Dude Finishing Method

[daveb]

I have seen the DIY series on Lynn building a beautiful honey colored mandolin. I am wanting to try the same finish method he is using. Shellac base,then brush on varnish with French polish top coat.
Does anyone know what varnish he is using ?

Thanks,

Dave

[Chris Baird]

I've asked and it is proprietary. Or in other words, a secret.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I know..but I promised not to tell.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Flowerpot]

Many top notch builders are tight-lipped about their varnish recipe. They are in good company; even Stradivarius took his varnish recipe to his grave.

If you want a good place to start, why not use some pre-mixed violin varnish from one of the on-line violin luthier's supply stores? They sell it in small cans, and it sure beats mixing batches of "home brew" varnish only to find problems with it months down the road...

[ShaneJ]

Mentioned here before, but here's a good tutorial on French polishing and varnish. (http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html)

[Mandoborg]

There are a couple of things that always make me chuckle. One is, when a Bass fisherman is super secrative about where he catches fish, and the other are the 'it's a secret' luthiers.
When i was being taught how to build these things the varnish was a secret when discussed. When it came time to learn about it, the guy uses off the shelf Behlens Rock Hard thinned 50/50 . Some secret . Now we joke all the time about all the fuss that people put into it when it's really simple. When asked why he says it's a secret, he simply states, " so people make up there own stories about mixing this and mixing that by the light of an alcohol lamp blah, blah,blah."

Sometimes the truth is far less interesting than the theories.

[Hans]

One quart of 10-W-30 and 2 oz of superglue, right Lynn? :grin:

[woodwizard]

One quart of 10-W-30 and 2 oz of superglue, right Lynn? :grin:

Ssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhh! :grin:

[Orrin Star]

In 2000 Frank Ford wrote a very good turn-of-the-century
reflection on the state of instrument repairs that has some
interesting critical thoughts on the issue of luthier secrecy:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/History/LookingBack/lookingback.html

Orrin

[Big Joe]

Our varnish formula is quite a bit more complicated than that and we don't use off the shelf anything. Our French Polish is our own as well. I am not about to share our formulas because it is ours. We actually sell our french polish to others at times. We won't tell them our formula, but we do provide it for them and they really seem to like it. We are not trying to sell it and we don't really want to, and we are not in the business of selling finish products. That would not be very cost productive since we are not really making any profit on it.

Many luthiers keep their formulas secret from public forums but that does not mean we don't sometimes share secrets with those we wish to. Our community is a group of very fine men and women and we seem to all try to help each other as we can. That being said, no, you are not getting our formula :) .

[fishtownmike]

There are a couple of things that always make me chuckle. One is, when a Bass fisherman is super secrative about where he catches fish, and the other are the 'it's a secret' luthiers.
When i was being taught how to build these things the varnish was a secret when discussed. When it came time to learn about it, the guy uses off the shelf Behlens Rock Hard thinned 50/50 . Some secret . Now we joke all the time about all the fuss that people put into it when it's really simple. When asked why he says it's a secret, he simply states, " so people make up there own stories about mixing this and mixing that by the light of an alcohol lamp blah, blah,blah."

Sometimes the truth is far less interesting than the theories.
I work for an outfit that has trademarked/patented the blue color they use on there trucks and logos. It looks to be a standard royal blue. If there is a variation i can't tell. All i know id that they spent a lot of money on this that could have been spent more wisely in the company...Mike

[Charles E.]

I have used varnish from Joe Robeson, He is a very knowledgable guy and loves to talk varnish.

http://www.violinvarnish.com/

For a honey blond varnish I used his Pine resin Sandarac Mastic varnish. It has held up nicely through the years.

[barry k]

What I can tell from this thread and many others is that we ( luthiers, builders...whatever) are willing to share EVERYTHING about building and the process's here-in , but not our formula for varnish. So thats it, its all in the varnish ?

[Mario Proulx]

Our French Polish is our own as well. I am not about to share our formulas because it is ours. We actually sell our french polish to others at times. We won't tell them our formula, but we do provide it for them and they really seem to like it.

Sorry Joe, but French Polish is a process, not a product.

[Hans]

If it's a process, not a product, how can you sell it? :grin:

[Mario Proulx]

That's my point.... You can sell your specific shellac mix FOR French Polishing, but that doesn't make it French Polish; that's the process of applying the mix to the wood..

