Setup's equal.. More expensive play easier as less expensive ?

[bluemtgrass]

Notice I said " play " not sound.. I realize a more expensive unit should be setup better than a cheapie, but will there be a difference ( in your opinion ) when setup is equal ? And I mean string height, nut , bridge etc.. Most of us played cheap mandolins that played harder than most. How about the ones that are set up correctly ? And if they don't, why ?

:)

[JEStanek]

Set up is set up. If the board is slotted correctly and the tuners hold an expensive mandolin and an inexpensive one should play very similarly. They may sound worlds apart but they should play essentially as well.

Jamie

[allenhopkins]

A cheap mandolin may have defects, such as an incorrectly pitched or "over-relieved" neck, a poor quality nut and/or bridge, improperly installed frets, etc. that lead to difficulty in playing. However, a correctly-made cheap mandolin, when properly adjusted, should be as easy to play as a properly-adjusted expensive instrument, as Jamie rightly points out.

There have been a bunch of posts from Cafe members who have a low-end but well-set-up mandolin, and have no problems learning on it, keeping it as a second or back-up instrument, whatever. And I'd quibble a bit with the statement "a more expensive unit should be setup better than a cheapie"; one might expect an expensive mandolin to come with a better set-up, but having a good set-up may well be more crucial for a "cheapie," in terms of overall playability.

[Big Joe]

It does not make any difference the price of the instrument, or its relative quality. A bottom feeder mandolin should be able to be made as playable as the most expensive ones. Setup can help tonal quality, but that is a different issue entirely. The cost or quality of an instrument can make the setup a bit more work on the bottom feeders, but not always.

[bluemtgrass]

"a more expensive unit should be setup better than a cheapie";[/I] one might expect an expensive mandolin to come with a better set-up, but having a good set-up may well be more crucial for a "cheapie," in terms of overall playability.


I think you misunderstood the question and I don't disagree with your answer. .. I simply implied that paying several thousand dollars for a mandolin one would expect a better setup ( you would expect a luthier that made the mandolin or a high end factory, Collins etc to come with a very well setup mandolin ) than a $ 700 Morgan Monroe, Loar, Etc Etc That's why I carefully stated " setup's equal, same string height, nut, bridge etc " The question was simply will a more expensive mandolin play easier than a more inexpensive one with the same setup and if so, why ? ;)

[Folkmusician.com]

9 times out of ten the lower priced mandolin will require more effort to setup. Past that, the end results are the same.

Now at the extremes, if you have a completely unresponsive mandolin it will require a more aggressive playing style to get the same volume as an instrument that is very responsive. In this case, the better mandolin may be able to have the action down below average and still achieve the same volume as the lower priced instrument.

[Ed Goist]

I agree that a great set-up is a great set-up regardless of the cost of the mandolin.
The big step-up in playability, in my opinion, is going with a custom build that allows one to exactly spec out all of the playability features of the mandolin. Having a mandolin custom built allows one to get the exact specs one wants, such as: nut width; string spacing; fretboard radius, fret size; neck shape, thickness, and profile; and action.
These "taylor made" mandolins are the gold standard of playability (at least for the original owner).

[Grommet]

Ed-No doubt any mando made by a Liz or a James Taylor would set new heights in gold standard, at least in wow factor. But would the typical custom built mando be more aptly described as "Tailor Made" or "Home Rolled"?

I do think that a really good set-up on a low end mandolin will make it perfectly acceptable for learning and beyond, but that set-up may not include the really nicely polished frets, truly flat or accurately contoured fingerboard and just right neck profile you would find on the higher end mandolin of your choice. Therefore, not always the same.

Scott

[Ed Goist]

Scott; Too funny! And I didn't mean Bob Taylor either...
Actually, I really like "home rolled", though 'made-to-order' is good too.
The image of the tailor (correct spelling this time! :) ) came to mind because it seems so appropriate...Clothes off the rack just never fit as well as tailor-made! :)

[Lee]

The terms "set-up" and "re-build" don't have black/white differences in their definitions.
Just a small example: if an improvement to the mandolin's nut or bridge requires more careful filing then this kinda enters the realm of a set-up. Whereas, if more filing makes the condition worse, fitting on a brand new nut or bridge could be considered a re-build.

