Loar Picture of the Day

[Brian Aldridge]

you're welcomed yellowmandolin. As to your Q are they still used today; There are two builders that I know of that offer them as options. They are Lynn Dudenbostel and Randy Wood. I am sure there are others that I am not aware of.

[evanreilly]

Rigel and Doug Woodley have offered the Virzi as an option.
Here is the Doug Woodley monster Virzi:

[Darryl Wolfe]

Orig Virzi that I removed and glued back together

[FrankenMouse]

Very cool! What's the actual size (diameter) of the virzi?

[Darryl Wolfe]

I dont recall at the moment (since I'm actually at work

, but somewhere around 4.5 to 5" oval in shape http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[FrankenMouse]

Ah, so the photo is more or less actual size. Very wide grained spruce on the virzi. (Or at least I assume it's spruce.) I wonder if that was by design, or just chance...?

[Darryl Wolfe]

chance...another one I have is tighter grained spruce. The legs are spruce too, and very crudely constructed

[Darryl Wolfe]

They are oval...4-1/4" x 4-15/16" (found a scan of a plan)

[Ward Elliott]

I've got a question for all you Loar fans. How thick is the ivoroid binding on a side bound Loar? I've got .060 and .090, one looks too thin the other too thick. Thanks for any help.

[HoGo]

They are actually egg shaped rather than oval. With the larger diameter oriented towards the neck. They were probably shooting for 5" but the edges got sanded round and maybe that's why that one ended 4 15/16" long.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Ward, you are absolutely correct. Bindings along with other trimmings such as the pickguard were 0.070 incremental. Possibly these were actually in millimeters at the time, since they were likely imported. Other details such as the width of the white and black for the w/b/w are also hard to duplicate. Most any white/black or triple binding laminates are too thin regarding the white/black. The actual thickness was well over the standard 0.020 available today. I have a nifty router jig that I got from Don McRostie that allows accurate trimming of binding. Stew-Mac decided not to market the device though. I suspect because of the inherent danger associated with it. I've had no problems, but I wouldn't want to be held responsible for it's safe operation. I use it only when absolutely necessary. The device is a clamp down base with spring loaded holder/retainers for the binding

[Ward Elliott]

Thanks Darryl,
# Then maybe my eyes aren't going after all! And thanks for all the photos and info in this thread. To be able to ask the Loar experts of the world a question and get a real answer is an amazing thing. The photos are astounding........Ward

[Charlie Derrington]

Ward...

I'll confirm Darryl's observations. .070 it is.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks Charlie...details like this are hard to detect. Unless, like yourself you do actual work on mandos....Say like when you pull some messed up binding off an A-model, and go to carefully replace it.....the 0.060 doesn't make it back to the surface...and the 0.090 is far more than you would ever want to scrape back to the nicely finished sides. You end up in a dilemma trying to get it right without accurately dimensioned bindings

[Darryl Wolfe]

One other Loar type 0.070" detail is the two-ply pickguard found on most '23 Loars. #It appears that the 0.070 material worked fine on all their other pickguards until the bound style 5 guard came about. #So..after they bound the 0.070 and sanded it down, the guards was not stable enough/too thin. #So they reinforced it with another indented layer on the back. #The guards are usually about 0.055-0.060 on the bound layer and they are reinforced with 0.070. #They promply turned around and ordered thicker plastic which generally appears on the single layer '24 Loar guards. #These are in the 0.090-0.100 finished range.

My repro guards (and most everyone else's) start out at 0.125 and I take them down to about 0.110-0.115. #The materials available today are much softer and generally will not work well dimensioned to any less.

[Ward Elliott]

In this case I'm just trying to match the look on my own new mando, so I can just scrape it down flush. I'll leave the Loar restorations to Charlie, thank you!...Ward

[JimW]

Hey Ward, are you trying to make my new Mandolin look like a loar? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Ward Elliott]

I'm trying Jim, I'm trying! I got the body marinating in Loar sauce right now.

[Spruce]

OK, here's some new fodder photos...
I really like these pics....

#75691

[Spruce]

#75691 top...

[Spruce]

Red Maple?

[Spruce]

Pearwood....

[Spruce]

Dark finish, no?

[mandopete]

Dark finish, no?
......and the scroll looks weird too!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandoJeremy]

Yeah, whatever! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Charlie Derrington]

Great pictures, Bruce.

In B&W the true artistry of these treasures really shines through.

Charlie

[HoGo]

Were all headstocks veneers made of pearwood? The Monroe's Loar headstock always appeared to me too light in the place where the "Gibson" logo used to be when he sraped it away. I was told by someone that old Gibson banjos were all black dyed wood on headstocks, not ebony and wondered whether mandolins were done like this, too.
Here is the pic. http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73987_frank_ray.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

I believe you are correct HOGO. They, like the banjos appear to be dyed pearwood. It is quite soft and chips very easily when removing bushings. It is also very thin and laminated to what appears to be maple. The inlay goes clean thru the pearwood, so what you are seeing on Monroes mando is maple of the neck, or the material that is under the pearwood. I have heard that they used india ink, or a similar product to dye them. On the Loars you can see a distinct blueish hue to the color that makes me think this is the case. Email me if you have a higher resolution file for that photo

Thanks
Darryl

[HoGo]

Spruce posted this pic originally. The color seems to be too dark for maple. There is still the shape of the loop of the capital G visible, which means that the brown wood is not the neck wood but one of the laminations. Somewhere I read that they used crossgrain lamination. If my memory serves it was in the Mike Nelson's F4 plans.
Do you know what did they replace it with after the peghead repair? Ebony? Might be the only Loar with ebony headplate. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Charlie Derrington]

Nope. I used pearwood.

Charlie

[Tom C]

That's a good typical example of how un-perfect loars are. Sloppy gibson logo, binding work not great at least around scroll. Don't forget these were made in a factory. But I'd take 1.