[Mario Proulx]

Barry, I don't believe at all that it's "all in the varnish", but rather, I think most are mum because fine finishes are as much black art and luck as anything. It seems to change from day to day, wood to wood, surface to surface, and we all have our ways of adapting this and that to make it all work. What may work for you, may not work as well for me, for an incredible amount of reasons. So, if you tell me your entire finish schedule and I go ahead and try it, and fail to get a good result, I can accuse you of lies, misguidance, withholding your "secret" to making it work, or simply shrug it off and think "man, that Barry uses a terrible finish..". So, we give rough guidance, and let anyone who wants to try it, figure out the intricacies themselves.

Plus, I'm very "loose" with my measuring, so to give you my shellac mix recipe for French Polishing, the best I can say is "about 2 inches of flakes in a small jar, top it with methyl alky to about 1/2" over the flakes, let dissolve, add about a tablespoon of fresh walnut oil, and shake often in use". No secrets, but what I can't convey is that as I'm working, some of the alky will evaporate(and it will do so between sessions, and between instruments), so I'm forever tweaking the mix as I work. If it feels slick, I may add more flakes and alky to lower the oil ratio. Etc, etc, etc...

[Charles E.]

Ron Hock sells a 1/2 lb cut shellac ' kit ' available from Highland Hardware,

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/wood-finishes-sealers.aspx?page=5

A book that I have found helpful in understanding varnishes, both spirit and oil, is ' Classic Finishing Techniques ' by Sam Allen. It has a great chapter on the technique of French Polishing plus alot of info about historic oil varnishes.

[Dale Ludewig]

Mario said it about as well as I think it can be said. Many things in woodworking can be quantified but the finishing process is the most difficult to convey because everything about it varies on a day to day basis, on a seemingly endless ocean of possible necessities and choices. So, that being said, "matching" a finish is even more challenging. I dread it even after 35 years. That learning process never ends. Never. It keeps you young! And ages you quickly. Life is grand.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

Back to the original post. If you are going for the honey blonde color, it's not in the varnish. I stained the bare wood with a combination of yellow and brown trans-tint. I'd have to look in my notes to remember exactly with stains I used. After that, I sealed it with shellac, then brushed an alkyd resin oil varnish. Many alkyd resin varnishes are available commercially, and many are suitable for this type finishing. Some can be buffed to a gloss, some need to be French polished to a gloss. Some brush well, some spray well. I'm hesitant to recommend a particular varnish because what works good for me won't necessarily work for someone else. You need to practice on a scrap board and work out your own technique. With all of that being said, the only thing I do the same as far as finishing in the DIY series is the stain and shellac sealer. The rest of my technique is totally different! Good finishing is an evolving process, and I suspect one day I'll abandon what I'm doing now and move on to something I feel is better.

Lynn

[Big Joe]

Mario...I stand corrected. It is a process, not the product itself. We just habitually refer to our mixture as the "french polish" because that is all we use that particular mixture for. So, to be correct, our shellac mixture is our own that we use in the process of French polishing. Whew, now I fell better! :) . Oh...but I'm still not sharing our formula for our shellac mixture.

[Mike Black]

Is the video of the DIY series with Lynn Dudenbostel available online? If so, does anyone have the link? I'd love to see it.

[HoGo]

Back to OP.
I have no idea what varnish Lynn D. uses but several great builders use and recommend comercial oil varnishes like Epiphanes, Ace Spar varnish or Behlens Rockhard etc. Results are similar with each of them difference is mostly in ease of application (Epiphanes seems to be one of the best). Longetivity of the film is not that different on musical instruments that are usually kept in good conditions.
I don't understand the fascination with violin varnishes for mandolins. They are generally formulated to be softer and wear soon to demanded patina. And they take forever to fully cure. Loars were finished with good drying commercial varnish (most likely phenolic resin/linseed oil spar type varnish) which is similar to brands I mentioned above, so if the "Holy Grail" factor is added there's no reason not to use them. One reason to use violin varnish is ease of application, they brush very well as they dry slower.
The top layer can be polished after sanding with a bit of FP or with True-oil.

[Big Joe]

We experimented with some spar varnish while at the big G and I was pretty impressed. It was different tonally from the oil varnish/ french polish used on the MM and DMM, and it was different form the nitro lacquer, but it did dry very quickly and was quite easy to use. It also buffed very nicely. I can't recall the brand offhand, but it was commercially available and only thinned to make it easier to spray. We used it on several products as prototypes, but never got permission for putting it into production. For the ease of use, and the end result it certainly is a viable finish for musical instruments.

