Why not to buy a Morgan Monroe

[tc9486]

Hi,

I just bought my first mandolin off ebay. It's a Morgan Monroe MMS-9FE.

Somehow, someone at the factory left out the truss rod!

Here's some photos:

8341983418

Luckily, the dealer in the States is refunding my money but I am still stuck paying for return shipping for a $550 piece of firewood.

My advice to anyone buying a mandolin would be to shop around until you find one you've actually seen/played before forking out the cold hard.

Thanks

[Jeff Hildreth]

Contact Morgan Monroe directly.

Paying return for a defective instrument is not part of the buyers "gamble" or responsibility.

The dealer should have sent a call tag to have it picked up.

The dealer owes you the shipping.

[Big Joe]

Buying off ebay probably indicates it was used. Therefore Morgan Monroe will not be responsible and the seller is likely in the clear. Used items are often considered as is and little recourse. It is probably better to take your loss and go on. Not everything bought from everywhere is firewood and you can buy a very nice mandolin for a fair price from dealers who care about the customer and the instrument. Don't judge everyone by that one sale. Besides, there are better instruments for the money.

[tc9486]

Buying off ebay probably indicates it was used. Therefore Morgan Monroe will not be responsible and the seller is likely in the clear. Used items are often considered as is and little recourse. It is probably better to take your loss and go on. Not everything bought from everywhere is firewood and you can buy a very nice mandolin for a fair price from dealers who care about the customer and the instrument. Don't judge everyone by that one sale. Besides, there are better instruments for the money.
No, it was new from a dealer in the States.

[tc9486]

Morgan Monroe haven't gotten back to me as yet but the dealer says, although neither of us should have to be, that we're responsible for return shipping.

I then also have the hassle of withdrawing money from Paypal, which I've heard is quite difficult, should I choose to not buy another mandolin from ebay. I don't have a lot of money so the money I get back from this will go towards another mandolin...

[Mike Bunting]

What would be the point of shipping it back, you had your money returned, the store owns it again and they can do what they want with it.

[Bernie Daniel]

What would be the point of shipping it back, you had your money returned, the store owns it again and they can do what they want with it.

Good point. But I assume he only gets his money back if he ships it back? That was not made clear. Wondering what kind of QC lets one get all through the process with no truss -- at minimum the person screwing down the truss cover might have noticed? Also it says something about the factory set up I guess! :disbelief:

[Folkmusician.com]

The Truss rod on an MMS-9FE is back behind the nut. There would be a 4mm allen head. Just wanted you to be sure, since I can't really tell if there is one there from the photo.

I recall a few years back, that a popular brand had an entire run of one model without truss rods. Quite a few were shipped out to dealers before it was caught. :)

I am kind of surprised that the dealer wouldn't cover the return shipping. Morgan Monroe is very good about warranty claims. The dealer is supposed to submit the claim though.

[Mike Bunting]

There is no way in hell that you should be out any money at all. You purchased an item that purported to be something that it is not, that is, complete. You are owed your money, you are responsible for nothing.

[tc9486]

Good point. But I assume he only gets his money back if he ships it back? That was not made clear. Wondering what kind of QC lets one get all through the process with no truss -- at minimum the person screwing down the truss cover might have noticed? Also it says something about the factory set up I guess! :disbelief:
Yes, the dealer will only refund my money if I return the item. Pain in the neck (no pun intended).

[tc9486]

The Truss rod on an MMS-9FE is back behind the nut. There would be a 4mm allen head. Just wanted you to be sure, since I can't really tell if there is one there from the photo.

I recall a few years back, that a popular brand had an entire run of one model without truss rods. Quite a few were shipped out to dealers before it was caught. :)

I am kind of surprised that the dealer wouldn't cover the return shipping. Morgan Monroe is very good about warranty claims. The dealer is supposed to submit the claim though.

There is actually an empty cavity in the shaft where the truss rod should be.

I am also annoyed the dealer won't cover return shipping. Still, better to play nice and at least have them be cooperative than have to dispute it through someone in ebay who most probably won't know how integral truss rods are to the structure of an instrument.

[tc9486]

Contact Morgan Monroe directly.

Paying return for a defective instrument is not part of the buyers "gamble" or responsibility.

The dealer should have sent a call tag to have it picked up.

The dealer owes you the shipping.

I have contacted Morgan Monroe. No response as yet.

[Patrick Hull]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on Morgan Monroe to do anything.