[HoGo]

Charlie, you missed the chance to raise its value by making it the Big Mon's Loar with exclusive genuine EBONY headplate. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[HoGo]

Tom, the scrolls were not always perfectly bound but the curves are generally well balanced which is problem to way too many current makers. Some of the Loars are, however bound very nicely. IMO, I'd rather see imperfect binding on a prefect scroll than a perfect binding on a sloppy scroll. And I find the old logos very tasteful handwork. What looks sloppy is the chipping varnish.

[Darryl Wolfe]

HOGO, let's not forget that the picture was take20-30 years after he scratched out the inlay with a pocketknife

[HoGo]

That's possible, Darryl. But it seems too dark even for 20 years seasoned maple. The wood of the top is much lighter than that and I heard he scraped the varnish at the same time as he did the inlay. Pearwood can be very similar in structure to a maple, only darker.
The story about the banjo headstocks went that they were not routed for inlay but cut with jewellers saw to accept the inlay. Maybe they cut through one layer to accept inlay and added another to gain thickness... Just my speculation.

[GTison]

I always wanted to see what shape of pick he used. #(at least sometime) #Is that the original fingerboard? #The little step in the fingerboard extention at the 22-23rd fret, seems to be cut deeper making it look more pointed. #I've never noticed that. #Check those big wheels on the bridge, where'd those come from the 50's? I'd love to have a print of that one.

[evanreilly]

That is the famous picture of Bill's mandolin from Life magazine. There were several pics of Bill as well in the article, if I remember correctly.

[Darryl Wolfe]

That's what I meant by clean thru the pearwood. I have some original Gibson peghead overlay drawings that indicate that this is the case. Of related note is those brass peghead template pics I posted earlier in this thread. One can speculate that they were used for cutting the thin pearwood out with something similar to an exacto knife. The template is sized without the binding. The templates had pin holes for tuner and truss rod locations along with the locating pins for the overlay itself

[HoGo]

They didn't have any Dremels and high speed routers back then. The knife or saw method seems reasonable. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Another related thing is the flat spot issue. You said it was a flaw in the template but how big the error should have been to be visible after all the sanding and scraping of the roughly carved plates? Their machinery was not anywhere close to the today's precise duplicating routers to copy such fine details. I assumed, they planed the joined wedges flat and thicknessed them and sometimes got a bit under the minimal thickness and the sanding guy didn't sand it completely rounded.

[danb]

Charlie- when you repaired Bill's mandolin, how much of the peghead was new? Did you save the inlay for the "The" and the flowerpot?

Out of curiosity, do the Master models you make today have the "dowel cross-section" like this one to protect the curl?

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Mandolin/BrokenScroll/BrokenScrollViews/scrollreinf.jpg

Image from Frank Ford's Frets.com (http://www.frets.com)

[Spruce]

"Email me if you have a higher resolution file for that photo"

I think I robbed that pic from The Mandolin Archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?55), Darryl...

Here's another pic of the peghead that Jon Sievert (http://www.altmanphoto.com/Jon.Sievert.html) came up with from his wonderful collection, and used here by permission.

There's gotta be a great high resolution straight-on shot of the pre-restoration peghead kicking around somewhere. #

Anyone out there have one?

[Tom C]

I thought only the back of the headstock was pear wood. But the above explanations work for me.

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK..this one is not a guessing game. #Here is what appears to be a nice July 9, 23 Loar. #I can't remember where I got these. #Can anyone identify the mando? The shape of the burst on the front, and the bold curl on the back are a good starting point


http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/july23/loar1.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

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http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/july23/loar4.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

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http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/july23/loar5.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

final
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/july23/loar6.jpg

[Charlie Derrington]

I'm probably wrong, but the back looks like one of Ken's. I also think I remember he June being in a red case. Maybe not.

Maybe he'll chime in.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

I have some new pics of that one....not it. Charlie, could it be Ricky's

[Charlie Derrington]

I think Ricky's is lighter in color, and I also think his has a slab back.

Charlie

[Ward Elliott]

I've got another binding question if you don't mind. On some Loars, there are no black/white stripes under the fretboard binding, instead a ledge is routed for the binding, leaving a little strip of ebony underneath the binding. But I've seen photos of Loars that do have a black/white stripe under the fretboard binding. Can someone tell me which way the sidebound Loars were done? Thanks!

[f5loar]

Darryl and Charlie, for certain that is a July 9th and it is 73980. Not many of those around with red cases and the stain, grain and inlay pattern matches perfect to photos I have of 73980.

[HoGo]

I've seen only triple side-bound Loars with the same binding scheme on the sides of the fretboard and peghead. The double side-bound Loars were bound with white, not ivoroid, and the black line was probably added as a black veneer under the white bound board or maybe B/W binding was used. They have also double side-bound headstocks. David Mclaughlin's mandolin is a good example of the double binding... There are some good pics of that mandolin somewhere around page 30 of this thread.
The fingerboards were most probably not routed the way you describe.

[Ward Elliott]

Thanks HoGo,
Those photos definitely help.

[Ken Waltham]

Hi guys. I've been away.
That's not the July 9 I used to own, but, Tom, mine was in a red case, from the first owner.
Very nice F5, that one. Also, mine was closed loop pattern.
Ken

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks Tommy, that was one of the several numbers I had in mind for it

[Darryl Wolfe]

enough of the Gibson price increase stuff..here's a newly found Fern Loar that presumably will be for sale soon
March 31, 24. #Serial number has been changed, we'll comment further on that later

[Darryl Wolfe]

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[Darryl Wolfe]

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[Darryl Wolfe]

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[Darryl Wolfe]

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[Darryl Wolfe]

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[ronlane3]

Darryl,

Very nice pictures. Of the ones that have been for sale lately that I have seen pictures of this one is head and shoulders better looking. So if the others are $100 - 130K each, then what's this one going to go for ?? $150K?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Very hard to say..the ones at Elderly and Gruhn's haven't moved....so the price must have stabilized some

[mandoJeremy]

To me that is the most perfect color on a mando! Where was this one found?

