Dovetail verses bolt on necks

[KitLarson]

Hi I have a ? for Big Joe,in your opinion is one better than the other as,what i think is that alot of the mandos made in the 90s and so on<Gibson,Flatiron>were bolted and only after Mr Derrington,made ones for Gibson with dovetails.Anyhow not beeing a builder would like to hear some feedback from the on hands guys.thanks dc

[mandroid]

My Godin A8 had a 3 bolt neck, like a Fender type guitar might.. DIY action changing was a snap..

my 1922 A's are dovetailed as I understand.

[Big Joe]

A proper fitted dovetail is a superior joint to anything else we have yet seen. It rarely needs to be reset and that is usually a result of poor care by the owner... left in the trunk of the car in high heat, left in an attic for years, etc. It can be reset if needed to deal with playability issues. It has been proven for a long time to be a reliable means of neck attachment. Some can argue the joint gives great neck to body attachment and improves tone as a result of this. I don't think that always the can be. It is certainly traditional for the Gibson/ Loar style instrument. Very few of the old Gibsons have ever needed a reset and have served very well. The only cases of needed reset is, as stated above,, the result of abuse in some manner.

Bolt necks can be very good. Just saying bolt neck gives a LOT of room for interpretation. There are several types in use and some are better than ever. The Gibson/ Flatiron era has more problems than the dovetails ever did. Over the years we have had to reset a bunch of these, but still a fairly small percentage of all those produced. The joint is decent, but not as solid as a good dovetail joint. I am not sure the bolts are the issue, though they do add a bit of weight to the front of the mandolin. That is a matter of balance and many do not notice it. I think the biggest issue is the mortise and tenon joints used by some. They can be more prone to release than a dovetail. Look at the way the mortise and tenon joins. It is not as tight a fit as a good dovetail.

That being said, Les Paul and SG guitars have used a form of mortise and tenon joints for a very long time. They rarely need to be reset and work very well. Of course, they have less tension on the joint than a mandolin. Any joint well done is better than any joint just done ok. Any joint can be subject to failure. Sometimes life just happens and any joint could come apart. The real issue is how tight the joint is in the white. If the bolts are just used to hold the joint tight while glue dries that is fine, as long as the joint itself is good. If it is not then all the bolts in the world don't help.

There are other issues in the discussion as well. What kind of adhesive is used for a particular joint can make a substantial difference as well. Anyone who insists only "X" glue will work for neck joints has not kept up with the science or applications of modern adhesives. Every adhesive, like anything else on a mandolin, has its place and use in luthiery. There are some adhesives we rarely or never use, but if we keep up with adhesive technology we can add some great tools to our building process that may help overcome problems we have had in generations past. For example, just imagine how much more difficult some jobs could be if we did not have cyanoacrylate (super glue). It is a staple on most builders benches for many jobs. In the times past these same jobs were far more complicated.

While I have a penchant towards a dovetail neck joint personally, it is not the end all in technology. Some builders have not used a neck joint at all, but the neck and headblock were one piece. I don't like that system at all, but it has been used with very few issues over time. We have seen a few of these that had to have repairs and were a bit more difficult to repair because there was no joint to use to make these adjustments.

The best advice I could give to a builder is to just ensure that whatever joint you use, make it as tight as possible. At Gibson we could fit a neck to a body and it was tight enough we could have left it unglued and it would likely never come loose. It was very tight. That good of a joint combined with a good glue and it was ready to go and would likely never need a reset unless it suffers some kind of abuse from heat or moisture. Even then it may not need a reset. I think a good mortise and tenon joint fit very tight at the right angle should be good as well, and if you choose to use bolts or not is secondary to a tight fit and properly clamped. Some use a butt joint and just bolt it on. It seems to work. It is probably my least favorite personal method, but if it works then more power to it.

As you can see, there are few absolutes in design and technology of neck joints as long as it is well fit and firmly attached it should be fine.

[pfox14]

I always associate a dovetail jointed neck with quality of workmanship especially when it comes to acoustic instruments. Electric guitars and the like are a whole other story. Bolt on neck electrics are much more common and acceptable, but as far as a mandolin is concerned, I would choose a dovetail neck instrument over a bolt on anyday.