[Mike Bunting]

Yes, the dealer will only refund my money if I return the item. Pain in the neck (no pun intended).
That is outrageous, that dealer sold you a faulty product, I'd call the Better Business Bureau.

[tc9486]

That is outrageous, that dealer sold you a faulty product, I'd call the Better Business Bureau.

All well and good, but I live in Australia and the dealer's in the U.S.A.

[Bernie Daniel]

All well and good, but I live in Australia and the dealer's in the U.S.A.

Well if you bought this on eBay and paid with PayPal I think they will eventually make the dealer refund you. Maybe he is waiting to get it back before he refunds you? Not sure why he would do that but......... What is the seller's feed back score on eBay? I think you said he had an eBay store? That being the case I think in the end he will have reason to work with you.............

[Mike Bunting]

Who is the dealer?

[tc9486]

The dealer has a 99.7% positive rating and a score of 6505 so I really don't think that they've intentionally deceived me. Still, the neck is noticeably bowed and I think that they were pretty inept in not picking up the problem before selling the item.

I've just asked them to pay for all the costs and would really prefer not to publicise their name until I hear back. It's the middle of the night in Florida so I should hear back sometime around midnight my time.

[mrmando]

I'm not sure it's within forum guidelines to name the dealer here. That might amount to using the Cafe for leverage in a bad transaction. Advice is OK; leverage is not.

Try calling PayPal customer service. You can open a "Substantially Not As Described" claim with PayPal and really make the dealer's life complicated.

I've never had a problem getting money out of my PayPal account. It's connected to my bank account, and withdrawing money from PayPal into the bank account is a very simple matter.

[Barry Wilson]

you could always start a paypal dispute. it doesn't have to be accelerated to an actual dispute but you have that option.
I understand too well. my pro setup mando off ebay came with a left handed bridge and rust on strings and metal parts. the cost of shipping back was more of a pain because I am out of country too. I should have tried other things myself but it was a low end mando and I just got a bridge and strings locally and fixed it myself

[tc9486]

Are there any safety guidelines in place for buying mandolins advertised on Mandolin Cafe?

[DamonIRB]

For what's it's worth, I own a Morgan Monroe, MMS-8S, and absolutely love it. It is an excellent mandolin - well made, and has a great sound/tone. The setup from the dealer was exceptional and I couldn't be happier.

I feel bad for you, but making Morgan Monroe out to be a bad manufacturer over an issue with one mandolin isn't quite fair. Just as it wouldn't be fair to say they are a great manufacturer because I happen to have a nice mandolin from them. Morgan Monroe mandolins, just like numerous other manufacturers, are being built in China these days. This is an unfortunate oversight that could have happened with any manufacturer.

I agree that you shouldn't be out any money and shouldn't be responsible for a manufacturing flaw, but I don't think it's fair to condemn Morgan Monroe for an isolated incident.

Just my two cents...

Damon

[rgray]

If you qualify, PayPal Purchase Protection covers "Significantly Not As Described" which includes if "The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in its description when you bought the item." So this seems to fit your case.

PayPal would rather you resolve directly with the Seller. If no resolution, your first action is to open a Dispute within 45 days. PayPal then wants you to continue to work with the Seller. If no resolution, your next action is to escalate to a Claim within 20 days.

If PayPal finds in your favor on your Claim, PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs. For Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claims, PayPal may require you, at your expense, to ship the item back to the Seller, or to PayPal, or to a third party and to provide proof of delivery. PayPal will not reimburse you for the return shipping costs that you incur to return a Significantly Not As Described item to the Seller or other party specified by PayPal. PayPal will generally require the buyer to ship an item that the buyer claims is SNAD back to the Seller (at the buyer’s expense), and PayPal will generally require a Seller to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs.

The above is basically cut-n-paste from the PayPal User Agreement located at:

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US

(I am assuming that the same agreement applies in Australia.)

My take - It seems that what the Seller is offering you now will probably be the final answer by PayPal. Maybe Morgan Monroe will step in but that may be doubtful. As for the Seller wanting a return BEFORE issuing a refund, I can't blame him. Sucks for you but he doesn't know you from Adam so how would he know you aren't lying?

[tc9486]

I put the same photos in my email to seller as I did on this site.

It was also sold w/case and they forgot to ship the case.

They also charged me US$79.50 for postage that came to US$63.59 (says on postage receipt).