[Darryl Wolfe]

I don't know much yet and can't say the rest. It apparently is another pass down thru a few people in the family. For some reason the serial number appears to have been erased and then put back in thru the f-hole in ink. I suspect there is a one digit error in the number as it was reapplied. There doesn't appear to be any shadyness to the situation

[evanreilly]

Skinner's is going to auction off another 'mint' Loar at their October auction. They have raised the price bar every time they offered a Loar mandolin at auction.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Hey all, I was a bit assumptive in stating that the serial number on this Fern Loar had been erased and reapplied. Upon further examination and discussions with the owner, we find that it has not been erased. The existing serial number is in pencil like it should be. The handwriting is different and somewhat odd, but there is no evidence of alteration. The second digit of the number however, does not make chronological sense. It could be the original intended factory number but moreover it appears to be simply a factory mistake or brainlapse. Remember that the serial number is under the label. What would happen if you glued the label in, but forgot to transcribe the serial number on it first?

[danb]

Various Mandolin Archive updates are nearing completion, in the meantime I finally got aroudn to posting all of my good pictures of The Schultz Loar (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2781) up at the site.

Here's one of the new ones, the rest are at that link..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76547_face_retouched.jpg

[jasona]

Nothing distressed about that one, excepting Dan's feelings ever time he thinks about what once was, no doubt http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[danb]

Tony Williamson (http://www.mandolincentral.com) has just listed 73728 (July 9, 1923) (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2985) for sale here! (http://www.mandolincentral.com/instlist.html)

[ethanopia]

I like the way he says ultimate of the ultimate, so well put.

Now if I could only play the Jethro break to Back Up and Push like Tony!

[Don Grieser]

It looks like the bridge has been moved back about the width of the bridge on that TW Loar. Or is that something else? I'm sure more than one of you have seen it in person. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yes that is bridge wear

[76547]

Darryl,

Does the "new" '24 Loar have a Virzi? Could it be 76548?

[Darryl Wolfe]

It has a Virzi and is not 76548

[f5loar]

Most Fern Loars will have the Virzi installed at factory.
There are many Loars with that necessary bridge movement.
Has anyone gotten a price on the July 9 Williamson is selling?

[danb]

$120,000 I think

[mandopete]

Wow - and people think new Gibsons are getting expensive!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kudzugypsy]

got to play Tony's July 9 Loar and it is wonderful! everything a July 9 is suppose to be. i believe he said he was taking it to IBMA. It has been well played, and the bridge was at one point set wrong, and it probably stayed that way long enough to leave the indent.
i think everyone is waiting for the skinner auction. it will be quite interesting! i'll bet the final bid goes to someone that already has a stash of Loar's. It will be in their better interests to see the mando bid high.

[kudzugypsy]

i have seen that Loar before(photo), i'm sure of it. i distinctly remember the red leather couch and the beautiful sunburst / fern inlay. it was a few years ago. seemed like Laurence Wexer had it.

[danb]

kudzugypsy, I think you're remembering a fern H5, but that sure looks like Larry's couch http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kudzugypsy]

oops dan, check out the classified http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
you just dont forget a mandolin like that!!!

[kudzugypsy]

too bad i didnt buy it back then for 1/2 that price! of course i didnt have the money then either http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Tom C]

Since it's out. I got to play the fern loar last week. THANKS LARRY! That will be a memoral night for me -2 Loars in one night. That Fern is just oozing with Loar. I can't afford the Loar but, how much for the couch?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[danb]

This Mandola (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?240) is the one I bet you saw before..

Fern, March 31, same burst, same couch http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76493_1.jpg

[kudzugypsy]

i donno dan, kind of ironic that i remember that photo so well, and then bang, Larry puts up the ad for the exact mando in the classifieds. same mando, same couch, same dealer as i recalled it -
that mandola wasnt the one i saw - i could tell a mandola from a mandolin for sure.
i could be wrong, that was at least a few years ago, but it is ironic. that red leather couch has seen some mighty fine instruments!
doesnt matter, its nice to see another mint Loar.

[danb]

ok, no worries. I saw the fern and instantly thought it was the 'dola, so I'm just ascribing my own imperfect memory to others as well to try to justify it I guess http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Here's 72541 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2998) in all it's red-couched glory. Thanks to Larry for the fantastic photos!

[Ken Waltham]

Hi guys. That Loar is previously unknown, and is making it's very first appearance on Larry's couch.
MMMmmmm.....

[Darryl Wolfe]

73682 Signed June 1923 with no day noted. First appearance of triple binding on the sides
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73682/FRONT.JPG

[Darryl Wolfe]

Back..has the typical quartersawn maple that preceeded the July 9 batchhttp://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73682/BACKVIEW.JPG

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. (don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board)

[Darryl Wolfe]

A new mandolin

[Darryl Wolfe]

A Stew-Mac Fingerboard blank

[Darryl Wolfe]

Some Monroe-esque Loar stuff for your pleasure

http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/art_junk/core_med.jpg

[Spruce]

"Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. #It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. #(don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board) "

The Siminoff boards are very accurate in this respect...

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. #It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. #(don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board)
Apparently, Gibson misses this detail as well. This is a photo of my 2003 Fern.

[Charlie Derrington]

Yup, it was a choice.

Original board and new/more accurate scale or ... oh well, you know.

Charlie http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Yellowmandolin]

Here is my 2003 Gibson F5-G. #It seems ok to me. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

On second thought, the 22nd is a little low. Who cares...i'm never going to play way down there anyway... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Charlie Derrington]

It is OK. Just not exactly placed the same as the original '23 spacing.

[Yellowmandolin]

Fred, the fret wire on your fern seems a lot smaller then on my F5-G. I don't know what size my is, but is yours extra small?

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

The fret wire on my Fern is official Gibson and factory installed.