[Buck]

Either will work and neither is the determining factor whether or not the instrument succeeds. Comparisons are difficult because we rarely have two instruments that identical EXCEPT for that one feature. My preference is for a dovetail joint, for the reasons stated in the posts above. Having said that, the two mandolins I currently play the most have bolt-on necks (an old Weber Big Sky and a Collings MF5). I bought them both because of the sound and feel, not the neck joint.

Now, if I commissioned an instrument and the builder was equally comfortable with a bolt-on arrangement or dovetail, I would choose the dovetail even if the cost was greater.

Ease of neck reset for a bolt-on neck is often touted as an advantage in the world of acoustic guitars, but that is not really relevant to carved mandolins. Flattop acoustic guitars will typically require a neck reset sometime in their life due to body distortion, not a shift in the neck joint. As Big Joe noted, this is not true with carved mandolins. Neck resets in carved mandolins are usually due to loose joints, and often from abuse or neglect.

[Charley wild]

Like Buck I bought my Stonebridge because I loved the way it played and sounded. I didn't realize it had a bolt-on neck until a few days after I bought it. It didn't concern me any then and still doesn't.

[fatt-dad]

There are two neck joints that use a bolt: The bolt-on neck and the mortise and tenon joint. For the latter, the "bolt" is primarily used as an internal clamp to allow the glue to dry. I'm not saying that you can remove the bolt and expect long-term performance, I'm just saying a bolt on neck seems like something if you remove the bolt the neck will come off. Taylor guitars use a bolt on neck. Martin's M&T neck joint also includes a bolt, but there's a glued surface.

I have a 28 year old Flatiron with no truss rod and a M&T neck joint that's just fine.

f-d

[Nick Triesch]

A proper fitted mortise and tenon with or without bolts is a superior joint IMHO. Collings mandolins build some of the best most solid perfect mandolins I have ever seen and heard and they do not use the old dovetail system. They use a mortise and tenon. Also Weber makes some super mandolins and they use mortise and tenon with bolts. Because of this I always think of very high quality mandolins having a mortise and tenon joint.

[Eric Hanson]

Big Joe,
As always, thank you very much for your insight. It is wonderful to have you as a fellow member of the cafe. Often we neophytes become very well educated from our reading of your thread entries. At some point I hope to build a ready-to-build kit, then one that needs a little work to complete, and finally one that is a from scratch build. With the knowledge you and others have shared through the years it will be a wonderful source of information when I run into questions and difficulties.

[doc holiday]

Collings mandolin necks are dovetail joined. Only the guitars are bolted

[Nick Triesch]

Sorry doc i called the collings shop in texas mandolins are mortise and tenon . Not dovetail .

[doc holiday]

Apologies nick...i guess you can't trust all the info out there...:)

[mandobassman]

All Breedlove mandolins have M&T with bolts as far as I know. I have never heard of any problems from Breedlove owners about neck issues. I have one and it is very solid. I believe Morris uses a M&T joint as well.

[Big Joe]

M&T joints are faster and less expensive to build so manufacturers love them. That does not mean they are superior. They are just easier to do in manufacturing. It is not a bad joint, but certainly not superior to a dovetail. I have seen joint issues with nearly every M&T joint. Not that it is a high percentage by any means, but far more than I have with good dovetails. Again, the quality of the joint and the adhesive used is far more important than the kind of joint. I prefer a dovetail, but I would rather have a good M&T than a bad dovetail. It is all in the quality of the joint more than which joint. They each have their positives and negatives.

[Nick Triesch]

Some of the most respected instruments in the world have a mortise and tenon joint or bolts. Collings and Weber mandolins and James Goodall guitars for example go over the top on build quality and fit and finish. Sorry, it is more than just a less expensive joint to make. Check out the detail on a MF5 or a Goodall Standard guitar. Do you really think James or Bill would spend so much time with attention to detail and then toss in a cheap neck joint? No way. They use them because they think it is a superior joint.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I just checked my MT-O Collings and theres definitely no visible bolts in the headblock.

[Nick Triesch]

You are right! When I called the Collings shop the lady told me that "They use a mortise and tenon joint like Weber but without the bolts, just glue".

[sunburst]

They use them because they think it is a superior joint.

