Early Italian (?) Flatback

[vic-victor]

Hi all. I came across an interesting old flatback. The seller insists it is as early as late 19 century. The tuners, neck and bridge style suggest it's Italian. No label, just the number at the headstock 9168.

Anyone knows anything about the age and origins of this mandolin? Thanks.

834468344783448

[vic-victor]

83452 One more pic

[Jake Wildwood]

It's very interesting. The binding and purfling style is very Portuguese/Spanish in nature, as is the neck-to-body joint. The pickguard, bridge, tailpiece, and headstock recall Italian instruments but the enclosed tuner plates remind me of American bowlbacks.

Just judging on hardware alone I'd guess 1900-1910.

[vic-victor]

Thanks, Jake. I agree that the instruments is most likely European made. It is in Russia at the moment and looks like has been for quite a while. Unlikely an American, as pre 1917 Russia didn't have much contacts with USA in terms of import etc. I know that late 19c Russian musical dealer Zimmerman used to import Puglisi bowlbacks into Russia, one can still find a few there. I also came across Calace's, but they could have been a later individual imports.

I wonder if they've made flatbacks in Europe before Gibson? I've heard Vinaccia made one. From the other hand Portuguese made their guitarras way before that, so they could have made the ones like this back then?

[Tavy]

Very curious: the hardware is all typically Italian (even the enclosed tuners were used on better quality Neapolitan bowls), but the body design looks fairly "modern". So I'd guess more recent than 1900, maybe 20's or 30's but probably not post-war with that hardware. All guesswork though without a makers name...

[vic-victor]

Possibly a local luthier used parts from an old bowlback? But I won't be surprised if a whole thing came from the guys like Puglisi. If it's the case it's quite a find isn't it? But you are right, it's nothing but guesswork at this stage.

[TijnBerends]

I just fell in love with that tailpiece - I know musicians who'd give their eye for such a beauty:)

[Jim Garber]

Scratchplate sort of resembles Carlo Albertini Lombard type of mandolin. Not sure if he made flatbacks.

The neck join does not resemble the std Napoli bowlbacks.

[Jake Wildwood]

Very curious: the hardware is all typically Italian (even the enclosed tuners were used on better quality Neapolitan bowls), but the body design looks fairly "modern". So I'd guess more recent than 1900, maybe 20's or 30's but probably not post-war with that hardware. All guesswork though without a makers name...

German design could be a guess. That neck joint style was used all over on waldzithers and the like. It would be interesting to know if the heel is built in the Spanish tradition or a dovetailed style.

[Jim Garber]

I don't know... I would lean toward Italian (note Tavy's observations about the hardware) plus the DeMeglio-style tensioner and bridge -- it looks like a brass bar for the saddle (very DeMeglio). My other guess would be French. This is merely a hunch but for some reason German does not register with that headstock -- they tended toward slotted Embergher styles. This is really based on nothing but my gut feelings since I do not have access at the moment to my catalogs or picture files.

[Jake Wildwood]

I don't know... I would lean toward Italian (note Tavy's observations about the hardware) plus the DeMeglio-style tensioner and bridge -- it looks like a brass bar for the saddle (very DeMeglio). My other guess would be French. This is merely a hunch but for some reason German does not register with that headstock -- they tended toward slotted Embergher styles. This is really based on nothing but my gut feelings since I do not have access at the moment to my catalogs or picture files.

Oh, I agree on the Italian bit entirely -- the pickguard style is enough to convince me, there. I'm just wondering where they got the idea for that very waldzither/Portuguese guitar heel type.

[Jim Garber]

Here's a flatback by Luigi Gagliani from Dave Hynd's site. Not exactly the same but Italianoid nonetheless.