I had heard that some of the earlier scales were a bit off, but I'm with Yellowmandolin, I get a bit cramped for space even when I get above the 12th fret. I've got pretty large diameter fingers, not to mention they don't like to work in cramped quarters!

[danb]

Charlie, are your newer fingerboards adjusted so the frets intonate better on the same scale length? I'm messing around with setup on my '23 snakehead and have been quite fastidious testing it properly, but I can't seem to get the bass and treble perfectly intonated at the same time..

are there any issues with the bridge compensations or fretboards not being entirely kosher with modern strings, or the need to bump the bridge back for the slight top settling that occurs in 80-odd years?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Quote..onlyagibsois....Apparently, Gibson misses this detail as well. This is a photo of my 2003 Fern.
Come on now guys...If I was gonna gig Gibson, I would have done so with my first example pic (a new Fern)...This Master Model is very close

[Charlie Derrington]

Dan....

Same scale length...more accurate fret spacing. The originals were only calculated to the nearest 1/64th but I figured the new slots to the nearest thousandth.

You could try setting the intonation at the 18th fret instead of the 12th. That works sometimes.

Darryl, I didn't think you were gigging anybody. I was just letting folks know I agreed with you.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's an outrageously accurate Distressed Master Model. Great work Charlie.
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mastermodel/distressed/Distressed MM-1.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

nexthttp://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mastermodel/distressed/Distressed MM-2.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

next
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mastermodel/distressed/Distressed MM-3.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

last. All photos courtesy of F5Joe
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mastermodel/distressed/Distressed MM-4.jpg

[Steve Stahl]

Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. #It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. #(don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board)
I can't find any precut fingerboards from Stew-Mac, only slotted unprofiled (rectangular). How would the alignment of the frets with respect to the fingerboard extension be an issue, if you have to cut this yourself? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Good point Steve. It appears that they've dropped them from their catalog. They use to offer the slotted profiled ebony fingerboard for around $22-25 which seems like a great time saver. Same for their profiled neck which used to be about $70 with peghead cut and dovetail cut. It's still available, but IMHO not worth the trouble of building everything else (jigs and dimesions) around it to suit your needs..... it's easier to build a neck to suit what you have

[phynie]

That distressed is amazing!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[Yellowmandolin]

Darryl, are those pictures from the Showcase? #I tried out a Distressed there this summer. #WOW... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[mandoman4807]

Gosh, My Master model is beginning to look like that only after two years. And I am trying to be as carefull as humanly possible http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

The beauty of varnish I suppose.


Darrell

[mandoman4807]

Oh, and another observation: my Waverly's look older than the Distressed model. Mine are tarnishing very quickly.

Charlie, you are going to have to work on that one.

Darrell

[kudzugypsy]

well, we finally get to see some actual pix of a DMM!!

whats up with the "wrong" tailpiece cover?

they really distressed that one convencingly, but like mandoman says, i bet after 5-10 years of good hard playing, a standard MM would rival that one.
they sure are neat, but i dont know about paying $8K more for "authentic" wear and tear.

[kudzugypsy]

ok, this is an interesting question. brought on by the last few posts..........
lets just fast forward 10 years (assuming things follow historical price appreciation and/or depreciation models)

you have a used DMM in EX condition
you have a used MM in Good condition

is there any difference??? will the fact that someone paid $8K more for the DMM factor in the price difference with the SAME basic mandolin with natural wear and tear? or will the DMM always carry a premium ONLY because it was a more scarce instrument. I'm assuming that these are both the SAME instruments, (as Charlie/Big Joe have stated earlier) one is just distressed.

what do ya think?

[mandoman4807]

well, we finally get to see some actual pix of a DMM!!

whats up with the "wrong" tail piece cover?





Are you talking about the goldish hue on the tail piece? It was probably the deliberate attempt to tarnish (age it). This is happening to my turners in just two years. Although, my tail piece looks like new.


Darrell

[mandoJeremy]

I think he is talking about the wrong engraving and I think I remember Charlie saying something about some of these having this tailpiece because some of the Loars have the wrong tailpiece cover. I guess the original was lost over the years.

[HoGo]

Great work, Charlie. That one looks very accurate. The headstock scroll is MUCH nicer than all the masters I've seen.
First I thought the small pic wasn't a recent MM because of the shape of the side buttons at the 15th fret, but from the pic of the distressed I see that they corrected the shape of these details. The NAMM Distressed MM had those large buttons which really did not correspond with any Loar.
When did you change these? And are there on the entire line of F mandolins, or only for MM's?

[oldwave maker]

On a recent midwest road trip to an undisclosed location near bobs country bunker, I got this shot of 4 old loars and an old wave, wave was wending its way to ireland, loars gettin fixed up by a greencard carrying foreigner 'of exceptional talent', according to his INS document. they got that right! dark one in back was a 24 fern

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I just wanted you all to know, it wasn't my intention to "Gig" Gibson (whatever that means), I just wanted to point out that even though the current crop of Gibsons are as historically accurate as they have been, there was a difference in that fret spacing which f5journl pointed out. In fact, some time after my post I began to think it might be due to the new and improved scale.

My opinion of Gibson should be evident if you only consider my username. The Fern I have now will remain in my possesion until my widow decides to sell it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[HoGo]

I wanted to say that it is much nicer than any of the sidebound new masters I've seen. They used to have kinda shorter inside cut of the scroll and the CNC cut binding didn't look right too.

[mandoman4807]

Great work, Charlie. That one looks very accurate. The headstock scroll is MUCH nicer than all the masters I've seen.


I beg to differ on that one. Check out the photo below of mine, dated March 22, 02. It is as good as it gets!


Darrell
There it is>


Darrell

[mandoman4807]

HoGO,

I now see what you are talking about. The cut on the new master(above), is tighter and smoother.


