A dirty subject

[aimee]

Our little acoustic trio has gotten to the point where we've been asked to play a holiday party for 30 or so guests. We'll be sawing away at Christmas carols and some trad fiddle tunes for an hour or so.

When asked "how much cash do you want?" of course I drew a blank. Our area is pretty much made up of small towns with not too much of an amateur music scene. (Said amateur music scene being largely populated by skinny college kids toting around their 6 string in a nylon bag)

What would you do?

[brandon]

free beer?

[Greenmando]

I think $100 for each of you would not be unreasonable

[brandon]

$300.00 for an hour of playing sounds kinda steep, but maybe I'm just used to the frugal bar owners in my area.

[John Flynn]

It is a dirty subject because discussing it in a forum like this can be construed as "price fixing," a criminal offense. Of course, I know that would not be your intent or anyone else's intent here, but we live in interesting times!

Staying on the safe side of that problem, I will say how I think about it as an musician who only gets paid for about 4 or 5 gigs a year. 1) I think about what the venue can realistically afford and what they are getting out of having me play there. 2) I think about what my time is worth to me and what else I am getting out of it (the chance to play, free food, free beer, exposure, experience playing in front of people). I start with any number, say $30 an hour per musician, just for the sake of argument. I ask myself "Is that too high for factor #1? Is it too low for factor #2? I try numbers up and down until one seems right. The truth is I wouldn't do a gig I didn't like for any amount of money and I would probably do any gig I did like for free if I had to, so I'm pretty flexible. I mostly play for whatever the venue can genuinely afford.

If you really want an in-depth discussion of how the pros do it, there is a section in the book, "How to Make a Band Work" by Pete Wernick, published by Mel Bay, about fee setting. Wernick used to be in Hot Rize with Tim O'Brien. The book may be hard to find, though. It just went out of print this year, but you may be able to find a copy.

[BluegrassPhilfromFrance]

Ask to be paid in euros, it's a good deal now ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[GBG]

Or you can consult John Moore's book "How to Make $300 a Year (tax free) playing Bluegrass Music".

[Lee]

I'm a piano tuner and run into the same delemma. My customers are not just paying for my labor; they're paying for my skills. In your case they're paying for your artistry. There's no formula to set prices; merely guidelines. Mando Johnny summed it up really well.

[GTison]

WHAT DO OTHER "STYLES" OF BANDS MAKE? ASK AROUND. I LIVE NEAR THE BEACH AND AT THE BARS THEY PAY A ROCK BAND ABOUT 400 /NIGHT. I DON'T THINK IT'S UNREASONABLE TO ASK ANY LESS. THAT IS THE MARKET HERE. In times past things cost less. You just think about how much instruments have gone up in the last 3 years. Has your pay gone up?? 100 bucks is not alot to pay per man, but some will balk at it. I guess it depends on how much you want to play for pay and how much you want to play for free. I've got alot of time invested in each gig we play. NOT just the show wheather 30 minutes or 5 hours. I still have to be there, have to play, eat, spend time away from family at something I wouldn't be at otherwise. I don't feel bad asking anymore unless it's something I am personally involved in. THEN I would ask for my buddies because it is their time and not something they would normally do.

I sould hand this statement out when someone ask how much for the band to play at XYZ event. The fiddler has to be paid. ...' ever hear that?

[J. Mark Lane]

It is a dirty subject because discussing it in a forum like this can be construed as "price fixing," a criminal offense. Of course, I know that would not be your intent or anyone else's intent here, but we live in interesting times!
Well, with all due respect, I don't think the times are quite THAT interesting. <g> Price fixing means that competitors in the same market have privately agreed to charge the same price for the same product, thereby eliminating competition between them. A handful of musicians openly discussing what they might charge, to different clients, for a unique product (each band being different), is hardly price fixing. So, I wouldn't be too concerned about the Justice Department descending on us, quite yet.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I have a fair number of parties and socials. For a trio of musicians to play for an hour, I wouldn't think $300 would be unreasonable. (But I would expect them to be pretty good at that price.) We've recently hired a musician for a child's birthday party. She was good, she played for an hour, and we paid her $250. FWIW.

[mandroid]

Music, a business expense, playing recordings in a place of business is something they should also be paying fees for.
I dont quite get the calculation that live music must turn a profit in the till as it is being played, and not as a cost of running a public attraction.

[aimee]

Well, we kind of agreed to do this for sandwiches & cookies because it's my bosses' cronies, a lot of political types and it could work into something more.

No, I certainly don't want to imply that we want to engage in any type of price fixing! But there are those who play for a living, actual professional musicians, and we were thinking about being fair to them, too. I meant it as more of an ettiquette question.