[sunburst]

I looked at the first (rather fuzzy) picture and thought I saw an Allen socket in there, so I read the posts to see if anyone mentioned it, and found where Robert Fear did, in fact mention it. I declare, it still looks like an Allen socket in there to me. Just to satisfy my mind, would you mind explaining how you determined that there is no rod? Did you insert something into the void in the neck? Did you try to fit an Allen wrench into the socket?

[almeriastrings]

This is one of the huge issues when purchasing internationally. You get hit for very high shipping costs inwards, plus any taxes or duty, and should something be seriously wrong, as in this case, returning an item can cost an arm and a leg. Unfortunately, also, when purchasing between continents, many of the normal consumer protection safeguards either do not apply or are impossible to enforce. This is why, where possible, it is best avoided. Even though you are not at fault at all here, you lose. Paypal can certainly force the dealer to refund - but as already noted, they may require you to return the item (tracked) at your expense. From Australia to the US that is far from cheap. You will also not normally get a refund for any duty or import taxes paid (there are procedures for this in some cases, but it can be very complex). I would look to source your instruments in Australia next time. Might cost a bit more upfront, but at least if something like this happens, you are in a far stronger position.

Having taken a close look at your first pic, I see something metallic there too. If there was no rod, there should just be an empty (wood) channel. It looks like there could be a rod in there, way back under the nut?

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm not sure it's within forum guidelines to name the dealer here. That might amount to using the Cafe for leverage in a bad transaction. Advice is OK; leverage is not...

Correct.

From the Posting Guidelines:

Grievances, personal and corporate: The Cafe discussion forum is intended to be a nurturing community. While it is fair game discussing vendor corporate policies, malevolent harassment of individual employees, including posting names, email address, or any other personal contact information will not be tolerated. For example, a concern about a manufacturer's warranty policy or a reseller's return policy is permissible. Using the forum to malign or leverage personal advantage in a conflict is strictly forbidden. Though intent or motivation are not always provable, the moderators reserve full right in deeming whether or not comments made are consistent with policy, and may take action to edit, delete, or when necessary, revoke posting privileges.

[tc9486]

It is a completely round hole running down as far as I can see. Being a guitarist, I have assumed until now that the truss rod is adjustable with a socket set, not an Allun key.

Trying to find my Allun keys to make sure but not overly confident.

[sunburst]

Being a guitarist, I have assumed until now that the truss rod is adjustable with a socket set...

Being a repairman, I've long since given up assuming anything when it comes to truss rods in unfamiliar instruments. I have several bent, welded and otherwise fabricated wrenches in a drawer. I had to make them to perform a $5 adjustment on various guitars!
Try a broom straw, a guitar string, anything long and thin as see if it goes all the way into the neck, and if not, try a 4mm Allen, and if either of those gets to the bottom of the situation, my curiosity will be satisfied.

[tc9486]

Thanks Sunburst. It seems to be there, but stripped. This is nowhere near as bad as first assumed.

I will leave this post up for the next day so people can see how stupid I am then take it down. It's still not ideal having a stripped truss rod socket on a new mando. Time to go get some powdered graphite...

[mrmando]

If the shipper forgot the case, it's still Substantially Not As Described, and you are owed a case with free shipping.

The neck is still bowed, and if the truss rod is stripped, you can't use it to do anything to help the neck. So it's still a problem.

The postage amount doesn't include insurance, so that might account for the discrepancy.

Oh, and you can't take down your posts once they are posted.

[trevor]

The supplier should refund you all costs as a matter of good business practice.

[rf37]

Sorry to hear of your trouble. I have had 3 Morgan Monroes. The first an MMs8 had an issue with truss rod. The process of getting another was very good. I dealt directly with their indianapolis hub. They did all the calling and talking for me. I bought online and the Dealer Was awsome with the situation. (Alway use a reputible dealer. Folkmusician, The Mandolin Hut, Big Joes etc etc.) I only say these through personal experience I had to do some driving but in the end it was worth it for the mandolin. The replacement was great. The other was an oval hole A and the top caved in. Once again avery pleasing ending. I ended up tradin both in for "The Loar 500" when all was said and done. But the dealers I dealt with were second to none. Here is a link to SHS http://www.shsint.net/index.php Deal with them and let them take care of you and see if you have a better response. It was Carey Jones I dealt with. I think she is married so her last name may be different no but the number is 800-475-7686

Good luck my friend

[Jim Rowland]

I agree with John. That is a rather confusing image to begin with,but you have to wonder what that ringlike object in the center under the nut is,if it isn't a truss rod.
Jim

[Jim Rowland]

Sorry for the misplaced post. I didn't realize there was a page two. Are you sure it's stripped? Did you try both metric and standard wrench sizes?
Jim

[Folkmusician.com]

I snapped a pic of one I have here....