Darrell

[mandoman4807]

A larger look! Darrell

[GTison]

I think both pictures may distort the headstock scroll cut. the above seems a little short and a little narrow. Which has been a difference with the nashville models. Maybe some Loars are this way. But a good straight on view would help. (DarrelS sounds like you are baiting here). ( Incidently my fern has a kinda flat side to the body scroll which has occured in loars and ferns also, ... just an difference in each mandolin and it's kinda neat.)

[kudzugypsy]

i have to agree with HoGo, mandoman, the previous MM's had the headstock scroll too big. to me, this messed with the beautiful symmetry that the original loars had. hard to tell from the off angle shots.
its not about the cleaness of the scroll, but the size. with the single bound pegheads, this really sticks out to me.

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK..no arguing. #Charlie is well aware that the CNC'd cut for the large scroll on the peghead didn't turn the corner quite enough compared to the originals. #This is a minor detail, but they have gone to the trouble to correct it on the DMM pictured. (I refer to this as "the binding mitre points to the right, not upwards). Of more important note is the absolutely perfect flowerpot and script. #Charlie and Company should be commended for their attention to detail. #As with anything, perfection comes with time.
Note original pictured here and how accurate the DMM is.

[kudzugypsy]

mandoman, notice how your MM has the "updated" flowerpot.
why did gibson do this on a reproduction?? i like it better though.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's another example (courtesy of Elderly) #This is 73725 the one above is 73747, both July 9, 23. #Note how Charlie has the dirt and base for the flowerpot darker like they generally are....the script well within the slight variance they had and the scrolls are as good as they get.

[mandoman4807]

So now I get it! The standard production Master Model is not intended to be a loar Copy http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

This is what is SO great about this Café, You learn something new every day.


Darrell

[Darryl Wolfe]

Mandoman...that's really not fair. I cannot speak for Charlie or Gibson, but I can say that some of my templates for repro parts have very slight deviations to them. When I make a pickguard for a new instrument I charge X. When I make a pickguard for an original Loar I charge 2X. You can't hardly tell the difference, but the deviation isn't there on the one for the Loar.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[FrankenMouse]

"the binding mitre points to the right, not upwards"

And on my F4, the final tip of the binding points downward. A cool little detail I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it. Thanks, Darryl!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Good point Frankenmouse..that's a really elegant F4.

Now here is another part of this situation. The pegheads were painted and scraped back off the inlay and binding. On most Loars the binding continues a bit, like Franks, but the paint is generally left on somewhat. See the original above, you can see a hint of the binding under the paint.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Pointing to the right on the '03 Fern. Is that with the standards of the '23 Ferns?

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Actually, in researching the archives, I found no '23 Ferns, but plenty of '24 Loars. The one difference I noticed between the new ones and the Loar era peghead scroll is the older ones seem to be much more open as you get out towards the tuners. They're both beautiful, though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Speaking of '23 Ferns..here is a true oddity
Serial Number 71057 (should be dated Nov 1922)
Scroll carving and binding like 1922
Signature Date- February 18, 1924
Fern, like March 1924 mandolins
Guarantee Label (like 1927 F5's)
Parts like 1927 F5's
Dot at 3rd, like 1927 F5's

[Darryl Wolfe]

Back

[Darryl Wolfe]

peghead

[wallflower]

I think the peghead scroll on the Loar looks a bit like an appendage that doesn't quite fit with the rest of the headstock. #In particular, the space (or the gap) between the headstock and the scroll looks odd. #I know this is blasphemous (smile). #On the other hand, Fred's Fern scroll looks great! #I guess everyone's perception of things is different.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Absolutely..the Fern Loars varied alot in that area. #I don't think they had quite gotten the hang of triple binding the peghead...check these two out

as bad or worse

[Darryl Wolfe]

better

[wallflower]

Also, from a practical standpoint, the newer Master Model peghead scroll might be less likely to break off with the little extra amount of wood left between the inside and outside of the scroll. #Maybe...

[Ken Waltham]

Darryl; Tell me about this previous picture...
That amndolin looks " real" as far as colour, finish, logo, etc.
What do make of it? Back for a new neck?? But, that Fern pattern should be in the "Master Model" era of Ferns, not even the Guarantee era of Ferns...
What gives with this one? Oh, what about case and hardware?
Ken

[f5loar]

Darryl, that Fern on the tree photo is not right. Something funky about the curl binding is not the way it looks. It almost looks like a double exposure there and it looks exactly like the Pickin' Poster Fern headstock. I don't see any variance in those two. That photo was taken with a 1.3 mega camera in the slow mode. Refer to other peghead photos of that Fern for comparision.

[Darryl Wolfe]

76549 again...March 31, 1924 Fern Loar

[GTison]

Is the fern inlay really that green/blue abalone? I've only seen late 20s ferns and they seem to have a real gold look to them. these almost look like the new models. Is it as it appears?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yes the Loar period and those just after (up to about 84xxx) were dark green and blue abalone. The later ones have a thinner fern that is more white and has the yellowed lacquer over it..more like this

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's a nice "Unsigned Loar" This could be yours..just look in the MandolinCafe Classifieds
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/82369/IMG_0747.JPG

[Darryl Wolfe]

back
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/82369/IMG_0748.JPG

[Darryl Wolfe]

peghead
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/82369/IMG_0630.JPG

[levin4now]

this is part of a picture from page 45 of this thread. Looks like the feller is having a tough time getting his hand around the neck. Good thumb placement but...seems like someone would have helped him a bit... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Charlie Derrington]

I owned that one once, Darryl. It is certainly one of the best I have ever had. I believe it's a bargain at the price he's asking and will only increase in value. IMHO

Charlie

[mandoJeremy]

Is that one varnish also Charlie? I am sure it probably is but I am curious.

