Raphael Ciani bowlback - setup/repair in NJ?

[sarakay]

Hi group,

I found a bowlback mandolin in the attic of an old family house I am cleaning out. #Here's the contents of the label:

A. Galiano
Raphael Ciani
Fabbricante di Mandolini e Chitarri
Garentite

There's a mark that looks like a Masonic symbol between "Raphael" and "Ciani."

I wasn't sure what I had hold of, but was intrigued with the idea of playing a stringed instrument so I brought it home and took it to a local music shop. #The guy there set it up and put light Martin strings on it. #He said the neck was straight and it was in good shape, considering the decades it had spent in the attic, where it's hot in the summer and cold in the winter.

The G strings are giving me some trouble. #When I tune them to an open G, the notes up the neck get progressively sharper. #But if I tune them to a higher note, e.g. if I tune the fretted D on the G string to the open D on the D string, the notes below it are off. #I am just a beginner and am probably not using the right terms, so I hope you can figure out what I mean. #Additionally the G strings seem kind of sloppy and buzzy, but as I am just learning maybe that's "user error."

I'd much appreciate it if anyone could recommend someone who could repair it, in NJ or the surrounding area (Philly, New York City). #The local music shops here mostly deal with guitars. #I've researched the maker a little bit on these boards and on the net and have gathered that this instrument might be of pretty decent quality, so I'd like to take it to someone who specializes in mandolins.

Thanks in advance and happy holidays!

Sara

[Jim Garber]

Ciani was related -- I think Uncle -- to the famed guitar maker John D'Angelico. It is probaby a nice instrument tho the value of it would depend on the condition and the ornamentation.

I would love to see some photos of this instrument. I have mostly seen flatback mandolins and guitars by this maker.

I would take it to Tom Crandall at Matt Umanov or Bob Jones in Brooklyn. Tom is one of the best in the city and has a lot of experience with bowlbacks. Bob is also very experienced and well-respected.

Tom C at Umanov: 212-675-2157
Bob Jones: 718-965-6786

Jim

[Eugene]

I concur with Jim...and am also pining for images. #Some Ciani mandolins were very nice with a very high quality of decor and extended fingerboards to span the soundhole for virtuoso use.

Your intonation issue may be no more problematic than an improperly positioned bridge. #The harmonic at the 12th fret should equal the fretted note. #A fretted note that's sharp will require the bridge to be slid back towards the tailpiece. #I have this same problem with some of my old mandolins, but the bridge should remain as close to perpendicular to the line of symmetry as possible. #A little intonation compromise amongst strings will be necessary (not all strings will intonate perfectly across a fretted fingerboard given its rough approximation of equal temperament).

I would probably recommend you take the Martin lights off this piece in favor of something even a little lighter. #Even the Martin lights are a bit heavier than the strings for which this was built. #I like Dogal's "Calace" carbon steel, "dolce" gauge RW-92b. #They are available by mail order from Classic Bows: classicbows@nethere.com, 619-282-2010. #Alternately, string sets by GHS ("Classical"), Dean Markeley, and Ernie Ball to go to 0.009" on e" will do no harm, although the sound is not nearly of the same quality and the longevity is not so long. #Some like Black Diamond's classic set, but the basses are rather thick. #Lenzner makes very high quality, appropriate strings with bronze-wound basses, but they are very difficult to obtain in the US.

[sarakay]

Thanks so much, Jim and Eugene! I am printing out your messages; I'll get on the phone to the men you recommended after the Christmas madness is over.

And I am more than happy to supply a few pictures of my baby. I think it might be a humbler little sister of the ornate ones you mentioned, but it's kind of cute anyway.

Here goes ... full body shot:

http://users.cybercomm.net/~sarakay/mandopix/mando_xaz.jpg


The label:

http://users.cybercomm.net/~sarakay/mandopix/mando_xdz.jpg

The tuning pegs:

http://users.cybercomm.net/~sarakay/mandopix/mando_xcz.jpg

Apparently I can only post 3 images per message, so the rest of the pictures will be in the next message.

Sara

[sarakay]

More pictures ...

The back (the white spot is flash reflection):

http://users.cybercomm.net/~sarakay/mandopix/mando_xbz.jpg

Another shot of the back:

http://users.cybercomm.net/~sarakay/mandopix/mando_xez.jpg

And the bridge. #There might be something wrong here. #The two G strings are separated by a wood spacer, but there are no spacers between the other string pairs:

http://users.cybercomm.net/~sarakay/mandopix/mando_xfz.jpg

Aren't digital cameras great? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif # Let me know if you want any more views.

Thanks so much, and have a happy holiday!

Sara

[Eugene]

Indeed, a bit more humble, but it still looks to be very neatly crafted and in excellent condition. #You should be proud, Sara, it's beautiful. #Yes, the string spacers have chipped off your bridge. #A skilled luthier could fill the gaps and re-saw the little slots. #Tom Crandall absolutely is my favorite instrument repairman, especially for old mandolins, but be warned that Umanov's shop (http://www.umanovguitars.com/) can be pricey. #Yours sounds to need such trivial work to make it functional that it might even be affordable at Umanov's. #I'd start there, at least for an estimate, and tell Tom that Eugene sent you (that always shakes 'im up).

