolutely could not believe this......I wandered into a Guitar Center in an Eastern Tennessee town that will remain nameless but is inhabited by a football team that wears Orange and White and #is close to the home of a builder of 30K mandos. #They have a guitar that looked like it was made of cedar. # #I #overhear the salesman tell some poor guy that this guitar is one of #best instruments "tonewise" in the store......its made of....Formica....i kid you not. #After the salesman left I told the guy when he got tired of it he could use it to redo his kitchen countertops. #I only wish this story wasnt true

A story I've heard for decades, not sure of its truth, is that Ramirez, a top Spanish luthier of the 19thC (he & his successors still build some of the best classical and flamenco instruments), built a guitar of papier maché, then put the finest top he could make onto it, all to prove that it was the top that counted.

Nevertheless, I'm with the others: #gimme an axe made of real tree wood. #I have a Baby Taylor with ply sides & back and a solid spruce top and it is OK for what it is, but it ain't like my dreadnaught.

glauber

Dec-20-2004, 9:58am

Well, like a famous American politician would say, you shop at the Guitar Center you have, not the Guitar Center you wish you had.

GC and others (i think Sam Ashe is marginally better) are good places for buying cables, mike stands, microphones, monitors, etc, at at good price. Perhaps not the best place to shop for top-quality mandolins (or it would be called Mandoling Center, right?).

Jack Roberts

Dec-20-2004, 4:08pm

GC donated a number of guitars and electric pianos to the local high school.

They are nice to my son when he goes in to play their guitars, even though they know he has no money. They let him try their different effects and give him lots of encouragement.

AND they have a very limited selection of mandolins. So I don't buy mandolins there, but I did buy a new hardshell case for my son's strat as a Christmas Present.

Merry Christmas to the tatooed young woman with the pierced tongue and thrice dyed hair that works in the accessories department at the Oxnard Guitar Center.

Jack

steve in tampa

Dec-20-2004, 6:06pm

Our GC is heads above our Sam Ash stores. Sam Ash around here really blows with those cheap unplayable waste of wood guitars, and has never had a decent mandolin. We have one great guy at GC, Big Al, who was at Mars before, and he recently hooked me up with a Martin 000-15 w/ HSC for 480. The guys at Sam Ash just stand around fiddling with their nose rings......

futrconslr

Dec-20-2004, 9:38pm

Wow. I didnt mean to start a blowup. I buy recording equipment there mostly. They have a good guy at the one I go to here in Nashville. The funny thing is I was in this same store about a year ago and they had probably 30 good mandolins.....some used some new. Gibson and Webers mostly. Now it like nothing. I did hear the countertop guitar and since I didnt comment on the tone I will now. It was ok. I have a Takaminie that sounds better and looks more like a Martin than this one did...matter of fact I think Takamine got sued over it! lol

I dont mind GC or Sam Ash all that much except for the throngs of 15 year olds playing stairway to heaven or smoke on the water as loud as they can crank the amps without getting kicked out of there. My problem with this particular store on this particular day was here was a guy who didnt know much about guitars getting sold a bill of goods for whatever reason.

I will admit though than when I had my Randy Rhodes locks, my earrings and liked my music alot harder I would have been like a kid in a candy store at GC.

mandodon

Dec-21-2004, 6:26am

Gracias Extranjero!

Everytime I read a criticism of Guitar Center, it includes a degrading reference to either a "snot-nose clerk" or some bloke playing "Stairway to Heaven". Those problems are the least worries one should have with GC. Young inexperienced folks working at music stores, or even worse, cunning salesmen, have been there long before GC...and so has Stairway to Heaven. Maybe you should park your BMW, put your latte down for a sec, and think about the fact that young people need jobs, and young kids like to rock out.

I understand the Walmartization of the country is not something everyone celebrates, to include myself, but it is a harsh reality, and it is everywhere...department stores, hardware stores, pharmacies, and yes, even our beloved music stores. Just down blame the guys and gals putting in a days work with whatever level of training their company has provided.

futrconslr

Dec-21-2004, 7:52am

[QUOTE]Stairway to Heaven. #Maybe you should park your BMW, put your latte down for a sec, and think about the fact that young people need jobs, and young kids like to rock out.

Since I was the only one that made a reference to Stairway to Heaven I guess this is directed to me. #Look, My problem is not a "cunning salesman" #he was a crook. #BTW he was not a "snot nosed kid" but a guy old enough to be my Dad.