Upon what do you base your insistence that a M&T is superior to a dovetail (which is, in fact, a tapered mortise and tenon)?
A mortise and tenon joint is neither superior nor inferior to a dovetail. Makers and manufacturers choose their neck joint according to how it fits into their manufacturing or building system and according to their own ideas and prejudices, not in accordance with their attention to detail on other parts of the instrument. There are many examples of builders of high quality, finely detailed, great sounding instruments using dovetail neck joints as well as many other joints.

[Jeffff]

I have a Martin D-15. 2 weeks ago I noticed the heel pulling away from the body. I was prepared to take it in and have the neck reset until I researched it a bit. The neck joint on Martin 16 series and lower guitars made after 1992 are all M&T with a single bolt to reinforce it. You have to pop off the S/N cover plate to access the bolt.

I was thrilled to find that it tightend right back up with no trouble at all. The guitar now plays beautifully again.

Knowing that Collings uses a M&T without a bolt now makes me a little uncomfortable about the long term integrity of the neck joint. There is no mechanical advantage to a M&t joint. The only thing holding it in place is the glue.

[MWCarr]

I'll admit that what I offer is not an apples to apples comparison. I've been building new and repairing historic timber frames for over thirty years. Also built most of the furniture we live with, All solid wood, all very traditional handcut joinery. The dovetail joint has one overarching weakness, it does not have continuous wood fiber on either the male or the female aspect of the joint. This makes it an inferior joint in timber joinery(where the shrinkage factor is another element). Again, I know its not a fair comparison, but the physics of wood to wood joinery are still the same. That being said, I have always used dovetails for all my furniture drawer work and love that joint as a solid and visually appealing way of joining wood at right angles. I also feel that if those wondeful craftsmen of old had had access to our modern fastners and adhesives they would have gladly used them. I currently play a collings guitar and mandolin and am completely confident that whatever way Bill Collings chooses to assemble his guitar and mandolin necks is good enough for me.

[MWCarr]

Apologies, there is continuous wood fiber in the moticed part of a dovetail joint assuming the tenon part is going into wood at a right angle, sorry. I am not coming down on either side of this argument just wanted to add some input from someone who has spent most of his adult life practicing and considering wood to wood joinery. As I indicated in the previous post, I am not a luthier but have spent over 40 years as a freelance and semiprofessional picker of acoustic instruments.

[sunburst]

FWIW, guitars (many of them) eventually need neck resets because of distortion of the entire guitar resulting from string tension. The joint is generally intact whether a dovetail, hardware, M&T, or other appropriate joint. When neck joints fail, it is invariably because of poor treatment, usually overheating (exceptions being some poor joints used on cheap instruments and some poor joints used in "the dark days"). When neck joints break, it is almost always the head block itself that breaks, or occasionally the neck heel, seldom the joint itself. In short, all joints have their advantages and disadvantages, and any well chosen joint, made properly, is plenty strong for a neck joint, and some have stood the 'test of time'. The joint is not the 'weak link' in the structure of the instrument.

[Jeffff]

Not to be argumentative...:), but My guitar was never over heated, over chilled, over or under humidified. I do use 13's on it but that doesn't seem overly large for a Martin dreadnaught. The joint just failed, or at least the glue did. It seems to be somewhat common, according to other forums. It also seems to be easily fixed.

Other than that I agree. The most common reason seems to be the top bellying.

I have done some internet searching and I can find no information on Collings mandolin necks coming loose at the joint.

[sunburst]

As for Martin's neck joint on some 16-and-under guitars, I don't think it's a very good joint, but it's cheap to manufacture.

[Big Joe]

Dovetail joints used in musical instruments is usually a compound dovetail joint and is extremely tight with great wood to wood contact. They insert very tight and make a great joint. Some are tight enough that glue could be eliminated and still have a pretty good joint. The glue just ensures the joint does not move. It is a much tighter and more secure joint than any mortise and tenon joint I have seen on an acoustic instrument.

There are better tools available today and some very great adhesives. If Lloyd Loar were building mandolins today I am sure he would be using some of our modern advances. Nonetheless, that does not change the quality of a particular joint. If you want to build an instrument with duplicable results in a manufacturing environment you want the easiest, most cost effective way to build. That is true whether it is Bill Collings or anyone else. Bill has his way of building and it works very well for him and if you are a fan of his instruments you will like what he does. That alone does not make his method of building better or worse than any other. It is just his. The argument that a particular builder uses a certain method does not mean it is superior or worse... just his method.