[Jim Garber]

It is true that Umanov's shop it pricey on repairs but bear in mind that this is New York area where everything is more expensive. Most of the top repair folks charge serious money and the prices have been going up. It does seem like your mandolin needs relatively little in that way, which is good.

It does look like a nice one The only other I have seen was a fancier one that was on eBay a few months ago ( see below).

Jim

[Eugene]

Ah yes...

[Martin Jonas]

Lovely mandolin, and looks to be in great shape. I hope the intonation issue isn't serious, as there seems little space to move the bridge back towards the cant. My personal taste runs towards plainer instruments anyway, and I find yours more attractive than the one that Jim posted.

If I recall correctly, Ciani was not only the uncle of d'Angelico, but also the shop where the young d'Angelico was apprenticed. Your bowlback reminds me a bit of this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3750712518&indexURL=2#ebayphotohosting) early d'Angelico that was discussed here before. The soundhole binding, edge binding, headstock/neck shape and finish and the back of the bowl are very similar; the tuner hardware, tailpiece and scratchplate are completely different. The asking price of that d'Angelico was rather inflated through the illustrious name (it sold in the end for just $280), which won't apply to yours, but yours is nevertheless an instrument with an intriguing lineage and should be well worth looking over by someone with knowledge of bowlbacks. Certainly a cut above the typical attic find!

I agree with Eugene that you should take the Martin lights off, and replace them with Dogal Calace or Lenzner Bronce strings (if you can get hold of them). That in itself may alleviate the problems with the G strings. How high is the action at the 12th fret, i.e. the distance from the underside of the strings to the top of the fret? A high action may also be related to intonation difficulties.

Martin

[sarakay]

Thank you so much for the great information about my little mandolin. #I'm so glad I found this board - what a nice bunch of folks you are.

When I first saw the label, I assumed the mandolin was a souvenir of a relative's trip to Italy in the 1950's. #Good thing I didn't put it in a garage sale with a $5 tag on it!

Take care,
Sara

[mer]

Hi
You can try Lark Street Music in Teaneck NJ it is on cedar lane ave. I would call first to make sure they can help. It is about 20 min away from George Washington bridge.

[John Zimm]

Sara-that is a nice looking instrument. You'll have to talk to some of the fellows in the classical section about joining the Brotherhood of the Bowl. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I hope she treats you well.

-John.

[Jim Garber]

You'll have to talk to some of the fellows in the classical section about joining the Brotherhood of the Bowl. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
It is too late... #she has automatic membership in the Order just by virtue of owning one.

Jim

[sarakay]

Thanks for the suggestion, mer. #I found Lark Street Music's web site; I'll give him a call.

John and Jim - do they let girls in the Brotherhood of the Bowl? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #

Sara

[Jim Garber]

It is not (as far as I know) a "Brotherhood" at all but was carefully named the "Loyal Order of the Bowl" to cater to our universalist leanings. Not an exclusive group -- we like everyone.

You are already enrolled...

Jim

[bratsche]

Hmmm, I called it the "Noble Order of the Bowl" on my design (link below), as well as acknowledging the "Universal Brother and Sisterhood" aspect. But alas, I am not yet even a member thereof...

bratsche

[John Zimm]

It is too late... she has automatic membership in the Order just by virtue of owning one.
Must the bowlback be in playing condition in order for one to become a member of the Noble/Loyal Order of the Bowl? I have an old Stella that does not sound the best, so I don't try to play it. However, I usually play classical music on my f-style.

This reminds me-you know how they talk about scroll envy and whatnot. Lately, I have been suffering from bowl envy. It must be that Aonzo album I have been listening to lately. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-John.

[Jim Garber]

It is too late... #she has automatic membership in the Order just by virtue of owning one.
Must the bowlback be in playing condition in order for one to become a member of the Noble/Loyal Order of the Bowl? #I have an old Stella that does not sound the best, so I don't try to play it. #However, I usually play classical music on my f-style. #

This reminds me-you know how they talk about scroll envy and whatnot. #Lately, I have been suffering from bowl envy. #It must be that Aonzo album I have been listening to lately. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-John.
I am not even sure if actual ownership is a prerequisite for membership.

Which Aonzo album are you listeing to?

Jim

[John Zimm]

I am listening to Serenata. I wish I had more like it.

-John.

[Eugene]

This reminds me-you know how they talk about scroll envy and whatnot. #Lately, I have been suffering from bowl envy...
Wow. You've got the bug. It won't be long 'til we have you, Buckley.

[John Zimm]

Wow. You've got the bug. It won't be long 'til we have you, Buckley.
Yep, pretty soon I will be squirrelling away money, selling things on ebay, selling off books, and saving up to get a playable bowlback. And to think, it all started just by viewing that video clip of Detlef Tewes.