We'll see how it goes first, before we start having the "Tour 2004" shirts printed up.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

You can't compare the amount of money one recieves playing at a bar to the amount one recieves while playing a private function. The biggest diff being the point of running a bar is to make a profit, this isn't the case for having a private party-parties always cost something if you do them right. Not to mention when you play at a public function there is the idea that you are getting some king of exposure, not happening in th same way at a private function. When asking for money remember the average person won't know the difference from what you are doing to what a proffessional touring band would do unless you are being compared next to each other or the person is a bluegrass/acoustic expert. You can charge what you can get and you shouldn't feel bad. You are spending time during the holidays away from your family/friends to do this and the client need not know you want to do this-that info is irrelevant. $100 a man is the absolute least you should probably charge, more if you think the guy has money, and throw in an extra hundred for you getting the gig, dealing with the hassle of having to come up with what to charge, and the general hassle of doing more than your bandmates.

[tiltman]

Our band has been playing coffee shops (tips) and small festivals, small venues (for free) for about a year. Last July we were asked to play at a private party (4th of July) and were paid $350 for about 2 hours. It was a blast and now we have some money for our "future equipment fund".

Anonymous (in case the IRS is watching http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[Lee]

And for those you who are organizing a private function with paid musicians; tips are appreciated, and you'll feel good too.

[jlb]

I, too, lived in a small town. I used to sit in with various bands for various amounts of money. After several years of dealing with nose-ringed kids asking to us to play "unplugged" Weezer tunes, 'necks asking us to distort our instruments to the tune of "Back in Black", and rich folks fu-fuing our low-brow mountain stylings, I set my price minimum at $200 and my maximum time at 3 hours. I have not been asked to play very many gigs since then.

Two bits of wisdom from this obvious disgruntled ex-gigger:

1) You can ALWAYS juice more money out of private parties than you can from bars. Most folks hiring bands for their parties already have money, and haven't a clue what they should expect to pay.

2) You're worth more than you or they think. People who will play for free beer or 20 bucks have all but desroyed the quality of music in my area, and also the image of musicianship as a worthwhile profession.

Add salt as desired.

[mandofiddle]

$300 for an hour of music for a trio is definitely NOT too steep. My four piece has played at parties and weddings in the past where we've played for an hour and gotten paid between $500 and $1000. Sometimes acoustic, sometimes amplified. It depends on the "client" and their budget. We ALWAYS get more for private events than we do at bar gigs. That's just the way it works.

I'd "feel them out". Ask them what they'd like to pay, and go from there. Obviously they're going to start out on the low end. When I quote a price for a private gig, I'll always start at $1000. Sometimes they say "Okay" without batting an eye. Other times it's a bargaining game.

[Gary S]

We play for free quite often when it is for a wortwhile cause or for friends. Other than that we play for no less than $100 per person. It doesnt matter if it is for an hour or for 3...Happy holidays...Gary S

[mandroid]

Set a different rate for first marrages,? versus 2nd, 3rd, etc.etc.?
Now,if, music was played at divorces, theres the big Bux... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Clyde Clevenger]

The business manager for our band owns a music store, a good one too. We call it Cherry Pickin' Time at Cartwright's. <G> The first question for any potential client is, "What's your budget?" That question sometimes surprises them, but let's them know that you are thinking of this as a business, not playing, working. We will play for free if the cause is good, but never for cheap.

[steve in tampa]

We always calculate a cost per hour per player. Usually ends up 50 -100. Lower end if we are having a good time, free drinks, and hang around a little longer.
If you don't charge a decent rate, you can't expect to be taken seriously! Just do it for free. Do take your breaks. 45-50 minutes of playing per hour. Sometimes we do 90 minutes and a 30 min break.
Read and work the crow accordingly, so you get remembered, invited back, and can charge more!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jim_n_virginia]

Yep I feel them out too. If it is a private party for some millionaire I will charge more than for say someones's birthday party who lives more modestly like me.

You can get more for weddings and company parties than a private party. And bars usually don't want to pay you squat. If you have a fairly large following sometimes you can get them to give you the door.

Also if we are playing without equipment (mixer, amps, speakers, mics etc.) in close quarters like a quiet house party we charge less.

It helps to find what the market in your area is. If you live in very small rural town you probably won't get as much as someone who lives in Manhattan. Talk to other musicians in your area who have been playing a long time. Keep in mind most exagerate a tad bit on what they get paid. I know I do! LOL!

I'll never forget what one of my early mentors once told me. He traveled the world for many years with a full magic stage show. He said that you are only worth what you charge. I believe theres a lot of truth in that.

A lot of people forget or don't realize music is a business....BIG business. And if you want to make a living at it professionally (even part time) or have dreams of making it big one day you HAVE to treat it as any business.

If you are an amateur or someone who plays merely for the love of music then there is nothing wrong playing for food and drinks at friends, co-workers and family get together.