[Darryl Wolfe]

No..it is the early style soft lacquer as evidenced by the telltale '20's crazing shown here. It's quite possible that there is varnish underneath. I like Charlie, highly recommend this mandolin. Prices like this WILL NOT BE SEEN AGAIN
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/82369/craze.JPG

[Darryl Wolfe]

Of note on this mando are:
Stamp Number/FON consistent with '24 Loars.
Peg overlay exactly like Dec '24 Loars when they were using up the '22/early '23 overlays.
Binding and woods exactly like period '24 Loar.
Graduations and aesthetics..'24 Loar.
Finish texture..'25/26.
Parts (gold, large bushings) '25/26.
Pickguard..appears Loar period.
Guarantee label..a bit odd, may have master model label underneath (like Monroes did)..if not, an indicator that it layed around a good while before leaving the factory or maybe some slight warrantee work in the 'mid /late 20s. Not a biggie at any rate (the larger bushings are commensurate with the change to the Guarantee label)

[Charlie Derrington]

It's most likely lacquer over varnish (under a blacklight the orange shows through). I believe the overspray was done when the sent it back to the factory for something in the late 20s. That's probably (probably, I say, because who knows for sure ??) when they added the Guarantee label.

All I know is.... this mando is an absolute hoss !

Charlie

[Spruce]

That type of figured quartered maple under that crazed lacquer/varnish is making it very difficult to walk up the hill to the shop... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

You said that this mando displays "woods exactly like period '24 Loar", Darryl...

I can't recall seeing quartered Eastern hard maple (that's a guess) like this very often in Loar period instruments--mostly bookmatched or one-piece slab. #
Or, (again a guess) what looks like European...

Is this type of wood common in '24 instruments?

Man, that is one hellova tree. #Look at the graining. #What 16-20 GPI or so??

Guess I need to go take another tour of the Archive and see if this tree makes other appearances, 'cause that's about the coolest look I've ever seen...

[Jim Hilburn]

Is the separation of the binding in the scroll (particularly on the back) due to shrinkage, or did they just get carried away when filing in there?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Jim..I think its just the way it's filed.
Spruce..you are probably right..that wood is usually more prevalent in ferns..here are some close examples, tell us what your eye sees..you be 'da man in this department...here is 86104

by the way the unsigned is 82369

[Darryl Wolfe]

79835 (Dec '24 signed)

[Darryl Wolfe]

81290

[Charlie Derrington]

Actually I think that's 81250.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Dang Charlie..you're good..(but I guess you should recognize it)
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
My bad..here's the real 81290

[Charlie Derrington]

I've played 81290 a lot and it is so danged close to 81250 it's scary.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

As we can see by the binding, coloration (and to some degree the wood) All of these unsigned one shown have Loar looks to them. 86104 is shown for wood comparison purposes and displayed the obvious "Fern era" traits, not those of the Unsiged batch...

[Flowerpot]

So please educate me... what are the Fern traits visible in the picture of 86104? Nothing jumps out as being obvious to my not-so-well-trained eye.

[Darryl Wolfe]

white celluloid binding
slightly thicker/wider binding
longer and more crested ridge at upper center of back
extended heel cap area
slightly smaller scroll button
elliptical shape to entire scroll
shorter scroll ridge length
maroon tinge to stain
more symmetrical/gradient style to the burst (maybe airbrush instead of hand?)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's a nice comparison of Loar/Fern era. #In this case the Fern (86104 on right) is quite Loar looking, but has the typical Fern scroll and binding..the color is rare on a fern. #Loar is my July 9...yes is those same old pics when some strings were off

[Flowerpot]

Yes, I see now, thanks. Some things are easily seen, but others - like the elliptical scroll shape - really depend on the angle to the camera. But danged if that 86104 doesn't look like a Loar on first glance.

[AlanN]

Looks like the fern needs to have its bridge moved a touch east.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Alan..yes..it apparently was not set up in that Skinner photo..recent pics show the bridge much further toward the tailpiece and not at angle..etc.

[Ken Waltham]

Thanks, that's a great Fern. Actually, it is a little different colour than a Loar in real life, but, it has no red in it at all. So, it has a warm, gentle look, like a Loar might if it was in lacquer. There is a little more orange in the top than a typical Loar, though.
I feel it is the prettiest Fern as far as colour goes, of any I've seen, ....
Except one very special one that used to live in Knoxville.
I'd give my right n** for that one.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[danb]

Frank Ford recently sent me beautiful new pictures of Loar F5 74662 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?162).

Here's one of them to get you started :

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/74662_face.jpg

[GTison]

I'm just a novice at these things but look at the back of this mandolin. Doesn't that Wood look like the back of Monroes mandolin (to someone besides me). Maybe its just distressed alot. That flame patern looks similar to me. Very Cool pics. I love this thread.

[Tom C]

It seems that on most Loars, the F-holes have a soft edge to them. Like in the shot below from the Mandolin Archive.
I do not see this in today's builders mandos. -Just an obsevation.
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/74662_serial.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

correct..73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

different angle

[danb]

For all you Loar-watchers out there.. Darryl pointed out to me that I'd missed updating quite a few sets of photos he's posted here. The archives are now caught up, so I should have everything Darryl has posted here at the cafe up at the Mandolin Archive now.

I've also added a little note when you view individual images that shows when that image was added. On very rare occasions, I remove pictures and replace them (usually because new photos are better!). A few people asked me what happened to some old photos of the Schultz Loar that I had deleted to replace with newer faster better ones.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Well...my good buddy F5Loar (Tommy I) came to the Wolfe household this weekend

Here's a little Whiskey Before Breakfast..Murray Mcdavid Bruichladdich 1989 compliments of Mr. Dan B

Mando content..July 9, 1923 #73992 and 74000

[Darryl Wolfe]

74000 and 73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

Front

[jasona]

Those both one piece backs? They are in fantastic shape, very pretty! Looks like it was a lot of fun too.

[Darryl Wolfe]

with flash..

[Darryl Wolfe]

74000..with morning sun on it..what do you think SPRUCE???