The only way to make your nice $300 mandolin play as well as nice $3000 mandolin is to begin the process with a "re-sale".

[Willie Poole]

The less expensive mandolin might play as well as the higher one but in most cases it will not stay that good for the same period of time as the higher one, truss rod may not be installed in it or not installed correctly, frets loosen after a short time, top may sag some when played hard....I have owned some "cheapies" that played well for a short period of time and then things started to happen that made me have to have them set up more often that a high end mandolin...

Try and compare it to an auto, the high priced ones don`t need a tune up/repairs as often as the cheaper ones, they don`t put the same quality of parts in them, same as a mandolin....

Willie

[Jim]

I don't feel that replacing a bridge or nut to quite qualify as a rebuild and a bone nut has been one of the most noticable tone improvments I've ever made on an instrument. The fret leveling I've had to do to make a low end instrument play well has been the single biggest and most time consuming job. That said sinking tops and twisted necks are things that I don't even bother to try and fix on a johnson or rogue or low end Rover. Poorly fitted bridges, nuts that need to be cut deeper or just thrown away and bridges that are too tall for the neck angle are what I run into most, along with not level frets which you don't even notice untill you start getting the action down to a playable level. You do tend to have thicker heavier necks on these low end models which does limit what you can do for it if a thick neck is a playabilty problem for you, It isn't for me.

[Bill Bradshaw]

9 times out of ten the lower priced mandolin will require more effort to setup. Past that, the end results are the same.

Now at the extremes, if you have a completely unresponsive mandolin it will require a more aggressive playing style to get the same volume as an instrument that is very responsive. In this case, the better mandolin may be able to have the action down below average and still achieve the same volume as the lower priced instrument.

I think this gets at what I've always called "tightness". Both of my mandolins seem set up well, but it seems to take a bit more effort to make the A and E strings ring on one of them. Thanks for clarifying that.

Bill

[Big Joe]

Something not considered in this discussion is that mandolins will change from when they are built as they settle in over a period of time. Sometimes it can be weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years. The setup may have been acceptable when the instrument left the factory, but as things settle in its new environment, it is normal for a setup to be needed. Secondly, some instruments need setups more often than others. Wood is not a static material and humidity changes over a period of time will cause things to move. Even the top can sink or swell with weather changes and cause a need for a setup. Even if a mandolin were perfectly setup new, it would change over time. Many instruments need the setup done a couple times a year. Some less frequently.

One commented that custom or hand built instruments are better because you can chose many of the things involved in setup. Even if that is true, it does not guarantee the builder is a good setup person. Most are not. A few are, but not all. Even in a production instrument your luthier (if competent) can adjust those issues with playability that one likes. Nut spacing, string spacing, saddle spacing, etc. are all issues that are fully adjustable in a good setup. The key is just letting the luthier know exactly what you want and ensure they understand fully your desires. Of course, when they do exactly what you want it is not their fault if you don't like it.

Setup is not a build issue, but a post build issue and it is not static and will likely need to be adjusted or redone many times over the life of the instrument.

[Malcolm G.]

Something not considered in this discussion is that mandolins will change from when they are built as they settle in over a period of time. Sometimes it can be weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years. The setup may have been acceptable when the instrument left the factory, but as things settle in its new environment, it is normal for a setup to be needed. Secondly, some instruments need setups more often than others. Wood is not a static material and humidity changes over a period of time will cause things to move. Even the top can sink or swell with weather changes and cause a need for a setup. Even if a mandolin were perfectly setup new, it would change over time. Many instruments need the setup done a couple times a year. Some less frequently.

