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McGruff
Jan-18-2012, 10:34pm
Any good print resources on this? I've seen it referred to a number of times, but no in-depth description. I'm new (not yet, actually) to Mandolin and theory . . . I've got a vague feel for the Circle of Fifths (vague being an overstatement) . . . but the Nashville Number System is not something I'd heard of before joining this site.

I'd like a recommended print book. Old fashioned, I guess.

Paul Kotapish
Jan-19-2012, 12:45am
If you really want a book, there are plenty of them out there, including this one, which comes with its own website: http://nashvillenumbersystem.com/

In a nutshell, instead of tying a song to a specific set of chords, the systems refers to chord relationships that can be transposed to any key on the fly.

Once you know a bit more about keys and the basic chords that go in each key, this will make more sense, but if you are in the key of G, the I, IV, and V (or 1, 4, and 5) chords are G, C, and D. These are the chords based on the number corresponding to the degree of the notes in the scale in each key. (G A B C D E F# G for G, etc.)

Or in other keys:

I IV V VI
G C D Em
D G A Bm
A D E F#m
E A B C#m . . . and so on.

With the Nashville system, instead of using standard notation or telling the players that the song goes from G to C, back to G, to D, back to G, they might just say, one four one five one with a two in the chorus. or write it I IV I V I.

As noted above, this system has the advantage of allowing the session to change keys on a dime without having to rewrite any charts. This is handy if the singer decides his/her voice can't handle a certain high or low note or just plain sounds better in a different key.

Some session leaders take the shorthand even further and just say something like eleven-eleven (for four bars of I), forty-four (for two bars of IV), eleven (two bars of I), fifty-five (tow bars of V), eleven (back to the one for two bars).

Some charts adhere to Roman numerals, but in Nashville, Arabic numerals tend to rule. Here's a fairly details chart using the system:

81191

There are additional symbols that have specific meanings in the system, too, such as diamonds, which indicate that the chord should ring out, and other symbols to indicate chokes, diminished chord, no third in the chord, and so forth.

More than likely they'd also use some other shared nomenclature for well-known forms, like "'round the clock" for playing through the circle of fifths, etc.

There are some good explanations and examples here:

http://howmusicreallyworks.com/Pages_Chapter_6/6_4.html

and here:

http://nvsongwriter.hubpages.com/hub/nashvillenumbers

BradKlein
Jan-19-2012, 2:13am
Nice post, Paul. I hadn't realized the system had evolved so far beyond simply noting chords I - VII!

mando1man
Jan-19-2012, 8:49am
Cool, check out my Nashville Number Chart software. I believe I have the only software for making pro charts on a computer:
http://www.robhainesstudio.com/numchart/index.htm

Big Joe
Jan-19-2012, 9:20am
It seems everyone has their own variation on the number system as well. They are very similar, but may have slight differences. It does not take long to figure it out if you know the basics. I often have to play with nothing... not even being told what key. I prefer a chart so we can at least have a path to where we are going. Playing by ear is great, but the charts just put everyone on the same page. Unless you have to have heavy orchestration or have to play a particular note at a particular place I prefer the number charts to sheet music. But, as discussed in another thread, all methods are important in the right place at the right time.

wildpikr
Jan-19-2012, 10:09am
Paul,

I've heard of the Nashville Number System but never committed it to memory. I'm confused by the example and some of the terms, 4/6 b7, 6-7, 5-7, etc. Are there a lot of 7th chords in this tune? Would you mind translating a couple of lines from your example?

Thanks and sorry for the confusion.

MikeEdgerton
Jan-19-2012, 10:33am
Just to give those that are unfamiliar with how widely used the Nashville numbering system is, many years ago at the Windgap Bluegrass festival Harry Grant managed to get Chris Hillman, Herb Pedersen and Peter Rowan on stage together. I can't recall the bass players name but he was unfamiliar some of the songs, one being Sin City. I have a picture of Herb counting out the chord changes with his fingers so that the bass player can hang in with them. It is widely used.

multidon
Jan-19-2012, 10:52am
Does anybody realize that this so-called "Nashville" numbering system is actually lifted straight from classical music theory 101? If I had a nickel for every time I've had to harmonically analyze music this way in my college days I'd be a millionaire! I think it's funny that bluegrass players think they invented it. The harmonic numbering system based on degrees of the scale goes back to the 1600's. No bluegrass then! The only thing original about this is its application to jams. Pretty cool in that aspect. It makes you think about the structure of the song and how it's put together. Anyone who can deal with this system, understand it, and use it will end up a better and more knowledgeable musician.

Rroyd
Jan-19-2012, 10:57am
The numbering system is universally used, whether you are in a college music theory class or in a Nashville recording session. The differences are, as Paul mentioned, the symbols used, such as Roman vs. Arabic, but if you understand how one works, you can generally figure out the others. Usually when Roman numerals are used, major chords use upper case and minors are lower case, but often there are variations for descriptions of chords with added notes, depending on the author, but it will still understandable. I maj7 , I #7, 1 #7 all are the tonic chord with an added 7th tone one half step below the octave. i.e. G chord with an F# added in the key of G. If you have a basic understanding of one system, you should be able to manage with another.

McGruff
Jan-19-2012, 10:57am
Does anybody realize that this so-called "Nashville" numbering system is actually lifted straight from classical music theory 101? If I had a nickel for every time I've had to harmonically analyze music this way in my college days I'd be a millionaire! I think it's funny that bluegrass players think they invented it. The harmonic numbering system based on degrees of the scale goes back to the 1600's. No bluegrass then! The only thing original about this is its application to jams. Pretty cool in that aspect. It makes you think about the structure of the song and how it's put together. Anyone who can deal with this system, understand it, and use it will end up a better and more knowledgeable musician.

That's kind of why I want to learn it. Seems like a good way to learn music theory basics but in an immediately applicable way.

swampy
Jan-19-2012, 11:08am
Pop music, it's as easy as 1, 4, 5!

Chip Booth
Jan-19-2012, 11:24am
Learn it everyone! I have never met one single pro caliber player that didn't speak this language.

EdSherry
Jan-19-2012, 11:24am
At the risk of misinterpreting Paul's chart:

5-7 is the minor seventh of the 5 chord (e.g., Gm7 in the key of C);
6-7 is the minor seventh of the 6 chord (e.g., Am7 in the key of C);
b7 is the flatted-seven chord (e.g., Bb in the key of C);
4/6 probably means a four chord followed by a six chord (e.g., F to A in the key of C).

Chip Booth
Jan-19-2012, 11:26am
For more information there have been some pretty good, long threads discussing this topic in the Music Theory forum.

JeffD
Jan-19-2012, 11:47am
Learn it everyone! I have never met one single pro caliber player that didn't speak this language.

I learned it from a tenor banjo player. The hard part is getting started. Seeing the same old thing in a new way. But really, its just a different way of organizing what you already know.

stratman62
Jan-19-2012, 12:40pm
This might help
81204

AlanN
Jan-19-2012, 12:56pm
Many of my picker friends don't know this. Maddenning. 2nd nature to me.

Paul Kotapish
Jan-19-2012, 1:07pm
Don,

I don't think anyone in Nashville would claim to have invented the system from scratch, but the particulars of the system--using Arabic rather than Roman numerals, the clumping without reference to bar lines, and the specific set symbols were unique to Nashville and other country-oriented recording studios. In L.A. or NYC the session player were much more likely to get conventionally notated sheet music or a fake-book style chart with specific keys (and associated chords) called out. Any transposition would require the musician to make the mental leap from key to key. Not necessarily a big deal for experienced players, but prone to confusion. The value of the Nashville approach is that it is key independent and allows quick transitions between keys if needed.

And it was Nashville session players, including early adopters and refiners like Charlie McCoy and the Jordanaires, not bluegrass musicians, who developed the current system.

Mike,
I think Ed has it right in his post above. If I saw a 4/3, though I'd have to clarify whether that was referencing chords changes or a IV chord with the third in the bass (in the key of D that would be a G chord over a B note in the bass).

I've never worked in Nashville, but I've talked with a bunch of folks who have--and do--and it's not unusual for the session producer or songwriter to just talk through the changes rather than hand out charts, so that each musician would either just scribble their own charts or do it from memory and by ear.

Mark Robertson-Tessi
Jan-19-2012, 1:43pm
At the risk of misinterpreting Paul's chart:

5-7 is the minor seventh of the 5 chord (e.g., Gm7 in the key of C);
6-7 is the minor seventh of the 6 chord (e.g., Am7 in the key of C);
b7 is the flatted-seven chord (e.g., Bb in the key of C);
4/6 probably means a four chord followed by a six chord (e.g., F to A in the key of C).

Agreed, except I think the 4/6 is a four chord with the 6 in the bass. I.e., in D Major, that would be a G major chord with the B in the bass. Also the underlined pairs indicate two chords per bar, as opposed to the single numbers which are for full bars.

Cheers
MRT

SincereCorgi
Jan-19-2012, 2:06pm
Agreed, except I think the 4/6 is a four chord with the 6 in the bass. I.e., in D Major, that would be a G major chord with the B in the bass. Also the underlined pairs indicate two chords per bar, as opposed to the single numbers which are for full bars.

That's why I like Roman numerals, you can't get mixed up as easily when things get complicated. That chart of Paul's really puts the system to the limit.

blmjr
Jan-19-2012, 2:24pm
That's a good version of the chart - thanks!

JeffD
Jan-19-2012, 2:44pm
What confuses me is that sometimes II refers to a major and sometimes a minor. I worked with a guy who liked I ii iii IV V vi vii I. That just makes sense to me.

Best to get clarification.

From an operating point of view what is cool is that you can assign closed chord shapes to each number, and be free of key signature. More than that, you can assign cool closed form double stops and turn arounds to each number, and my gosh you are off to the races.

Paul Kotapish
Jan-19-2012, 2:59pm
Agreed, except I think the 4/6 is a four chord with the 6 in the bass. I.e., in D Major, that would be a G major chord with the B in the bass. Also the underlined pairs indicate two chords per bar, as opposed to the single numbers which are for full bars. MRT

Mark, This is a confusing part of the system, I think.

When most folks I know chart a chord/bass symbol, the bass part of the equation often references the notes of the chords--not the key, so a G over B would be written as 4/3, at least in my experience. A 4/6 would be G/E, which would be pretty unusual, but apparently a lot of the Nashville guys notate it that way.

It's certainly not a hard-and-fast system, and the rules change.

McGruff
Jan-19-2012, 3:02pm
From an operating point of view what is cool is that you can assign closed chord shapes to each number, and be free of key signature. More than that, you can assign cool closed form double stops and turn arounds to each number, and my gosh you are off to the races.

I'm sure that will be cool to someday . . . but today it is just random words on a page . . .

Paul Kotapish
Jan-19-2012, 3:06pm
What confuses me is that sometimes II refers to a major and sometimes a minor. I worked with a guy who liked I ii iii IV V vi vii I. That just makes sense to me.


This can be a point of confusion. Some guys insist that when using 1, 4, 5 instead of I, IV, V then all chords are major unless otherwise indicated (2m or 2-). Other guys claim that you always assume that the 2 and 6 are minor. Scholars differ, so . . . ask.

I agree that the Roman numerals a clearer with the lower case indicating minors.

Paul Kotapish
Jan-19-2012, 3:08pm
There are also a bunch of nicknames for turnarounds, common kickoffs, and bridge progressions, which I can't remember at the moment.

wildpikr
Jan-19-2012, 3:39pm
Thanks for the explanations. I'll need to work on applying it...

Mark Robertson-Tessi
Jan-19-2012, 3:54pm
Mark, This is a confusing part of the system, I think.

When most folks I know chart a chord/bass symbol, the bass part of the equation often references the notes of the chords--not the key, so a G over B would be written as 4/3, at least in my experience. A 4/6 would be G/E, which would be pretty unusual, but apparently a lot of the Nashville guys notate it that way.

It's certainly not a hard-and-fast system, and the rules change.

Hmm... Maybe there are different conventions floating about. I don't use the system all that frequently, but all the charts I've seen with x/y always show the bass note in terms of the key, not the chord. I.e. pretty sure a 5/7 means play the V chord with the 7th note of the scale in the bass. The 7th note of the scale is the third of the V chord, making it the first inversion V chord.

Of course a quick look around the net shows that most of the examples of alternate bass are "1/3 = first inversion I chord" which doesn't answer our question either way!

Cheers
MRT

Geordie
Jan-19-2012, 3:59pm
This might help
81204Nice! Thanx!

Mike Bunting
Jan-19-2012, 4:00pm
The way I learned it was that the ii, iii, and vi were minors (as they naturally are) w/o any notation unless you want them to be major and 7ths too. The V dominant is assumed to be a 7th too.

Big Joe
Jan-19-2012, 6:00pm
If I were to see a 4/6 or something similar, I would ask the leader if he wanted a 4 in the bass, or was it a split bar. Sometimes it is for the bass player or sometimes for everyone. If it is a split bar in 4/4 time it would be two beats of the 4 chord and two beats of the 6 chord. Every director or band leader does it their own way. The cool thing about the number systems is that it works as long as everyone knows what the director wants. I play with the same guys often so I know what they want with the charts. If I play with someone I am not sure of I will ask what they want. They don't mind answering because they know charts are written in a lot of ways.

Not only do you know the chordal and rhythmic structure of the song, but you also know the lead because it follows the chordal progression. If you know or even kind of know the melody you can play a good lead or fill part to the song. It even works for instrumentals and does allow a lot of room for improvisation.

Charts, like sheet music, can be very different. Some will be quite simple and only use the basics needed to get through the song. Others will have a well defined chart with many changes and a lot of information. Both work, but cannot be used together at the same time. Music is a wonderful thing and the ability to do it in a very basic manner or to use substantial substitutions and altered progressions to achieve the same thing.

It is pretty easy to learn, but I am amazed at how many very smart people never quite seem to understand it. I prefer it much more than just a chord chart with chord names. I can play from them, but I am just used to the number system after having used it for over 30 years. All systems work if you know what it is and what the band leader wants from you.

Paul Kotapish
Jan-19-2012, 6:08pm
[QUOTE=Mark Robertson-Tessi;1011300]Hmm... Maybe there are different conventions floating about. I don't use the system all that frequently, but all the charts I've seen with x/y always show the bass note in terms of the key, not the chord.

You are probably right, Mark. That would make it more consistent with the philosphy of the system, I guess. I'm sure whatever I've worked with has been a west-coast variant with its own set of quirks.

Paul Kotapish
Jan-19-2012, 6:14pm
Regardless of how deeply one gets into any particular system and it's details, learning the hear and think about chord progressions are relationships rather than as fixed chords is a critical step for anyone serious about understanding music.

It doesn't require much in the way of theory to get your brain around the basic I, IV, V relationship and to recognize when a song or tune moves between those, and with some exposure to some other familiar examples, one can quickly learn to recognize when a ii or vi (or II or VI) are in the progression, too. With practice, you can more-or-less learn and chart songs without even having an instrument in your hand.

Mark Robertson-Tessi
Jan-19-2012, 6:19pm
I'm sure whatever I've worked with has been a west-coast variant with its own set of quirks.

I've only worked with NNS charts on rare occasion so I'm not sure how prevalent the slash notation is for bass vs. split, and as Big Joe says, it seems to vary depending on who wrote the chart! So probably we'll find many different methods if we look.

Cheers
MRT

JeffD
Jan-19-2012, 6:20pm
If I play with someone I am not sure of I will ask what they want. They don't mind answering because they know charts are written in a lot of ways. .

There it is.

JeffD
Jan-19-2012, 6:24pm
It doesn't require much in the way of theory to get your brain around the basic I, IV, V relationship and to recognize when a song or tune moves between those, and with some exposure to some other familiar examples, one can quickly learn to recognize when a ii or vi (or II or VI) are in the progression, too.

This, to me at least, is not an understanding thing, its an ear training practice (or lack of). It has always been hard for me to hear the chord changes, because I am so focused on the melody. My downfall is that I have learned to "read" guitar, so I often cheat the changes of a nearby guitar player. Once I get it, I am good to go, but I am often too lazy to hear it.

JeffD
Jan-19-2012, 6:29pm
I'm sure that will be cool to someday . . . but today it is just random words on a page . . .

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be obtuse.

Closed form just means no open strings. So if you know a four fingered G chord, a four fingerd C chord and a four fingered D chord, and you can switch between them pretty well, then "assign" the G chord as I and the C chord is IV and the D is V. If you move those shapes up two frets, you have the I, IV, V chords in the key of A. and so on up the neck in any key whatever.

Mark Robertson-Tessi
Jan-19-2012, 6:34pm
There it is.

Yes. That is, until you find a chart on the internet!

Tina MBee
Jan-19-2012, 6:50pm
My mando teacher taught it to me, but I'm probably the only student he had that went on with it and took it to heart. The pickers around here thought I was crazy when I use it to say how a song starts <1-5-1 turnaround then it goes to the 4>. But when I heard Jimmy G. and Moondi K. use it on stage to quickly arrange a song that someone called from the audience I knew I wasn't nuts! I think of chord shapes as 1-4-5 etc. and it's like one post said it's easy to move it up and down the neck. The only issue I had was that I thought in numbers so well I didn't think of the actual chord being played so it made it difficult to hunt for the melody. And yes, I use numbers - Roman numerals confuse me :) Makes it so easy to transpose when I'm trying to figure out what key I want to sing a song in. i like it - glad my teacher showed it to me.

McGruff
Jan-19-2012, 6:55pm
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be obtuse.

Closed form just means no open strings. So if you know a four fingered G chord, a four fingerd C chord and a four fingered D chord, and you can switch between them pretty well, then "assign" the G chord as I and the C chord is IV and the D is V. If you move those shapes up two frets, you have the I, IV, V chords in the key of A. and so on up the neck in any key whatever.

you were fine . . . i'm just a newb. your explanation makes sense . . . Sounds like learning chords in their four fingered forms is a must. Good to know before I get lazy habits.

Big Joe
Jan-19-2012, 10:49pm
Two finger, three finger, and four finger chords are all valid and can be a very important part of your toolbox. There are times when chopping on just the two bass courses will drive as well as a full four finger chord. It is just a matter of practice to know what to do when. Fortunately, it is a continuing learning process for all of us.

I get charts with I, IV, V and also as 1, 4, 5. They mean the same. Like I said before, it is all dependent upon who wrote the chart. The same with ways to signify minors. I have seen some guys just write a 3 or a 6 (or its Roman equivalent) and you are supposed to know they are minor chords. Unfortunately, there are times when you need a 3 or 6 major chord and there is no differentiation in those cases. That can become confusing. I usually just rewrite my chart so I can understand what we are doing. As long as everyone has the same playbook everything goes very smooth. It's when the band gets conflicting charts that problems arise. Of course, it makes itself known very quickly. Then you just sit down and work out the chart so everyone is together.

Ear training is an important part of the learning process. The more you listen and practice listening the better you will get. I will often listen to music (especially when I am driving) and call out the changes as I go. If I run across a change I am not sure of I think carefully and usually have it the next time through. It is a fun process. If you are not sure, listen to the bass. They will lead you where you need to go. If you can listen to two things at once, listen to the bass and the melody. That will usually get the job done. You may not play the same thing as the bass, but you will begin to hear the movement of the progression and can feel and hear the anticipated changes.

greentub
Jan-25-2012, 5:18pm
Any good print resources on this? I've seen it referred to a number of times, but no in-depth description. I'm new (not yet, actually) to Mandolin and theory . . . I've got a vague feel for the Circle of Fifths (vague being an overstatement) . . . but the Nashville Number System is not something I'd heard of before joining this site.

I'd like a recommended print book. Old fashioned, I guess.

I've written a short and to-the-point booklet on the Nashville Number System that many have appreciated. It's called Diamond on the 1. Check it out at http://www.diamondonthe1.com.

Thanks,
Jonathan

MikeEdgerton
Jan-25-2012, 5:49pm
In post number 7 of this thread I mention this image. I just bumped into it.

BradKlein
Jan-25-2012, 11:07pm
nice!