But the musician or band who plays for free or cheap everywhere trying to get established who hasn't practiced enough or the band that isn't tight yet im MY opinion, hurts ALL his fellow musicians who HAVE praticed a lot and got there sets down and all the bands that are tight and professional and are trying to make a go of it.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[PlayerOf8]

I play with a partner, and $300 for an hour or so, makes me think that we would be prostituting ourselves. Our lawyer didn't give us a deal just because we were musicians, neither does the guy who works on my car, or the man who sells food for our table. Being musician is my job. I can not be afraid to charge for my talents.Maybe we lose a few gigs because of our fee, but we're still working almost a hundred nights a year, and we not going butt up while doing it.

GM

[GTison]

atlanta mike, I agree/ Jim I agree as well
you ARE only worth what you charge. A freebie is just that and if you play it you are worth every penny. Usually I find that you get NO respect from those you play for if you play for free. Granted there are time for playing for free. But ...

[WillPick4Beer]

a skilled tradesman should get about 40 to 50 bux an hour, so dont feel bad about overcharging. remember youre poor, they're rich, so dont feel bad about taking thier money. my typical rule is 100 bux per person plus what every you can wring out of them, and free beer. the only time i will go under that, is if i truley believe that the show will further the bands exposure tremendously to where you will see that money back . . . soon. alot of gigs at parties can suck, so make sure youre gettin paid. also it seems like im not too far awy from you(east of cleveland) so if ya need someone to fill in on an instrument let me know cus i really could go for some free beer.

[acousticphd]

Or, if these are friends or acquaintances, being offered free go of the food and drinks, and perhaps a small cash donation, might represent fair compensation. I would say maybe~$100 for the group, for an hour. Maybe less, maybe if they're offering, more. Unless these folks are lawyers or entertainment people, or something. Then skin them.

[mandowilli]

Christmas, New Years, and private partys are as good as it gets as far as gigs go in my neck of the woods.

Ask for 500 and take 300 for one hour, then when they want you to keep going you can get the rest.

willi

[mandowilli]

Ha! Jeff, talk about skinning them... I was doing a duo thing for a few years with this gal and we did a lawyers Christmas party in Melbourne, Florida. We got 500.00 for 2 hours. It was open bar. These guys were pounding the good stuff!
Near the end, they got into a tipping war. Nothing but 20's and 50's in the jar. I'll never forget it. Best night I ever had.

willi

[mingusb1]

Wanted to add a few comments:

-Consider "1 hour". #They will likely want you to play a little longer which turns into "free time". #

-Don't get too hung up on your "hourly rate", because it typically never figures in practice/prep time.

-$100/person sounds fine.

-But, some people don't know how to negotiate. #2 years in a row the same jerk asked about my bands services, and then simply said "too expensive", instead of a counter-offer.

-What other people in the area get isn't that important unless the party is getting other "bids".

-PA, I think it's fine to add a little to the fee if you need a sound system.

**Golden Rule--If you don't value your service, nobody else will.

Z

[Brian Ray]

I'll reiterate a lot of what is being said here. At first, players just want to play. Everyone does pro bono work at some point. No worries, you will learn exactly what your limits are with this in time... I promise. There are profits in giging besides money as well. What are you worth and what's it worth to you?

Besides normal expenses, I also gauge the pain factor. Pain incurs a service charge. More pain, more money. Pain can come from so many places... long travel times, long hours, a bride's mother, people you don't like, people that don't like you, any time the song "Freebird" is mentioned, number of times you'll be required to play Rocky Top (or worse), NASCAR/game/etc on the TV in the background... you get the idea.

On the other hand, there may also be perks wich lessen the price. Fun gig, good for exposure/advertising, cute waitresses, people you like, people you want to like you, cute waitresses...

$50-100 per set, per person is where I would start. Holidays and weddings are double. I would kick in a few bucks if a PA is required and then gauge the pain/perk factors and there you are.

[Dan Adams]

We never play for money because that would insinuate that we are a 'professional' band. We play out several times per year and with luck, one small festival per year. Never once have we been paid, although we get asked the question often. Taking money to perform would confuse us with real musicians that play music for a living. Collectively, we never want to put forth the impression, or try to compete with the real bluegrass musicians.

Will Play for Zuchinni! Dan

[Dennis Schubert]

Good advice, mandoholic. Business discussion ought to include budget, as well as time frame, special requests, PA needs (or not?), food, and other expectations. This can be done pretty casually, just like trading horses or mandolins. $50 to $100 per man is not much, when you consider hours from the time you leave your house until the time you return. Corporate functions and weddings are different than bars, remember that they may be spending $20 or $50 per person on food and booze, so what's a few more dollars for live music? Selling live music is just like selling any other service -- be flexible, give 'em their money's worth, put on a good show, but ask for what you're worth. We'll all benefit in the end, if there's good pay for pickin'.