Having worked on instruments for a very long time in high volume shops both as repairing and building I have learned a bit. Working in a manufacturing environment has taught me even more. Each builder or manufacturer finds the most cost effective means to accomplish the goal they have and with the end results they wish to achieve. Each builder then uses those guides to make the product they do. Never assume any manufacturer does not look for the least costly means to do what they are trying to do. That includes choosing a neck joint or the hardware they use or the kind of finish they use. Cost is more important than most consumers realize.

Again, all this does not mean they don't make a good instrument, only that cost is a determining factor in any manufacturing facility. If you want to hit a particular market with a certain percent of profit then you find a way to do that and that is how the build is done. If cost were not a factor then all manufacturers would do things different from what they do but you would pay 20K for the mandolins you buy. If one is less expensive there is a reason and that is it cost less to build for some reason. That may be labor or machining or hardware quality or wood quality or ???

I have a preference personally, but again, either joint will work. That does not change the fact the M&T is easier and less expensive in a manufacturing environment. It may not be the only reason a builder would chose that method, but it certainly is a factor. There are many issues in building that make a difference in the end product and neck joint is only one. I don't think it is anything to get too hung up about as long as the builder does a good job with the joint he chooses.

I would be as or more concerned about finish, graduations, hardware, inlay, etc. as I am about just the neck joint. It is only one part of the whole. If everything else is done right and the joint is solid, then it is a good mandolin and worth considering. If any of the items are not done well then it may not be a good choice no matter the kind of neck joint. I might even put more concern on the kind of finish used than the neck joint.

[Nick Triesch]

When you really look close at a Collings MF5 the choice of wood selection is fantastic. Then you move onto the increadable workmanship, fit and finish , attention to detail and very consistant sound. I mean a lot goes into these mandolins. My friends MF-5 just blows me away every time I look at it and play it. Same goes for my 32 year old James Goodall guitar. All I am saying is that if the Collings folks spend all this extra time making their mandolins so perfect why would they use a neck joint that was not as superior (your first post Joe) to a dovetail joint. Just does not make sense. Sorry, the whole idea of the manufacturing environment does not wash.

[eastmanhoss]

Bolt on is the modern way in my opinion. Collins are modern........ But from a luthier standpoint, the bolt on would be easier to deal with on a reset if need be.

[Dfyngravity]

M and T, Bolt-on, dovetail...I really do not see one being so much more superior than the others that it would matter. I think that with all things alike, you are going to have the same results...and nice joint that will last a long time as long as it is not subjected to extreme conditions as others have mentioned. As long as the joint is done correctly, and you have a really nice tight fit and all surfaces are tight against each other with as close to 100% contract to one another I don't think one joint or the other would make a significant difference.

That being said, I think the strongest and most consistent joint is going to be the one that builder knows and feels the most comfortable doing 100% correctly, 100% of the time.

As far as one giving the instrument an overall better sonic quality, that's just too hard to give a definite answer. Everyone's perception of sound and quality of sound is different. Again, I think it goes back to the quality of the joint. As long as you have a really nice tight fit with as close to 100% contact on all surfaces than the difference in sonic quality from joint to joint is going to be too negligible to measure. The difference will be in a less than perfect joint where you have a little too much "wiggle" room or airspace that dampens the vibration, thus loosing sonic potential.

There can be a case made for any of the mentioned joints, but like I said, I think the most important thing is quality not type.

[multidon]

I have a Breedlove with a bolt on neck. Not sure if it has glue or not. The fit and finish on the rest of the instrument is fine so I have confidence in the neck joint too. But here is one thing that puzzles me. It does not need work at this time but I have been trying to find a luthier just in case for future reference. I contacted Acoustic Music Works in Pittsburgh, a place that gets rave reviews here. I was told by them that Breedlove does not have authorized repair centers, and on top of that they refuse to work on them beyond basic set up work. The reason I was given is they are unable to deal with the bolt on neck. I found this especially strange because the sell Breedloves but won't work on them. So if I ever need a neck reset my only option according to them is to send it to the factory. I always thought the point of a bolt on neck was to make neck resets easier, but apparently AMW is willing to do that work on traditional glued joints but not on Breedloves. Do any of you have any further insight on this?