That being said, I still like the oil varnish/ french polish better but it is a LOT harder to deal with on so many levels. It certainly takes more time to work and lots more time to cure. Once cured thought it is hard enough and seems quite stable for most...unless they are prone to lots of sweat or use of chemicals like bug sprays, etc. Part of what makes lutherie exciting is that we can all use a similar, and yet different finish and each can be very nice. I am not sure I want to argue that any one is better than the other for everything. I may have my preference for me personally, but that is all it is. Even poly has its place...though I shudder when I say that! :) .

[re simmers]

A french polish, done correctly, is very difficult and rare in furniture. It's not a process you can learn by watching a video. It takes some practice and instruction from an expert. A good furniture builder can identify a good french polish immediately. I would assume it's even more rare in instruments. Can any builders tell me how long it took you to learn to do a quality french polish?

Thanks
Bob

[jefflester]

Is the video of the DIY series with Lynn Dudenbostel available online? If so, does anyone have the link? I'd love to see it.
Don't think so, but there is a very nice photo series.

http://dudenbostel.leanside.com/1.html

[Rick Turner]

Note that Epifanes has a varnish formula that does not need to be sanded between coats if you re-coat within 72 hours.

[Charles E.]

I would assume it's even more rare in instruments. Can any builders tell me how long it took you to learn to do a quality french polish?

Thanks
Bob

French Polishing using Shellac has been used for a couple hundred years and is still used on classical guitars.

[re simmers]

Thanks Charley,
Yes it has. There are many who say they do a french polish, but very few current builders who do it correctly.......on furniture. I've never seen a mandolin that had a french polish, so I don't know about that.

Bob

[Mario Proulx]

I started to learn French Polishing around 1993, and I'm not done learning, though I can get-by. I shudder to think of doing furniture this way.....

[Mike Black]

I use a french polish shellac exclusively on my instruments. I think that it gets better and I learn more on each one. I love the way the instrument sounds under the finish.

Sometimes I think that I should try something else that is faster, since it usually takes a couple of weeks to put on the finish. Then letting it harden another 10 days at lest before stringing it up. But I really like the fact that I can do it without having to have a ventilated spray booth.

As for furniture.... I'm with Mario.

[Geoff B]

I french polish most of my instruments after a stain/shellac sealer/oil varnish body, sometimes I FP the whole thing. I'd say how long it takes to learn is measured in years, not hours. Once you get the basic process you learn little things that can help ease the application, but it is always pretty labor intensive. I enjoy it and often look forward to a good FP session. I've been doing it for 6 years now and still learn new ways to make it more efficient time-wise.

Mario, when you mix the oil in with the shellac, does that bypass putting oil on the pad as you go? I've always done body sessions without oil until it gets sticky, then applying a drop on the pad as needed to help keep it sliding... I may have to try that...

[Mike Bromley]

Lynn

There is something so perfectly perfect as the horse's mouth.:))

[re simmers]

I'm in the process of learning to french polish furniture from a furniture/builder/cabinet maker/restorer who recently retired after 40+ years. He told me, "you will start to notice your french polish skills become adequate after about 500 pieces of furniture." He was exaggerating, but trying make a point. I can look at his furniture and immediately recognize the richness of a quality french polish.

I have not been exposed to some of the high quality mandolins. What models are known for a french polish?

Thanks
Bob

[peter.coombe]

"I have not been exposed to some of the high quality mandolins. What models are known for a french polish?"

Gilchrist.

[Big Joe]

The Gibson MM and DMM, Stanley mandolins, and Gilchrist come to mind immediately. I know there are some others as well.

[Andy Morton]

When you refer Gibson MM and DMM, Stanley, and Gilchrist--do you mean they use the shellac/alcohol based french polish....I know french polish by many is referred to as a "method" and not specific to finishing materials. However, the spiriting off part of the french polishing technique seems to be unique to the use of alcohol as a solvent. Can you spirit off a oil based varnish finish--say spar varnish?? I always thought that the instruments mentioned were finished with varnish (by hand) but I could be mistaken.

Andy Morton
Madison, Wi

[Mario Proulx]

Since I muddied the waters...

"French Polish" is a method of applying a filled pore, glossy and level finish with shellac. We can pad-on a oil varnish, but it's not french polished. There's a lot more to it than getting the shellac onto the surface. Google for the "Milburn" french polish tutorial. I may have the spelling incorrect, but Google will get you there.

Purists call it cheating, sometimes blasphemy, but today, we have fine abrasives and excellent polishing compounds, and there's nothing wrong with heading to the buffer after you're 80% done "spiriting off". I've been known to pull the oils off with naphtha instead of alcohol, then sand it level and buff, which works out to be a modernized version of "spiriting off", where we pull the oils off with alcohol and continue with a very nearly dry pad to bring the surface to its final gloss.