-John.

[vkioulaphides]

Nice instrument, Sara! May you enjoy it in good health and cheer for many, many years to come!

The intonation issue is, to some extent, systemic: the thicker strings are inherently imperfect. We can alleviate the problem with some slight repositioning of the bridge, moving it down, even slanting it a bit, as suggested above. Also, the bowlback-specific Dogals and Lenzners will certainly get you at least half way where you want to be, intonation-wise.

And yes, girls are indeed most welcome to the Order. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif In fact, we have been trying to enlist bratsche for a while, now. Linda (username: hrimaly) rejoined the Order in a BIG way recently, with her acquisition of a fine, modern Pandini; the list of bowl-wielding ladies goes on...

As for buckley, he is well on his way in his subconscious apprenticeship and mental preparation. By the way, buckley, if you enjoy Carlo's Serenata, you can get his other CD, entitled Traversata, or his latest one, with him as soloist with the Ligurian Orchestra of picked/plucked instruments; different, of course, but equally beautiful.

I second the praise for Tom Crandall and recommend him heartily. Yes, despite Umanov's steep pricing, your instrument is in such good condition that it would need nothing but the barest, most basic check-up set-up. Tom can do that brilliantly and without taking you to the poorhouse.

Enjoy!

P.S. Having finally, FINALLY managed to get together with Jim, although we live less than an hour apart, hmmm... Sara, we could —I say could— get a bunch of us Tri-Staters together to read some trios, quartets... I can dream, can't I?

[John Zimm]

As for buckley, he is well on his way in his subconscious apprenticeship and mental preparation. By the way, buckley, if you enjoy Carlo's Serenata, you can get his other CD, entitled Traversata, or his latest one, with him as soloist with the Ligurian Orchestra of picked/plucked instruments; different, of course, but equally beautiful.
Thank you for the recommendation. I'll see if I can find a copy locally.


P.S. Having finally, FINALLY managed to get together with Jim, although we live less than an hour apart, hmmm... Sara, we could —I say could— get a bunch of us Tri-Staters together to read some trios, quartets... I can dream, can't I?

If this ever does happen, please record it for the rest of us. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-John.

[vkioulaphides]

Well, John, suffice it to say that Jim and I, although we live one county apart, have needed about 13 months to bring this get-together about! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

But, why bewail the time it took us? Far more important —and more meaningful— to remember the great time we had!

Eager for more...

[John Bertotti]

I think Steve from acoustic music works may be considering another Lenzner string purchase this coming year. So if interested I'd give him a call. They are the best strings I've had on my Vega so far.
Sara That is one gorgeous bowl. John

[sarakay]

Just wanted to say thanks again to all the folks who shared their knowledge with me in re the Ciani bowlback. #This board truly is a wonderful resource. #I've been lurking around, reading messages about mandolins in general and bowlbacks in particular, and have learned quite a bit - especially how to hold onto the slippery thing. #(I'd already figured out the rubberized shelf liner trick but will hit the auto supply store to upgrade to a chammy.)

vkioulaphides, you would be disappointed if I showed up to play, because I am such a rank beginner that I can barely get through two scales without lots of problems. #But since it takes you guys thirteen months to get together, maybe the time after next I will be in better shape!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Take care & have a great New Year,
Sara

[otterly2k]

Sara-
I don't know where you are in NJ, but if you are closer to Philly than NYC, you could consider Fred Oster at Vintage Instruments.

Re: playing... stick with it....mandolin is a really fun and versatile instrument...rather addictive as you might tell from the number of us who spend a lot of time discussing it when we're not playing!

I had a Weymann bowlback that I sold to a friend a while back because I just couldn't master the holding of the thing, as much as I enjoyed its sound and beauty. I will always be a member of the Noble Order in spirit...

*(-;

KE

[vkioulaphides]

Happy New Year, Sara!

First things first: Please just call me Victor. Second: once you cross your right leg over the left one, and sit the little critter on your lap and against your body, it really has no wish OR way to slip away from such a loving grip! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif It's just a matter of finding the right angles; after that, comfort is forever.

As for being a beginner, well... some of us (yours truly included) are PERPETUAL beginners, despite the many years we may have been playing. So, you are hardly far behind...

Do keep playing, enjoying, and try to get together with fellow members of the Noble Order A.S.A.P.

Cheers,

Victor

[sarakay]

Oops! #I just saw that there were a few more posts here ...

Thanks for the kind words, Victor. #I'm having lots of fun with my mandolin, even if I'm not very good. #(That's #being honest, not modest. #I saw the cat put her ears back and leave the room when I started to play today!)

KE, thanks so much for the tip in re Fred Oster in Philadelphia. #That would actually be a little closer to me. #I see via Google that he is the stringed instruments expert for Antiques Road Show on PBS. #Cool!

Take care,
Sara

[Eugene]

...And I believe that Fred's significant other is one of the rare fans of bowlback mandolins. That's partly why he offers such a respectable stock regarding our wee instrument.