[Dfyngravity]

I have a Breedlove with a bolt on neck. Not sure if it has glue or not. The fit and finish on the rest of the instrument is fine so I have confidence in the neck joint too. But here is one thing that puzzles me. It does not need work at this time but I have been trying to find a luthier just in case for future reference. I contacted Acoustic Music Works in Pittsburgh, a place that gets rave reviews here. I was told by them that Breedlove does not have authorized repair centers, and on top of that they refuse to work on them beyond basic set up work. The reason I was given is they are unable to deal with the bolt on neck. I found this especially strange because the sell Breedloves but won't work on them. So if I ever need a neck reset my only option according to them is to send it to the factory. I always thought the point of a bolt on neck was to make neck resets easier, but apparently AMW is willing to do that work on traditional glued joints but not on Breedloves. Do any of you have any further insight on this?

They probably do not want to do the work because it is something that they are not extremely familiar with and do not want the risk of further repairs...or maybe they are not authorized to do the work..warranty issue?...I don't know. But luckily for you, you are a member of a fantastic community here with plenty of builders and expert repair personnel alike....you should have no problem finding someone willing to take on a repair like that if it was ever to be an issue.

[Jim]

I have to wonder re the bolt on Breedlove neck. Do they often need resets? Do they ever? I'm thinking the shop in question doesn't have experience and thus , wisely, doesn't do them. The factory will if needed and IMHO that's the place to get that done. I don't live near and musical inst shops to speak of, but in reading advertisements "authorized Breedlove repair shop" is not a phrase that comes up much. As Big Joe pointed out most of the neck reset issues even on very old Gibsons are due to poor care and/or storage conditions. I bet most people that end up with a Breedlove take pretty good care of it and those that don't aren't looking for a repair at this point in time. Once they end up in an attic for 80 years,strung up to pitch, then we'll know about the quality of the neck joint.

[Jeffff]

There is an excellent article on Frets.com about reseting a bolt on neck for the guitar. Going with what Sunburst said, I can only see a mandolin needing a neck reset because of negligence.

[Big Joe]

We have done a couple Breedlove necksets. Any instrument can need a neck set at some time in its life. There are a LOT of things that can cause this.

Nick... Collings does have great fit and finish. It looks great. They have a manufacturing process that helps with this. They have machinery most manufacturers do not. This does not make their instruments better... or worse just because they are pretty. They have chosen a method to build that accomplishes their purposes and goals. Other manufacturers do things differently and they are just as good as Collings. Different yes, but just as good. Neck joint alone, as I've said before, is only one aspect of the build.

In addition, Collings mandolins have not been built long enough to know what may happen in the future. Give them another ten or fifteen years and we will see if they need to be reset. It would not surprise me either way. I doubt there will be large numbers of joint failures, but I am certain there will be some. That does not mean they are not good mandolins, only that they are mandolins.

If you don't think manufacturers of even high end instruments don't take into consideration everything in the budget to determine what they will do or how they will do it you are quite mistaken. Many decisions about how they will be built are considered before the first piece of wood is worked on. Bolt ons and M&T are certainly less expensive overall to do in a manufacturing setup and many manufacturing processes are decided by how the particular manufacturer decides he can build with the least amount of expense out front and the least amount of warranty issues. If they feel they can build with the M&T joint and it will be strong enough to do the job with minimal warranty issues, then that is how they will build. Many companies even take into consideration the cost of potential warranty repairs in deciding how to do certain processes. If it is cheaper to use a particular joint and they can save enough money even after considering warranty issues, then that is often how it is built.

I was not there when Bill Collings and his team made their decisions about how they chose to build. That is their business. However, I have been in those kinds of discussions and decisions about instruments and understand the process. This discussion is not about whether one or the other joint is good, but lots of other issues that have little to do with which is a good joint. Collings is only one of a group of excellent mandolins. Each has its own fans. If you are a fan of what they do then that is fine and enjoy it. However, just because they do something one way and others may choose another does not mean the others are not as good or superior. It is just a different way to do the same thing. As long as it works, who cares?