[Darryl Wolfe]

With this post..I must make an apology to Charlie and Gibson. This Loar is untouched and has a neck set depth just exactly like the new Master Models are. Notice the significant distance the fingerboard is above the scroll button and the unusually high bridge for a Loar.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Another angle..I forgot to take a shot specifically of this feature

[Darryl Wolfe]

another

[Darryl Wolfe]

The two distinct inlay patterns. #74000 on left with the open style that started during the July batch

[Darryl Wolfe]

Another "hot" shot showing difference in wood cuts

[mandopete]

Stop, stop, Darryl - you're killing us!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Spruce]

"..what do you think SPRUCE??? "

Yowee...

Looks like they lightly 'bursted it around the edges 'cause they had a nice piece of maple on their hands that they wanted to highlight?

[Darryl Wolfe]

couldn't resist

[Darryl Wolfe]

A little bit of variance in size of point protectors

[Darryl Wolfe]

72059 February 8, 1923..Photos compliments of our own F5JOE from this past weekends "BanjoThon" in Knoxville TN

[Darryl Wolfe]

72059

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Oh... the "Lore" of the "Loar" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[f5loar]

Not only is the inlay of "The Gibson" different but the flowerpots also show slight variations on a theme. Maybe 2 different pearl cutters at Gibson? It's not that light in real life. The sun brings out the highlights of the fire in the flames to the front. I thought Darryl kept his bridge height low since he no longer plays regular like I do but after a shot of whiskey before breakfast he out ran me on "Big Mon" pretty quick. All I could do was tenor him. He's not forgotten his peak days with the Knoxville Grass. But no matter how hard we try we will never out pick F5Joe on the Bluegrass Stomp.
When ole Joe enters the room I've seen other mandolin pickers get up and leave knowing they can't cut it around F5Joe.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Were not much at smiling...and that goofy look is not the Murray McDavid either

[ShaneJ]

Now that's quite a breakfast!

[AlanN]

Now, Tom looks like Fred Rodgers to me...It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's the rest of the head shots..we never looked right in any one pic

[Brian Aldridge]

this reminds me that the first time I laid eyes Tom and Darryl, they were sitting behind a table at a guitar show in Nashville, both playing Loars. That was in 1984 or thereabout. This is like deja vu all over again. Course, we were all a bit younger.

[Brian Aldridge]

I forgot to ask... is that cheesy grits in the green bowl?

[Bradley]

I thought that was SpongeBob in that there bowl....Pass the Bacon Will Ya?

[Michael Gowell]

Nice breakfast. #Two bottles of whiskey & no glasses? #You guys are rugged.

[danb]

I think we're going to have to ask Adobe to revoke your photoshop license Darryl http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Stanley Cox]

I think they were picking and drinking "Whisky Before Breakfast" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Stanley

[Darryl Wolfe]

Enough of the whiskey...74000 has a fairly substantial top...but, it is the lightest Loar weight-wise I have ever encountered.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's a neat little item I sold a while back. What a bummer..

[f5loar]

It looks like Loar did more than just tap tune F5s at Gibson. He also had to handwrite the price tags for them!
That's Loar's handwritting on that tag. He wrote left handed and played right handed just like me and Darryl!

[ronlane3]

Wow, I have more in common with Loar than I thought. I'm also left handed and play right handed.

[mandopete]

Only $250? What a bargain!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Charlie Derrington]

I know you really wished you could be perfect and use the correct hand for both, like me.(My wife is a lefty and also acknowledges that I'm in control around the house, so please don't tell her I was kidding about left-handed people, she might forget that she gave me permission to be the boss) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Seriously, I'm sure Loar was like anybody working for a medium sized company. You do anything that needs to be done. Heck, if one could pop in at Gibson in 1923, you'd probably see him sweeping up at night.

BTW Aubrey is also a lefty, but plays right-handed. I think Chris does the same.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

No kidding Charlie?...
seriously...I bat, golf and write left handed..everything else (I think) is right handed....essentially anything that takes weird equipment,.. I do right handed..things like forks, pencils and bats I do left handed (except golf that only started 8 years ago)

[Darryl Wolfe]

another pic for study..73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

again

[Darryl Wolfe]

last

[jasona]

That's in pretty nice condition. Should the felt be so impressed by the bridge and strings though?

[danb]

I think that the felt (silk velvet actually) is appropriately impressed (just as we are!).. remember it's been snugly holding a Loar to it's bosom for 80 years http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jim Hilburn]

The bridge impression is in a substantially padded piece of felt. I don't like to see that when the felt is tight to the top of the case with no padding. The top of that case would have to have a pretty good whack for it to hit the bridge.

[Spruce]

Hmmm....
#73992 is the Davis plans mando, no?
I'd remember that side wood anywhere...

Sure doesn't look like it has the marker at the 14th fret to me.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[danb]

Darryl has been photographing up a storm lately on 73992 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?52), more pictures at the link

[danb]

As we're on July 9s... here are pictures I've just recieved of a previously undocumented July 9, 1923 #73994 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/73994)

*edit* fixed link

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73994_face.jpg

[danb]

Back..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73994_back_detail.jpg

[danb]

Scroll..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73994_scroll.jpg

[danb]

Bass side.. note the side-facing binding..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73994_bass_side.jpg

[danb]

Very clean tuner plates

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73994_tuners.jpg

[Brian Aldridge]

Looks like it didn't get finished until 1925 (Color), and isn't that lacquer? Stunningly beautiful.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yes this example has some slight evidence of holdover. Monroes mandolin displays some of the same traits. It is absolutely a July 9...But the July 9 batch had some odd inconsistencies.

Most of them have a harder top layer to the finish that displays slight crazing. Mine appears french polished, while "F5LOAR"'s 74000 has a slight airbrushed lacquer top coat look to it like this one.

The example above, like Monroes has slightly post July 9 parts on it...pickguard, tuners and tailpiece are more mid 24 in detail.

None of these things are deficiencies or anything like that..they are simply weird inconsistencies that make it difficult to tell what Gibson really did as far as construction timeline. It might even be that the varnish on this batch took 6 months to dry before parts could be put on...who knows

[Charlie Derrington]

Yeah, and what's even more strange.........