The truss rod is in there much further than it looks..

83442

If the instrument was sold as new by a dealer and there was no mention of "as is", they are liable for this. Now eBay sellers make virtually no profit, and their business models are not usually customer friendly, but that doesn't change the fact that they are at fault here. I have no doubt that you can force them to cover shipping.

....Hey, I just missed the second page as well!

Sometimes it takes some fiddling to get the allen wrench in there. Like John, I have various lengths and angles of allen wrenches to get to these. It may be stripped, but usually it is just hard to get the wrench in.

Be sure you are using a 4mm. :)

[hedgehog]

My mandolin has a similar set-up. The first time I tried to adjust the rod it felt like the wrench was ingaging, but it actually wasn't. A bit of fiddling later the wrench dropped in the socket, but it was far deeper than expected. A nice deep socket makes for a solid engagement area. Yours might actually be okay just a bit difficult to get your wrench seated properly.

[tprior]

How was it determined there is no truss rod ? That would be my question as well. If we are expecting to see the NUT from the truss rod after removing the cover , it ain't there !

I too am curious, how was it determined there is no truss rod ,it may very well be down the hole out of sight. But then again..maybe it is missing...

[tc9486]

I've got it to move using powdered graphite. I'm using a 4mm but it's still slipping and needs powdering up and a fair bit of fiddling around after every turn. I also broke a string in the process but was gonna get new ones anyway.

Gonna wait until the light strings I've ordered arrive (I live in a small town in Australia where I'd be one of the only mandolin owners so can't buy 'em locally) to properly get it right as the different tension may mess with the neck.

The dealer has said that the case is on the way. Still a bit annoying as I'm apprehensive about taking it on a train for a practise this Sunday without a case.

Overall, it's still probably not the best for the money. Wish I'd found this site before buying it. The binding (particularly around the horns) is pretty rough and I don't imagine getting much more than a year out of it before upgrading. The advantage is, it has a cheap Fishman (a brand I haven't been a fan of since I discovered L.R. Baggs) already installed so that saves the hassle of installing one myself and will do the job for now. It's not as though I'm a mandolin virtuoso - I didn't even realise that a lot of them had socket truss rods. :redface:

[houseworker]

It still sounds as though you've not managed to get the allen key fully into the socket. I can't see how the graphite powder is supposed to help.

I presume you know to release the string tension before you attempt to adjust the truss rod?

[Steve L]

There might be a truss rod wrench in the case.

[hedgehog]

You will find adjusting the rod easier .... no much-much-much easier when the string tension is reduced. I'm in agreement with the above poster. try getting the wrench in then tap it with a hammer... remember your not driving nails, just a few taps. Like I wrote above, these sockets are deeper than you would expect.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Trevor - "The supplier should refund you all costs as a matter of good business practice.". I agree Trevor,but not all suppliers subscribe to your higher brand of trading ethics.
A question - Would the truss rod adjustment bolt on a Morgan Monroe brand instrument be a 'generic' type,available from another supplier ie. Stewmac ?. If so,i'd be tempted to remove the existing one & replace it if it's possible.The hex.socket in the existing one seems quite poorly formed in that the corners of the hex.seem a bit rounded.I'd certainly be asking the supplier if they could get a replacement TR bolt. Also,as hedgehog mentions above,the sockets can be a bit deep & if it's not that well formed,maybe making your own allen wrench by grinding down a larger sized one might do the trick. I've had to make more than one such item in the past,
Ivan

[tc9486]

It still sounds as though you've not managed to get the allen key fully into the socket. I can't see how the graphite powder is supposed to help.

I presume you know to release the string tension before you attempt to adjust the truss rod?

The powdered graphite is meant to get in and basically take the form of the parts that have been stripped. I use it on my bass as I bought it secondhand with stripped action adjustment sockets and it worked ok. This is not working as well but I managed to get it moving. It only needs a final adjustment once the strings arrive.

Yeah. The string broke winding it back up.

[Ted Eschliman]

Inflammatory post title, false accusations, incendiary/knee jerk comments about dealer ethics, if anyone ever question Forum policy (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/faq.php) about taking personal grievances out on sellers and manufacturers, all they'd have to do is look at these two pages. It's textbook.

This is why we have these rules, folks.