[Plamen Ivanov]

I don't think it's early and i don't think it's Italian. While there is indeed a Russian connection, Zimmermann was a company active in whole Europe and having its headquarters in Germany. Zimmermann opened a factory in the famous musical instruments builder town of Markneukirchen. Since the body of that particular one looks much more German than Italian to me, i would rather think that if there is a Zimmermann connection at all, it should be the factory in Markneukirchen. So, my guess is - a German instrument, despite the Italian hardware. My Italian Puglisi bowlback has a tailpiece "Made in Germany", so it is not unusual.

[Jim Garber]

You could be right, Plamen and I agree that it is prob not early. I will check some of my German catalog files and see if I can come up with anything. This could also be a corss-cultural anomaly or a one-off made by a single luthier shop.

[Plamen Ivanov]

This could also be a corss-cultural anomaly or a one-off made by a single luthier shop.

Hi Jim,

Yes, most probably a cross-cultural anomaly it is. May be someone saved the hardware of a dead Italian bowlback and put it on a German (or of other origin) instrument later. We will never know...

There is an apparent resemblance with the Gagliani flatback but there are also major differences - round vs oval hole, flat soundboard vs bended top, pear vs almond shape of the body, the headstock, the number of dots and frets.

[vic-victor]

There is a Gagliano flatback on ebay at the moment. Looks a bit different.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Mandolin-Gagliano-Very-good-condition-Italian-eighteen-hundreds-/280838504875?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41634781ab

[Plamen Ivanov]

Looks a bit different but still very similar to the one we are discussing. Jim is right. Gagliano is the best guess so far.

The tailpiece looks just like the one on my Puglisi. I bet it stays Made in Germany on it. Of course, it only refers to the tailpiece not to the mandolin. But it is interesting anyway. The German Italian connection is somehow still in the air.

[Jim Garber]

Dave's pic is is a Gagliani and the eBay is a Gagliano (different vowel ending).

BTW I bet the Gagliano tp says Marcello on it.

[vic-victor]

Just had a look at someone's vinaccia http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?55712-my-Calace-and-Vinaccia&highlight=calace and it's headstock style is almost identical to the "Russian" one. Despite of many of you think it is not as early an instrument, I am more and more convinced it is made by Vinaccia in 19c.

[Jim Garber]

I don't think it is Vinaccia. You can't just go by the headstock. Here are two similar ones: a Martin, a Vega and a Stahl. That style with the heart-shaped cutout was pretty common on both sides of the Atlantic. I don't recall ever seeing any flatback Vinaccias (tho it may have just slipped my memory).

[vic-victor]

Well, maybe not. Like with the guitars, every famous maker tried to make their headstock distinct, but later it was copied by the others. All those ones you referred to are similar, but not quite the same. While the Russian one is identical to Vinaccia down to the very little detail. Plus tuners are very similar to the ones used by Vinaccia at a time. I read somewhere that Vinaccia pioneered flatback mandolins in 19c, but it didn't take off then so their flatbacks are very rare these days. If it was the one, it would certainly be a museum piece worth $1000's, but I guess at this stage it's just wishful thinking.

[Jim Garber]

I have over 120 examples of photos of Vinaccia bowlback mandolins and even within the files the cutout headstocks do not always match. Yes the tuners may be the same but I doubt that Vinaccia made them nor did they have an exclusive arrangement. You also can't just base it on the headstock. I am not ruling it out altogether, just am skeptical. If you can find some source or confirmed photo of a flatback made by Vinaccia, that would be real helpful.

[vic-victor]

I suggested to the owner to inspect mandolin internally and he was able to find a stamp on one of the braces which looks like bass clef, then an exclamation mark and then another bass clef inverted and upside down. All this in quotes "like this" Anyone seen such a stamp?

[vic-victor]

Hi all. I found a bowlback "brother" of a "Russian" flatback on ebay. The makers mark is the same. Have a look. Anyone has an idea who the maker is????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-AND-RARE-ITALIAN-NAPLES-NAPOLI-SIGNED-MANDOLIN-/230716932186?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b7cd005a

83985839868398783988

It's getting curiosier and curiosier... Looks like a Vinaccia clone, but who is the bloody maker?