The top-bound ones from this batch have (for the most part) the correct parts and the standard finish look.

Go figure.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

As usual, Charlie is exactly right. #The top bound July 9's are quite consistent..the side bound batch which is about 250 numbers later is quite odd.

Monroes mando needs a bit of discussion, and maybe Charlie can add some detail..

A few points are:
Old photos with the pickguard indicate that the orig guard was from 1924...white binding, quite wide and longer point at fretboard

Orig finish in neck area looks to be lacquer

portions of finish appear to have the 1927-8 maroon look to it

There is some indication that the orig parts were gold..very hard to tell..but they appear darkish in the old black and white pics..and I believe the TP base is brass

Why does it have a Guarantee label, and is the Master Model label under it

Charlie..inquiring minds...

[Charlie Derrington]

You are right on all counts. Definite traces of overspray.

I think it went back in the thirties for some work and had the other label installed and maybe (I say maybe because it's possible the parts were gold plated from the get-go) the parts added.

There has always been an odd nature to the side-bounds. Why only the July 9 batch (other than the June no-day)? Loar was supposedly out on tour when these mandos were shipped. Did he throw a fit when he returned and found out that some side-bound instruments with a different finish were shipped? Who knows? But it is certainly a large variation within smaller, more easily dated, incremental variations.

Charlie

[mmukav]

Great stuff fellas, thanks! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

I really enjoy hearing little details about what went on at Gibson back in the day. I have a copy of Gibson's book '100 Years of an American Icon', and some of the stuff in there is fascinating to me!

[f5loar]

Was Loar gone that Monday in July of 1923? I thought he didn't leave for tour until mid July until mid August. No Loars signed in August. The mystery of the reversed binding shall always remain a mystery. You can speculate but we weren't there that day and since it was no big deal when the last person died who did know it went to the grave. I like the "someone screwed it up" theory and did the whole batch that way and they covered it up beautifully. But then you throw in the darn June one and the theory don't work. So June is the proto type, they liked it, tried a batch and then decided they didn't like it so they switch back to the normal front binding.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I like this very simple theory...all Gibson mandolins were routed for 3/16" high by 0.070 wide binding except the F5...it needed to be about 0.100-0.110 wide or deep into the face for the triple binding.

If you accidentally just got done routing and chiseling 20 F5's to the standard dimension of all the rest of the mandolins, I'd put the triple binding on the side..meeting the catalog description and working with the channel I just cut..and go on.

[f5loar]

That would still put the June one as a prototype to see if it would pass. So the screw up was done in June when Loar was there overseeing the process. They had the 2nd batch of July's near completion when it happened in June.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I don't agree Tommy..I think the June one was just another "woops" example that happened before the July batch where they did the whole darn group...they did it that way once, so let's do it that way again. #It's also not too far fetched to think one certain individual thought it should be that way. #After all, the triple binding was on the side of the peghead way before it appeared on the face of the peghead. Triple binding on the side requires not change in the routing setup from say an F-4 from the period.#Let's also not forget that it happened again on one mando from the Feb 18, 1924 batch...old Preacher Dewey's mandolin. It's also possible that they were all part of the same FON and done at the same time.

[Ken Waltham]

For what it's worth, my June F5 with side binding is the same as my July 9 sidebound, except one thing...
The June binding is taller than the July's was.
I have no way of knowing, and in this kind of thing I would normally deferr to you guys, but, I believe the June is a prototype. They used different, and, I think, standard binding to try out the look.
Things that lead me to this are....
Triple binding on side of peghead. That doesn't appear until July.
Triple bindiing on side of fingerboard. Same, that doesn't appear until July.
Triple binding on side... goes without saying..
And.. slab cut, slip matched back. I can't say with complete certainty, most likely not until the July batch.
As you know, July is some quarter, and some slab backs. But, I don't think slab backs appear before July. I may be wrong on this point... but...

[kudzugypsy]

i think darryls theory may be correct. when i worked at gibson in the early 90's, someone screwed up the routing of a bunch of PREMIUM les paul tops....the high grade flamey ones. so, they made a run of les paul studios (the cheapest LP) with the flamey tops and transparent finishes to salvage the run. just a one off situation, but it fits that that could easily happen. you wouldnt know til you went to put the binding on and said "oops".

[kudzugypsy]

are there any color pix of monroes mando before the early 50's pocket knife episode?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Check out this unique little engraving touch on 73994

[Darryl Wolfe]

Kudsu..I'm not aware of any old color pics of Monroes mandolin. I would certainly love to see some. I've not seen any prior to around 1957 or so. What is needed is something from the late 40's or maybe even the early 50's.
What's needed is photos during the period this photo was taken. The mandolin has the scroll, pickguard and Gibson intact

[Darryl Wolfe]

Like maybe one taken on this day...remember, nobody cared about the mandolin then. Notice the strap....a real good way to lose your scroll http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[f5loar]

Which brings us to the question "Was Monroe the first F5 picker to put the strap on the big scroll?" I think so but open for photos predating when he first started to do
it which was around 1953. I think he did it because after loosing the top scroll piece the rope strap kept sliding off up there so he figured out the big scroll would hold the strap better. Any photos of pickers doing the scroll strap hold pre '53 welcomed!

[kudzugypsy]

ahhhh, another great discovery! i bet that is exactly what happened.

neccesity is the mother of all invention

i still used the old headstock cord on my old martin d-28, i just cant put myself to drilling a strap button in a pristine old martin.

[danb]

OK, here are a few from what I think is my single best ever photosession.. John Reischman's February 18, 1924 Loar f5 #75327 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?182)

I'm going to do some nice big prints of this one!

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75327_peghead.jpg

[danb]

Here's the full frontal:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75327_front.jpg

[danb]

Some scroll..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75327_scroll_front.jpg

[danb]

Nice blue tint in that flowerpot inlay

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75327_flowerpot.jpg