I don't have a BMW or drink Latte. # You should be careful about stereotypes.....I didn't refer to you as a anti-business, tree hugging, dirt worshiping non-bathing hippie...now did I? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have absolutely no problem with "the Walmartization" of the country. #Those places have their place in the market. #I just don't like to shop with anyone who is dishonest.

Pardon me for the spelling problems....I need to stop typing without my contacts...LOL.

And for the record.....I drive a 350z and drink Coffee (remember that?) sometimes with a little bourbon....just not while driving!

J. Mark Lane

Dec-21-2004, 8:09am

Is there an emoticon for spitting your latte all over the screen? Oh, well...there should be. Anyway, I gotta go to work, so it's off to start the BMW. On my drive to the office, I think I'll celebrate the notion of personal responsibility by contemplating how victimized all those snot-nosed kids are, with their inadequate training and the hard days they put in at work. Alas, life is tough. I'm thankful that our future is safe with them. I think I'll call my broker on the way, too, and have him buy some more GC stock....

PlayerOf8

Dec-21-2004, 8:14am

GC like every other musical instrument store on the planet is in business to make money. The last time I was in one, the salesman didn't hold a gun to my head when I made my purchase. I'm sure there are plenty of horror stories to go around but like it or not GC fills the necessary evil in most musicians. We're cheap and we want our stuff for nothing or as close to nothing as possible. It's a WAL-Mart mentality. GC or SA or 123 wouldn't be in business if we didn't shop there. Right or wrong, they are not going away.

George

PlayerOf8

Dec-21-2004, 8:35am

So your complaint isn't real with GC. It is with all dishonest salesmen in the music business?
Twenty-Five years ago, I wrote an article in American Lutherie magazine about a widow who sold her late husband's D'Angelico for $300 to the oldest Ma&Pop guitar shop in the neighborhood. They told her that the guitar was out of style. No one forced her to sell it, but she did. The next day, to owner offered it to me for $5K while exercising his "right" to make a profit. I didn't buy it.
The moral of the story is Honesty is a one way street.Shame on dishonest salesmen in any music store.
Shop elsewhere!
George

futrconslr

Dec-21-2004, 11:29am

No, I still think GC sucks. #BTW...J.Mark....can you send me the name of your broker? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ronlane3

Dec-21-2004, 12:56pm

Anyway, I gotta go to work, so it's off to start the BMW.
Dang Mark, a BMW and a stock broker. I think you are seeing some of my share of the Lane and Lane company that we formed a while back.

Guess, I'll just have to get in my '05 Tahoe and go to the Local GC and have the first snot-nosed sales person I see ring up a Gibson on your tab. Hehehe http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

steve in tampa

Dec-21-2004, 1:56pm

Anybody have any Mars Music stock???

J. Mark Lane

Dec-21-2004, 2:17pm

Uh, Mars went belly up, as I recall. And the assets were purchased by Musician's Friend...which is owned by...GC. So there ya have it.

Ron, make sure you get yourself a nice one, preferably a Master Model. I wouldn't want anybody to think I use my accounts for anything other than the Very Best. And make sure you buy it from a Snot Nosed Kid. I want those commissions properly allocated!

As for my broker, his name is Max E. Mize. His number is 1-800-I-AM-GREEDY. Have at it!

Mark

futrconslr

Dec-21-2004, 2:41pm

Greedy stockbrokers are the best kind....kinda like dishonest lawyers....

J. Mark Lane

Dec-21-2004, 2:48pm

Greedy stockbrokers are the best kind....kinda like dishonest lawyers....
Exactly! And easy women.

futrconslr

Dec-21-2004, 2:54pm

Ah...there it is.....the bane of my existence for the last 20 years. I love them but oh the pain...and sometimes shame they put you through! I guess the same could be said for Pac-Rim Mandos....(how do you like that mando content?)

J. Mark Lane

Dec-21-2004, 3:01pm

Well, I've moved beyond Pac-Rim mandos. I've found that a fine American made mandolin responds better to the touch, makes sweeter sounds, improves with time, and keeps me inspired to play longer and more often. Wait? Was that...women or mandos? Damn, now I'm confused. ...Well, anyway, dishonest lawyers and greedy stockbrokers...that's the easy part. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif