Another interesting Ebay Gibson F4 for all of us to discuss

[Gary Hedrick]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Mandolin-/200705133569?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebaf54c01


Here is an interesting listing......ad says serial number in the 8's....and in the photo it looks like an 8 but the details cry out 1918 and before......could the 8 be a 3? thus making it a 1917 (with the rest of the numbers thrown in)

Looks like a nice instrument in reasonable shape and at a reasonable price.

I wrote him with those observations and pointed out that a back shot would be good thing to add.


Oops.....forgot to add the standard...." I don't have any financial interest in this instrument and don't even know the folks listing it"
Any thoughts????

[Kip Carter]

Just my thinking... but it looks like it has had a hard life. I see what looks like some nick on the body scroll and the mandolin sitting in that case as banged up as the case is? Well without holding this one in your hands I think you don't have good picture of what it's real condition is.

That said, very cool.
Kip...

[Bill Snyder]

The serial number certainly does appear to be 84646 but this one has Handel tuners and no truss rod. I am not sure that the 8 appears to be written in the same hand as the rest of the serial number, it could be a 3 overwritten to be an 8 so I think you could be correct Gary.

[pfox14]

That serial # has to start with a 3 for it to make any sense in terms of dating this mandolin.

[f5loar]

What I see is two water spots that dropped on the label making it look like an 8. The 8 is not close enough to the other 4 numbers to be part of them. Not sure how these water spots get on the labels but I have seen it many times before. Sweat dropping on it from picking "Rawhide" real fast? Beer bottle dropplets when you open your favorite brew near the hole? Some kid shot a watergun at you on stage and it went through the hole? Spray wax cleaner droplets when they cleaned it up? I don't know but it's a water spot to me. This would explain the no truss rod, etc. It's not post Loar but pre-war.

[George R. Lane]

For a mandolin that is close to 90 years old it looks pretty good, The case may have had a hard life but, better the case than the mandolin.

[Kip Carter]

Externally yes.. but if the mandolin was in the case when the case took those shots, I'd be a little concerned about how the shock affected the instrument inside.
Kip...

[pfox14]

The case does not appear to be in worse shape than you would expect given its age. The mandolin appears to be in very good shape. I definitely agree it has to be pre-WWI

[Dan Margolis]

Zero pix of the back or sides, and only two closeups. If you're trying to sell a costly instrument online in the digital age, why would you NOT have lots of great pictures?

[Kip Carter]

I just sent the seller the following message:
A group of us that are interested in getting more detailed photos of your mandolin. Is that possible? We'd like to see tighter shots all over but the tag inside is of great interest to our collectors as well.

Has the instrument been played recently by someone and has there been a qualified luthier looking over the instrument recently?

See what they come back with...
Kip...

[mrmando]

I wrote him with those observations
Me too ... we'll see what happens.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I don't know enough about the distinction between an F2 and F4 (but I seem to recall Handel tuners were on F4 only?), but I thought it was interesting that the model number on the label appeared to have been changed at one point - from a F2 to an F4 (or vice versa). Could this also mean the serial number may have been 'touched up' afterwards? I guess we won't know for sure, but I wish we had a FON for accurate dating.

[mrmando]

We'd like to see tighter shots all over but the tag inside is of great interest to our collectors as well.
Huh? There's a pretty good shot of the label already.

I don't know... as a seller, I will shoot additional detail photos if I think they'll help me sell an instrument, but if I got the sense that people wanted photos but didn't plan to bid, I'm not sure I would bother to indulge them.

Has the instrument been played recently by someone and has there been a qualified luthier looking over the instrument recently?
That's a good question, and one I often forget to ask.

[mrmando]

I don't know enough about the distinction between an F2 and F4
F2: no back binding, no decorative inlay (just logo) on headstock. It's definitely an F4 ... the change on the label looks like a simple goof that was immediately corrected using the same pencil.

I doubt anyone "converted" this from an F2 to an F4 ... if they did, it was a really good conversion job!

[mandobassman]

No one has mentioned the bridge yet. Wouldn't a post-Loar F4 have an adjustable bridge. Certainly seems like teens to me - Handel tuners. non-adjustable bridge. The serial number does look like a 3 to me.

[Steve Roberts]

Hey, the mando comes with a new packet of strings. How can you go wrong?

[danb]

Yup, no way that's 1928..

[fiddlemike]

Gibsons are way overrated. Can get a decent player and barrels of beer for that money.

[allenhopkins]

1. It's not a 1920's instrument. They stopped putting Handel tuners on around 1917-18; apparently they came from Germany, and there was, like, this war... (I find on perusing the Cafe glossary, that their German origin is "claimed but not proven.")
2. Whether it's a "3" or an "8" on the serial number, you can tell the vintage just by looking at the instrument. Gibson serials were apparently penciled in when instruments were actually shipped out of the factory, which means that if a mandolin sat in the back of the warehouse for a couple years before being shipped, it would have a serial number much "later" than another that was shipped right away. Not the normal course of business, but not unheard of either.
3. Handel tuners went on F-2's, F-4's, and A-4's, I believe.
4. Gibsons are neither overrated nor underrated. They are what they are, and if you like 'em, fine, and if you don't, fine. This is a nice vintage mandolin, without knowing what repairs may be needed, but $4K's a lot to put up on eBay. I'll risk a few hundred now and again, but when we get into four figures, I want to be dealing with a "known quantity" dealer, and to have a chance to play the mandolin before I plunk down that much of my cash.

[Gary Hedrick]

Some thoughts on buying a mandolin sight unseen from someone you don't know.
I rarely do it unless it is a Cafe person. I have bought Ebay mandolins and for around this amount of money so perhaps I am just a risk taker with too much cash at times. (Love those bonuses!)

I'd like to ask the group their thoughts on risk and what they look for to mitigate that risk. There is a lot of fear of the unknown for the members on this issue. One does have to be very cautious but I have done it.

If I were to buy this instrument I'd look for:
1. Does it have all the correct pieces...tuners, pickguard, tailpiece and cover, bridge etc.
2. Does it have any cracks in the wood.
3. Is the top sunk
4. Is the neck straight
5. Has the neck been cracked and repaired..... the same for the curls on the peghead.
6. Has is been refinished
7. Original case?
8. Any damage to the bindings and points?

A loose brace on a 4 can be fixed easily ..it's the top sinking that is the issue.

These items can be seen by good pictures...except for the top brace. I'd get the seller to tell me all of these answers in writing so if something isn't right I have recourse with Ebay and I'd take a "chance" and have. I haven't gotten burned yet but probably have cursed myself with this posting. Proceed with caution but I have done it sucessfully.

[allenhopkins]

You're a braver person than I. The mandolins I've bought on eBay -- Merrill aluminum bowl-back, Howe-Orme mandolinetto -- were rarities I couldn't have found locally. And they were selling for a couple hundred buxx, so the risk was manageable.

All the questions you're asking are the right ones. But answering them based on a bunch of on-line photos, is where I start getting cold feet. Without the instrument in your hands, dealing with a person you've never met, and who often isn't a pro dealer, you're relying on the good faith of the seller.

And, in most cases, you're OK. Despite the well-documented incidence of fraud and misleading descriptions on eBay, the vast majority of sellers there are operating ethically. They may not be as well-informed or expert as we'd like, but hell, they're amateurs, in most cases, and doing the best they can.

I stepped outside my comfort zone recently, buying a Gibson tenor lute from a guy in CA, who'd contacted me -- probably after Googling "tenor lute," finding I'd said in a Cafe thread that I'd like to buy one, and getting my e-mail address of my website. He was listing on CraigsList, and had a few pics; we dickered a bit over the price, finally agreed, and I sent him a cashier's check for a significant amount of money. This on the basis of two phone calls and a half-dozen e-mail exchanges. Don't think I didn't wonder, as I put the check in the mail, whether I'd been "had." But the instrument came through just as described, not a "stone bargain" but fairly priced. No problem, as they say...

What I would say, and I bet you'd agree, is that the more contact with the seller, the more confidence you have in buying. You can tell damn near everything just from the way that he/she deals with you: the level of knowledge, transparency, and responsiveness. Not that there aren't "con men" out there who can seem sincere while robbing you blind, but it's a lot of work to fake honesty in a significant series of exchanges.

Before I'd send anyone $4K, I'd be talking with them a bunch of times. Chances are everything's above-board, but still, that's a lot of money. It would have to be a one-of-a-kind, just-what-I've-always-wanted, haven't-seen-it-anywhere-else mandolin, for me to pop for that kind of price.

[Kip Carter]

Okay guys... here is the response from the seller...

Hi,
The mandolin has not been played recently. We will post some tighter shots shortly. Thank you for your interest.

Soooo.... we can take from this that we will see some tighter shots of it and this bad boy has been sitting around gathering dust.
Regards,
Kip...

[Tom C]

Looks like a 3 as it has a loop in the middle- Unless it's a snowman "8", but the loop does not look like a snowman 8

[Gary Hedrick]

Ah yes Allen doing this is not for the faint of heart. But as you and I have experienced it can be done safely. I can say that I never had a bad experience. Some of the instruments weren't as good sounding as I had hoped but that is to be expected once in a while.
Now selling has been another story. I am very transparent but that sometimes isn't enough....ah such is life.

It is buyer beware situation........Scott tries very very hard to keep us all safe here but there can be pain even here in our little world of mandolin geeks.....

[Kip Carter]

New pictures are added to the posting... check it out.
Kip...

[mrmando]

I see finish checking and a little loose binding on the fretboard extension, but nothing major.

[George R. Lane]

Ok. I have blown this image up in photoshop and from what I can see it is a 3 that someone has changed to an 8. If you look closely the loop in the middle appears to be a loop some would make when drawing the number 3 and then someone has added the little legs (what I call them) to make it an 8.


81544

[Annette Siegel]

Methinks there is a little crack on the top...from a new pic...bass side of sound hole. I agree about being very shy/crazy about spending 4K on a mandy you don't have at least 48hr approval on. I recently had to return 2 different F4's for issues not disclosed by "well known" music stores, but they did have 48hr approval. It's also a issue of sound...don't ya think...you can only know that after you play it.

Happy to say I finally ended up with a nice F4, it was on the bay with no return. I emailed the seller, and said I couldn't buy his mandolin without the 48hr approval and after not selling it the first time he re-listed with 3 day approval, I tried it and ended up keeping it...Yeah!

Annette

www.livingtreemusic.com

[f5loar]

The new photos and info. do show it's not a waterspot but a 3 and they now give the FON of 3385 which pretty much nails this one to 1917. Seems to fit that era too with the tuners and solid bridge and all. Nice looking flamed back too. I'd say it's worth $4K on a gamble if the top ain't smashed in.

[f5loar]

FYI in the new March issue of Vintage Guitar Magazine in their monthly up-to-date price guide they list a 1918 F4 at a low price of $5,700 and a high price of $7000.

[Gary Hedrick]

nice looking back.....and as tom says...the price is right if the top is sound....and the neck isn't twisted....Now if I just had one of those bonuses ......college payments await...

[Gary Hedrick]

Also Tom every time I see your avitar I get a startle.....WSM is back amoung us....

[houseworker]

I think it's a fair starting price, the instrument is clearly original and complete; the Handel tuners are a big plus. If the seller would ship to the UK I'd be debating whether to bid on it.

Looks like there's the start of a small split in the top to the left of the bridge. That wouldn't deter me, although the seller's fairly minimal feedback might.

[lmartnla]

Some thoughts on buying a mandolin sight unseen from someone you don't know.
I rarely do it unless it is a Cafe person. I have bought Ebay mandolins and for around this amount of money so perhaps I am just a risk taker with too much cash at times. (Love those bonuses!)

I'd like to ask the group their thoughts on risk and what they look for to mitigate that risk. There is a lot of fear of the unknown for the members on this issue. One does have to be very cautious but I have done it.

My luck has been pretty good on Ebay. During the period roughly between 2004 through 2007 we bought 4 vintage mandolins off Ebay, a 1913 Gibson A4, a Vega cylinder back, a Lyon and Healy Professional Style A, and a 1917 Gibson F4. All were exactly as described except the A4, which had a non-disclosed 2 inch incipient center back seam separation at the butt end that I had cleated by a luthier to prevent progression (seller lied it had not been there when he shipped it). The prices paid were all mid range to only slightly high for such instruments but there were numerous bidders in each case along with me.

In contrast, my one vintage instrument purchase from our Cafe (from a luthier, no less) described only one repaired top crack. But there were two top cracks, both clearly visible and repaired with cleats that were easily felt by my forefinger through oval hole. In addition there was an undisclosed clearly visible short seam separation between top and side in the area between the neck and scroll, and furthermore the back had been oversprayed. The seller complained he was just a struggling luthier who was not so experienced in evaluating vintage instruments although he had been a little suspicious about the back finish. I guess he can build them but not evaluate them.

You can run into dishonesty wherever you go to purchase long distance. I don't care to do it any longer, but I love looking at the classifieds.---Lou

[Jim Nollman]

I'm certainly not in the collector's league of most of you, but i have been confronted by the same issue of what it takes, for me to consider dropping 4 figures on an unexamined mandolin. Four things have to align for me to ever consider such a thing.

1. I have to already be chomping at the bit to find that particular instrument before I ever saw that it was up for sale. A perfect Lyon and Healey (long neck, with the scroll headstock) is an example of something that could get me to bid with stars in my eyes.

2. The price has to be a steal. An OK-condition Gibson F4 for $4000 is too high. At that price it would have to be in perfect condition. Plus, if i did want an F4 from that era, there's enough of them around that without too much trouble, I could drive or possibly fly not too far from home to check it out firsthand.

3. The photos have to scream "Nothing hidden from view."

4. You want my $4000? I want a recording of the instrument made by a competent mandolin player that gives me some idea of how it sounds. A video is better. This criteria may show that I'm not really a collector. But that's how I dropped a relative bundle on my current love, a BRW 3-point. i was already lusting after one only because it seems so uniquely elegant. The I found out Ben Wilcox only built 3 or 4 of them. The jazzmando website then posted a stellar review of a prototype for the other 3. 6 months went by, when out of the blue an established player posted one for sale in the Cafe classifieds. I downloaded some of his music from iTunes, listened closely, then talked to him on the phone to find out precisely why he was selling it. He was saving up for a high end bandolim. I bought the 3-point the next day.

[Utility Picker]

When I got my Gibson F-2, I was told it was made in 1917. It has the Handel tuners, the same March 30, 09 date on the pick guard, and the same July 4, 1911 date on the swiveling "anchor" for the pick guard that the pictured F-4 has. The FON number on mine is 3420, which is 35 numbers past the 3385 FON number of the F-4. When Joe Spann's book came out, it turns out my F-2 was actually made in April of 1916. I'm guessing the F-4 under discussion is either an early 1916 model, or a late 1915 model given it's FON number. Just my imo.

UP

[stevie]

Hi all............There is something else that I noticed in the photo that George has blown up, look at the F4 on the label and behind the 4 it almost looks like a 2 under it??????????????? Anyone see this?

[George R. Lane]

Hi all............There is something else that I noticed in the photo that George has blown up, look at the F4 on the label and behind the 4 it almost looks like a 2 under it??????????????? Anyone see this?

Stevie,
I too noticed that and I concluded that whomever filled out the label may have made a mistice and drew the 4 with alot of pressure to make up for their mistake.

[Ken Waltham]

I noticed that right off. Confusing, because it is obviously not, nor ever has been, an F2.

[Gerry Cassidy]

Another advantage can be, as it is for me in this case, living in close proximity to the seller. Florence, depending on what part, is 30-45 minutes away from me. If I were in the market you could bet I'd be down there giving it a go before I bought it.

If it weren't close, I would use any connections I have in the online world to find someone close to check it out for me.

[Dan Margolis]

After hearing my friend playing his newly-acquired F4 a few months ago (it really was spectacular), I wish that I could afford one.

[Annette Siegel]

Regretfully, not all F4's are created equal (sound wise) always good idea to play um first : )


After hearing my friend playing his newly-acquired F4 a few months ago (it really was spectacular), I wish that I could afford one.

[Utility Picker]

Sold - - - for $4,149.00

UP

[moucon]

Gibsons are way overrated. Can get a decent player and barrels of beer for that money.

Whatever. think Picassos are overrated too but the global art world thinks otherwise.

I know this is an old thread but can't help myself. I'm normally a lurker but I keep seeing the "Gibsons are overrated...overpriced...over-whatever....". And some/many/most of us probably agree with you at some level. So what? We're talking market/collector value here - NOT playability, not tone, not anything else tangible. And that makes whomever posts the latest "Gibson slam" look like a horse's rear-end, ignorant of how the collector market works. At the end of the day they're as "rated" as the market is willing to pay for.

[mrmando]

And that makes whomever posts the latest "Gibson slam" look like a horse's rear-end, ignorant of how the collector market works.
Nice first post. What, you joined the forum just to call people names?

We're talking market/collector value here - NOT playability, not tone, not anything else tangible.
No, we're talking about all of the above. All those topics are interrelated, and it would be silly to try to segregate them.

[jim simpson]

Also Tom every time I see your avitar I get a startle.....WSM is back amoung us....

You mean that's not Tom?!

[Gary Hedrick]

Naw.....that avatar is waaaaaay too handsome to be Tom...

[mrmando]

Nobody's made a wax dummy of Tom ... yet.