One commented that custom or hand built instruments are better because you can chose many of the things involved in setup. Even if that is true, it does not guarantee the builder is a good setup person. Most are not. A few are, but not all. Even in a production instrument your luthier (if competent) can adjust those issues with playability that one likes. Nut spacing, string spacing, saddle spacing, etc. are all issues that are fully adjustable in a good setup. The key is just letting the luthier know exactly what you want and ensure they understand fully your desires. Of course, when they do exactly what you want it is not their fault if you don't like it.

Setup is not a build issue, but a post build issue and it is not static and will likely need to be adjusted or redone many times over the life of the instrument.

Big Joe's dead on as always, and truer words were never spoke re builders not often being good at set-up. It always amazes me.

[Justus True Waldron]

I've gotten a real appreciation for a properly set up mandolin after I bought my hand built... Marty who built mine claims to be a builder first and a set-up guy second, however after I came to him with some things he went over the whole thing with a fine tooth comb. He did an amazing job, and everyone who has played my mandolin since (pros included) really like how it's set up. The action is actually higher then before, but being properly set up it's still super easy to play, and very clean and in tune. My thinking on this issue is that to be a good set up guy you have to first be a decent player, that can understand what you want an instrument to do... So I think I've gotten lucky there. Still, to echo Big Joe, a bad setup isn't necessarily the fault of the instrument, it just means you need a good setup guy! It makes SUCH a difference.

[Folkmusician.com]

My thinking on this issue is that to be a good set up guy you have to first be a decent player, that can understand what you want an instrument to do...

I believe being a player gives you some advantage, but I don't think it is critical. It is mostly about an understanding of the physics at work, a good ear and experience. Now I am saying this having had my first guitar 34 years ago, I honestly can't relate to not having an instrument around. I just feel that setup is so unrelated to playing that the benefits are minor. I feel that recording, and live sound experience has helped me more than playing has. Situations where you are critiquing tone or really analyzing what is going on with an instrument.

[Big Joe]

I don't think anyone who cannot play to some degree would have a clue how to eek the last bits out of the instrument. Being able to play helps in so many ways. I have not met a great setup person yet who was not reasonably adequate as a player of the instrument he is trying to set up. If you don't play you won't know the slight differences that affect tone and playability. It is physics to be sure, but it is also coupled with a bit of magic that comes from years of working on and playing these wonderful little boxes. I don't mean to argue with you Robert, but without a certain degree of playing skill it would be hard to know when to stop or when not to. The luthier does not have to be a Ronnie McCoury by any means, but should at least know enough to understand the needs of the players and how to achieve what they need.

[Gail Hester]

I don't think anyone who cannot play to some degree would have a clue how to eek the last bits out of the instrument.

I don't agree at all, don't play either.:grin:

[mrmando]

Despite not playing the mandolin, Gail is a setup wizard.

Of course it doesn't hurt to be married to a good mandolin player ... but I doubt Chuck is obliged to check all of Gail's setup work.

[Kheath]

Ok here is a real newbie question along these lines, I have been playing a vey low end (probably the lowest) Savannah mandolin for about a year now. I have been saving money for a new quality instrument and I am about 3/4's the way there. My question is what is required of a mandolin setup? My local guy doesnt carry mandolins, and while he is a great repair guy and can fix most things, he readily admits his ignorance on mandolins.........Kevin

[Justus True Waldron]

I am in no way an expert in setup, however I'll take a crack at answering that based off my experience just watching people... I'm probably missing a few things here. I'm pretty sure setup usually includes making sure the fretboard is flat, then adding the desired amount of relief in the neck, making sure the frets are dressed, setting the nut height, adjusting the bridge in both height and placement (making sure the intonation is right), and finally making sure the string spacing is good. One thing I've learned is that if the string pairs are too close together they can actually collide in heavy playing and make the note "flab out". It's all the things like this, and much more, that make the difference between something that makes noise and a smoothly working machine that's a joy to play.