[Buck]

I would be as or more concerned about finish, graduations, hardware, inlay, etc. as I am about just the neck joint. It is only one part of the whole. If everything else is done right and the joint is solid, then it is a good mandolin and worth considering. If any of the items are not done well then it may not be a good choice no matter the kind of neck joint. I might even put more concern on the kind of finish used than the neck joint.I don't think you could stress that enough. As I noted previously, if I had to to pick a preferred neck joint, it would be the dovetail. It's strength is nearly all mechanical, with the glue playing a much smaller role. Many builders string up new acoustic guitars before gluing their dovetail neck joints.

Neither of my two current favorites ('99 Big Sky and '02 MF5) have a dovetail neck joint, but I own others that do. They've been well cared for and neither shows any issues with the neck joint. I'm not at all worried about them, but I wouldn't have picked those neck joints if I had a choice. Those builders are comfortable with their build methods and I liked those particular instruments.

I've seen "inside" of a lot more guitars than mandolins. Does anyone have pictures of the Gibson, Collings, and Weber (one example of each type) with the necks off? I'm curious exactly what they look like.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I'm not sure why somebody that sells Breedloves would be scared to work on them, thats sketchy. It was the one instrument I would feel comfortable working on and on their old website they had instructions on how to make most adjustments and all that. That being said, I never had a reason to work on mine, nor did I think I would ever have too.

[Nick Triesch]

I myself would have to go with the mortise and tenon. It has been used for thousands of years with no problem. I think I would just feel "safer" with a mortise and tenon joint on an instrument such as a Weber, Breedlove, Collings, Goodall, Bourgeois, Taylor, Froggy Bottom, and many high end Martins. In fact, I bet in a few years Martin will join the 21st century and go all the way to a mortise and tenon type of system. They have been switching over some of their models already that were dovetail.

[Jeffff]

For the record I have no problem with bolt on necks. I own a Collings and a Tacoma. Having said that, the "high end" Martins are all dovetailed.

[Buck]

In fact, I bet in a few years Martin will join the 21st century and go all the way to a mortise and tenon type of system. They have been switching over some of their models already that were dovetail.I do not believe that is true. CFM now has three basic divisions - economy (16 Series and below, all "new technology" M/T necks and new bracing patterns/materials), amplified performance (PA Series with most using the M/T necks and such), and the traditional (Standard Series and up).

They seem to be making firmer lines between these target market groups rather than blurring the lines. Take the Authentic line (my personal favorite) as an example. It uses hide glue and many prewar design and construction elements. IMO these are the best sounding and playing guitars Martin has made since the 1940's.

[Bill Snyder]

I agree that a mortise and tenon can be a good joint and if well executed might be as good as a dovetail but I don't understand someone that really knows how each joint works thinking it is better. Puzzling.
They both have a mortise and a tenon but the dovetail is tapered top to bottom and front to back, thus assured of a tight, self-locking fit if done correctly.
FWIW, the first mandolin that I built 8 years ago has a bolted on butt joint and it hasn't moved that I can tell. I guess I should mention that the top is glued to the neck between the fretboard and neck so that offers quite a bit of reenforcement but also means there is no way to fix it if the joint does move.

[sunburst]

...the top is glued to the neck between the fretboard and neck so that ... means there is no way to fix it if the joint does move.

It can be fixed, but it is a PITA.
Gibson notoriously (at least among repair people) did that on some guitars, glued the neck in then glued the top over the dovetail. It makes a relatively easily reversed joint (one of the advantages of a dovetail) into more of a challenge, but by cutting through the fret slot at the dovetail pocket, and through the top beneath in the center of the neck, it will come out. Here's one before I cleaned it up to re-set the neck.
Sorry for the thread hijack, carry on...

[Jeffff]

I'll bet that wasn't cheap. :cool:

[sunburst]

Well, that's the problem with stuff like that. You quote the usual price for a neck re-set and then you run into something like that. At least I knew what was probably happening when the neck wouldn't come out...

[Jeffff]

Life in the service industry...