[Geoff B]

I'm not aware than anyone does/can french polish except with alcohol as a solvent. It would not be possible to french polish an "oil varnish" because "oil varnishes" cure by a chemical process (and that term alone can lead to tons of discussion). Shellac (maybe a better term would be "spirit varnish" because people use other additives to it like sandarac and others) sets by evaporation of the alcohol, leaving the finish film behind. The alcohol evaporates quickly and so many small passes can be combined rapidly to build up a finish in hundreds of "layers" that melt into each other with alcohol as a solvent. The last step of spiriting off is using a higher concentration of alcohol to level the surface and achieve the mirror effect. You can't do that, from my understanding, with finishes with other solvents or that do not evaporate in the way that alcohol does in a spirit varnish.

[re simmers]

This is basically it, as I know it, for french polish on furniture. I do not pretend to be an expert. I do know there are many facsimiles of this "french polish." I do not know if it's the same for mandolins.

Apply a very thin shellac finish with a rag, and using boiled linseed oil as a lube. You cut 4lb shellac about 4 to 1 alcohol to shellac. Put that in a glass bottle that has a plastic top. Drill a tiny hole in the top. Then make a cotton rag and cheesecloth "ball". It's actually an elongated ball about 1" x 2" folded and rolled into a tight mass. The shellac solution goes in from the top and a drop of linseed oil goes on the application surface. Apply with a circular motion squeezing a small amount of shellac out as you go.
This should bring out a soft, rich glow.
Everything has an impact: the type, age & humidity of the wood. The humidity & temperature of the shop. There is a certain "touch" to applying it that is hard to put in writing.

Bob

[Mario Proulx]

The cut, type of oil, type of shellac, and even type of alcohol, varies from finisher to finisher. You've also got pumice and/or rottenstone in the process if you're after a pore-fill, also.

[Big Joe]

The mandolin I mentioned do use an oil varnish and then use a shellac spirit finish on top of the oil varnish, and yes, it is french polished on. The oil varnish must be cured to a certain level before the french polishing seems to work best. At the big G we used a UV booth to help cure the varnish before the french polishing was done. I believe that is the way Gilchrist's have been done for some time. French polish is not only an effective way to work on oil varnish, it is very good for doing repairs on many kinds of finish. It is especially helpful for working on very old finishes as well.

We have done complete finishes with french polishing, and it has a patina all its own but it is a rather slow process to build up on an instrument as large as a guitar. Part of what makes it nice when used on top of an oil varnish is that it seems to make the surface of the oil varnished finish harder when all is dried and cured. Charley Derrington always maintained that was how the Loars were finished as well. I am not one to doubt anything he claimed about the Loars. That was his personal quest...to understand every nuance of the Loars, and especially the finish he used. He spent many years just on the finish alone to ensure he got it right. When he was convinced he finally had the "magic" formula, I was and am not about to doubt his word. The finish we used on the MM's was in his estimation the exact finish used by Loar.

[peter.coombe]

I visited Steve Gilchrist around 10 years ago, and unless he has drastically changed his finish technique since then, it is a complete french polish finish. He described his finish technique, and it was very much a typical traditional french polish technique. I could see the french polish pad (rubber), a bottle of varnish, and some of the ingredients. A batch of around 10 mandolins were lined up drying, freshly finished. Quite a sight that made me drool. No sign of any oil varnish. He was tight lipped about the actual varnish formula, but I believe it is mostly seed lac with some additives. So as far as I am aware there is no oil varnish on Gilchrist instruments. Whatever the varnish is, Gilchrist probably has the finest french polished finish in the business.

[Andy Morton]

Well--I am glad I asked the question....great thread on this. I have noticed in earlier threads that "french polish" is sometimes used when referring to "padding on" a finish.

It always confused me when builders spoke of applying a french polish (shellac/alcohol) over an oil based varnish. Now, I understand that they build up a base with varnish and then apply a french polish top coat---and you don't have to go through the building up process with a straight french polish. You would still have issues with the fragility of the french polish with this technique---which to me is not that big of a deal since the finish is so beautiful and forgiving (you can easily correct mistakes).

I used the Milborn technique and watched several youtube videos on the technique...found it to be very useful.

To me it is the best finish for the hobby mandolin builder because it so safe and as I said above--easy to correct mistakes...

Thanks for the clarifications on this gang!!

Andy Morton
Madison, WI

[Rick Turner]

Some classical guitar makers are experimenting with French polishing over an epoxy sealer. The epoxy does bring out amazing chatoyance in wood, even in closed pore woods like maple. In this case, the epoxy replaces varnish. Interesting...