[chriss]

... My local guy doesnt carry mandolins, and while he is a great repair guy and can fix most things, he readily admits his ignorance on mandolins.........Kevin

The basic principles on the mando are very similar to guitars, so if he's OK with guitars, he should still be able to do a good job on your mando. The only real difference is that the bridge on a mando can be moved around, and has to be positioned right for good intonation. He "should" be familiar with the concept from guitars- cuz you have to locate a guitar's bridge+saddle right also, it's just they're glued in position on a guitar as part of building it. So unless he's really unsure of himself, I think it's sensible to ask him to do it.

I'll add my vote to the idea that $50-75 to setup a modest mando is a terrific value for money. It's pretty much a sure shot that it'll come back MUCH easier to play. The "enjoyment-to-dollars ratio" of a setup has always been huge in my experience, even on pretty nice instruments. And it's usually even bigger for less expensive instruments. FWIW - just from my own experiences I think the odds are very high that you'll be really happy, thrilled, with what you get back, for the money you put into it.

Another way to look at it, is you'll probably need+want a careful setup even on this next mando you're saving up for, too. If you're buying it from somebody who does a good setup, aim to negotiate that into the price. If not, just plan to take it to somebody right after you buy it. Even real nice instruments get noticably better. It's kinda like adjusting the saddle+handlebars on a bicycle (tho a bit more to it than that ) ... there's a huge payback in comfort + playability for the instrument.

[Ed Goist]

* Overview of a mandolin set-up from the folkmusician website (http://www.folkmusician.com/mandolinsetup.asp).
* Overview of a mandolin set-up from The Mandolin Store website (http://www.themandolinstore.com/Scripts/default.asp). (scroll down near the bottom of the page)
* Overview of a mandolin set-up from The Mandolin Hut website (http://themandolinhut.com/mandolin_setup_procedure.htm).

[Kheath]

Thanks Ed!

[Don Grieser]

So is it setup alone that makes Phoenix mandolins play so easily?

[mandolohreyian]

I'm new to mandolin and got myself an Ibanez M510DVS to get started. I lowered the bridge but is there more set up I should do? Can I do it myself or should I take it somewhere? I know I'm just learning chords but I do feel like I have to press down very hard to get good resonance when I strum.

[Zach Wilson]

Hello Mandolohreyian, welcome to the site and to the amazing world if mandolins!

Did you play any other instruments before you started mandolin?

Mandolins do ring and sustain but like guitars.

[tiltman]

There is a free download on Mandolin Setup here on the café from Rob Meldrum. PM him and he will send you a copy. Yes set up is extremely important with double courses and short strings.

mailto:rob.meldrum@gmail.com

[mandolohreyian]

Hey Zach, I haven't played other instruments before.

[Mark Gunter]

I have to point out that “playability” or “ease of playing” involves more than “set-up factors”.

Neck profile, depth and width of neck, fretboard radius or lack thereof, and fret height & width are other big factors. For easiest playing you need to find, or have made, a mandolin that feels right to you and then have it set up to suit your preferences in action. Makes no difference what you paid for the mandolin. If you’re not happy with the feel of it, the action, and the tone, you won’t find it easy to play.

[JEStanek]

I'm new to mandolin and got myself an Ibanez M510DVS to get started. I lowered the bridge but is there more set up I should do? Can I do it myself or should I take it somewhere? I know I'm just learning chords but I do feel like I have to press down very hard to get good resonance when I strum.

Rob Meldrum's book is a wonderful resource, if you have some experience and some notion of what you're doing and what a good setup feels like. Truthfully as Mark and others may have stated, ease of play has other factors than set up (nut and bridge slots, tuner maintenance, neck relief, action height) like neck angle, neck profile, some technique comes into play as well.

My advice, based on my experience as a novice player and not terribly proficient with tools guy) is if you're brand new to mandolins, and haven't worked with or on stringed instruements, PAY for a good set up first to see what it should feel like then tinker as you feel ambitious. In general, I don't remove all my strings at once when I change them b/c I don't want to stress of placement and angle of my bridge.

Welcome to the cafe, mandolohreyian, we have a bounty of good unsolicited advice to offer. Much of it is very good!

Jamie