[Plamen Ivanov]

Now this one looks much more Italian than the flatback. I would say a pretty typical Neapolitan bowlback. The scratch plate pattern, the bridge and the tailpiece look exactly the same like the ones on the flatback, so both mandolins most probably come from the same builder. No idea about the makers mark. Looks like "CiO" to me.

[Jim Garber]

Ok, folks... thru my usual haphazard detective work, which usually consists of looking for something else, I have uncovered the maker and the country of origin. I guess we just couldn't really read the brand inside. I think Plamen guessed right. It was made in Germany by the Cid company of Markneukirchen.

Take a look at these links. The seller has no info other than these are made in Germany. He does picture a copy of a catalog page but it is too small to read.

Cid Tenor Banjo#1 (http://www.banjoworld.de/High288.htm)

Cid Tenor Banjo #2 (http://www.banjoworld.de/High291.htm)

Cid Tenor Guitar #1 (http://www.banjoworld.de/High289.htm)

Cid Tenor Guitar #2 (http://www.banjoworld.de/High290.htm)

I just did some more searching and found this quote on the Banjo Hangout Forum from an email from the owner of the above site mentioning yet another Cid banjo:


-The Cid banjo’s were build in Marktneukirchen. Their were distributed by “Firma Gebrüder Schuster”. Most of them were made for export. A great number of them went to Scandinavia.
Since Adolf didn’t liked Jazzmusic, he also hated banjo’s. Most of Germans banjo manufacturers stopped building banjo’s and almost everything related to the building and history of the banjo is lost in the mist of history.-

Frank Nordberg of Musica Viva (http://musicaviva.com/instruments/gallery/display.html?serienr=23486)has an image from a catalog page (possibly the same one that the banjo world pictures) and he says you can buy a CD of the catalog that it appears in from him on eBay.

Frank also has a listing with a catalog cut of a mandolin (http://musicaviva.com/instruments/gallery/display.html?serienr=23430) from the same company. He says this is a house brand from Gebrüder Schuster, so it is likely that these were built by various sources in Markneukirchen which like Mirecourt in France and Chicago in the US, big centers of musical instrument manufacturing.

[vic-victor]

Wow - very impressive. Thanks Jim, Plamen and everyone else. Mystery revealed.

[Jim Garber]

Here is a page from the Gebrüder Schuster catalog showing Cid bowlbacks. They were obviously copying the Italian makers including de Meglio, Vinaccia and (on other pages) Embergher. These were from a CD of German instrument catalogs I got from Christian Steinbrecher. The other page shows accessories including the ornate tailpiece that is on the mandolin in the first posting.

There are two Schuster catalogs but this is the only one that mentions Cid as a brand. I imagine that that flattop comes from a later catalog tho there are some flattops which are termed Portuguese in this catalog.

[Plamen Ivanov]

Great job, Jim! Thanks! Very interesting. Here (http://www.schlaggitarren.de/home.php?text=hersteller&kenn=41) some more information about CiD and other marks used by Gebrüder Schuster like Waco, Tartini, Spannfix, Motorboot, Stier, Martinelli, a.o.
84077

[vic-victor]

Plamen, this is probably where your Puglisi tailpiece came from. Interesting, I wondered why some of the same models bowlbacks ofthen had different tailpieces. Apart from the later modifications the original owners also had an option for an upgrade. I've heard the service in the good old days was a lot better:)

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hi Vic,

No, the tailpiece on my Puglisi is branded with the mark Marcelli plus the design is different from those listed in the CiD catalogue. But it sure comes from Germany as well.

Thanks for the quest! :-) It was fun!

[Jim Garber]

Great site, Plamen!! Another mystery solved by the Mandolin Detectives!!

Thanks for the link. I really should learn to speak and understand German (and Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Bulgarian, etc.)