[Nick Triesch]

I have been looking at a lot of guitar sites and forums and this subject really cracks me up. This battle has been going on for years with folks on both sides saying which joint is the best. I also belong to a huge Porsche forum and it is the very same thing with motor oil of all things. In the sportscar world oil is like a religion. There is one oil thread that is 88 pages long!!!! You got zinc content, 20/50, dino oil, synthetic and so on. I guess we all just like what we like (dino oil 20/50 with zinc and mortise and tenon and Colings MF-5 for me.) Nick

[Bill Snyder]

I did not mean to hijack things with mention of my neck joint but since you responded John my top goes about 3" up the neck. It is a flat top mandolin that you would have to see it to understand or at the very least I would have to give a very good description which is doubtful. :)

[Jeffff]

The problem I have with the neck joint on my D15 is not that it has a bolt. My problem is it only has one.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

But if the bolt is just used for setting, one shouldn't be an issue, right? Of course guitars are a totally different beast.

[Jeffff]

I have spent quite a bit of time on google searching for both Collings and Weber necks being loose or coming apart. I have found nothing.

On the Martin 15 and 16 series, there are a number of posts in different places.

[Big Joe]

Nick... The HIGH END Martins do not use a mortise and tenon joint, only the lesser expensive ones. They also don't use nitro on those models. Many of them use plywood in many areas as well. That does not make them bad guitars, but the high end Martins are made essentially the same way they have been made for well over 100 years. Dovetail neck joints.

Bourgeios guitars (Dana is a cool guy) really changed my mind about bolt neck instruments. He truly uses a bolt neck system that is different from other builders. He builds some of the best guitars on the planet. They play great, and sound great, and I am a big fan. However, even his need to have the neck set sometimes. Any guitar or mandolin may need a neck set. It is just part of the life of many instruments. That is rarely a quality issue and not dependent upon the way the neck is joined. M&T joints will usually suffer a higher rate of failure, but can (sometimes) be easier to reset.

The bolt system is certainly easier for a builder and easier to set things up for neck angle and getting them straight side to side than a dovetail neck joint. Again, it is not whether one method is superior as how well the joint chosen is executed. Neck sets on older guitars are normal maintenance like valves on your car if you keep it long enough, though most cars won't last 30 years before needed a valve job.

[Buck]

Acoustic guitars keep coming up, but the typical neck set on an older acoustic guitar (flattop) is not due to joint failure. In fact, the joint it usually quite secure. Body deformation changes the angle of neck to the body of the guitar and neck angle has to be corrected to get a playable action with reasonable bridge and saddle heights.

Failed neck joints in mandolins or Martin M/T necks are something else entirely.

[Nick Triesch]

I find it interesting that Collings spends so much time on super fit and finish and very over the top consistant sound and they use an easier mortise and tenon joint while Gibson uses the much harder dovetail join with in many cases a much more ordinary fit and finish. Very strange indeed!

[Marc Berman]

I find it interesting that Collings spends so much time on super fit and finish and very over the top consistant sound and they use an easier mortise and tenon joint while Gibson uses the much harder dovetail join with in many cases a much more ordinary fit and finish. Very strange indeed!

I think it's what each maker prefers. Yes some of the top makers Collings, Weber... use MT joints but others, Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, Derrington, Smart, Red Diamond, Wiens ... prefer Dovetail joints. As others have said - if done well either one does the job.

[PlaneSimple]

As an owner of a very nice neck-through Rickenbacker bass guitar that has survived nearly forty years of hard rock band playing, including high school bands, traveling, dropped at least a few times out of case, dropped many times by "roadies", left in cold vans on freezing nights, scorching nights etc .. and never even had a neck adjustment.. only frets ground and crowned, I am very curious why single piece headblock/neck seems to be a cut below the dovetail or pegged M/T or screws. If I break the neck of my prized bass.. I would be SOL and have a very expensive piece of junk.. I can accept the same for my other instruments. Excepting the acoustic guitar series.. but certainly for the more robust mando build. But in my admittedly limited experience and reading.. a neck reset is really not all that common among the known makers for natural stress reasons and is certainly not something the average player would do without major experience or desperation. It seems too that, what I will call " neck-through" (into head-block) would be strongest and transfer vibration better. Maybe I am wrong, as an outsider to production luthiery. My 2 cents. What do you guys/gals think? is it merely a matter of wood supply/grain direction?