Grisman's Nine Pound Hammer solo

[Rex Hart]

I and some band mates were traveling to a gig and were listening to Tony Rice's Manzanita album, in particular Nine Pound Hammer when someone pointed out Grisman's mandolin break on the song......what's up with that? It sounds like something I would do. Am I missing something?

As a disclaimer, I love Grisman's playing........not so much that break though.

[jazzman13]

Actually, I was listening to that recently and thought exactly the same thing!

Seems strange to have him on one track in the whole album and play a pretty average solo (imho)...

I have a jazz background and to my ears, he's not really cutting the changes and not really playing "out" properly.

It's an odd one for sure!

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Always thought that break seemed to be more focused on syncopation and phrasing rather than note choice. Even though there's not much acknowledgment of the four chord, it has good feel to it.

CHeers
MRT

[3step]

My favorite quality in a mandolin player is the ability to keep things simple when needed and always play for the song first and foremost. I like DG's solo on this. It kind of stays close to the ground so to speak in keeping with the lyrics. "How can I go, when the wheels won't roll."

[jazzman13]

Hmmm... I'll have to give it another listen and pay more attention to the rhythmic aspects...

[Fretbear]

I have always found that solo to stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. DG played on more than just that one cut on "Manzanita", also the instrumentals like Blackberry Blossom, Stony Point, etc.
I consider "Manzanita" to be one of the finest acoustic music projects ever recorded. Beyond it's mind-bending musicality and stone cold vocals, it is also ground-breaking, as Tony Rice masterfully "suggested" that bluegrass could be played without a banjo. He not only succeeded in that, he also recorded one of the best acoustic string albums of all time. Was it perfect? Almost. I understand why TR chose DG for those aforementioned instrumentals, to bring in a little flavor of the Dawg music he had recently been busy creating. Choosing DG for "Nine Pound Hammer" was a mistake. It shouldn't have been, it's only "Nine Pound Hammer", but unlike Sam's and Ricky's sterling "We're both from Kentucky" bluegrass mandolin offerings his solo is more like "listen to how clever and avant-guard I am, syncopating the rhythm" than "what does this number really require from me?" Always a mistake. They were also smoking alot of weed down at Arch studios those days, so who knows.

[Scotti Adams]

One has to remember the times when that Lp was cut. Dawg Music was in its infantsy while at the same time coming on strong...Tony was a student of that school at the time on the verge of stepping out with his Space Grass stamp on the music. It was Grismans way of putting his paw on that project allowing T to be reminded of where that New Acoustic sound came from..perhaps. Maybe SternArt could chime in and enlighten us. He was there...how cool is that?

[AlanN]

Yep.

We are barking up an old tree that has been visted many times here (true to for(u)m). To call it a 'mistake' to have Dawg play that solo on that tune is ridiculous. Don't you think Tony Rice (or the producer) would have pulled it if it didn't pass muster? These guys were pros, even back then, who knew the ins and outs of recording, re-takes, etc.

[Scotti Adams]

Yes sireee. Art has some really neat stories about that session if I remember correctly.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

An old thread on the break has some info from SternART. And some more opinions on the break, some of which haven't changed in 4 years. ;)

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?35859

Cheers
MRT

[Rex Hart]

I guess the point boils down to what a previous poster said...the break just seems out of place when compared to the rest of the recording and maybe even more glaring, it seems out of place on that particular song. I love Newgrass and appreciate Dawg music but maybe it is over my head. I thought there were some muffed notes on the break,maybe not. Maybe it sounded good through the smoky haze!

[Scotti Adams]

I guess the point boils down to what a previous poster said...the break just seems out of place when compared to the rest of the recording and maybe even more glaring, it seems out of place on that particular song. I love Newgrass and appreciate Dawg music but maybe it is over my head. I thought there were some muffed notes on the break,maybe not. Maybe it sounded good through the smoky haze!

Compare it to about every other solo Dawg did back then...it is what it is. Its Dawg. Im sure T left the break out of pure respect.

[AlanN]

Goodness, that search engine is a pahrful thang. And can be a bit embarassing to have one's current stance held up to what was said before. Fortunately, I said today what I said yesterday.

[Scotti Adams]

Yea..and I feel more like I do now than what I felt awhile ago

[SternART]

Interesting rereading that old thread. Nothing new to add. They might have run 4 or 5 versions of a tune in a row, without anyone playing the same exact solos or licks. I remember bringing cassettes home after a long night & listening the next day, and to my ear, one take was better than the next. They really should put out a Delux Edition, with the out-takes. Wonder if Tony kept all those.......maybe not......the tape was expensive & it was common to record over the 8 tracks to save money, back in the day. And those 'were' the good ol' days. These fellas have all gone on to have great careers, but back then they were just starting out. Superpickers then...... and better now!

[AlanN]

Listened to Manzanita once again on the run yesterday, paying particular attention to the solo in question. Once again, I heard nothing offending. He stays on the low notes (don't we as mando pickers cherish those low frequencies?) and he sounds like David Grisman. What more could you want, America?

The title track still makes me wilt. Sam is just purr-fect on it, particularly on the high break.

[Scotti Adams]

Sounds to me Tony wrote Manzanita with Sam in mind. When ever I listen to that recording it still sounds as fresh as the first time I heard it. Sams KO on You Should Have Learned is A1 top shelf. Oh..and thanks Art.

[Rex Hart]

Well...after reading the post from back in 2007, I saw belatedly that this had already been discussed so sorry for bringing up old news. However, I did enjoy reading all the comments from that old thread and finding out that Stern was actually at those sessions. In my mind, those sessions were akin in the bluegrass world to the Sgt. Pepper sessions in the rock-n-roll world. Again, thanks for enlightening me, but I still don't care for the break ( I didn't care for guitar break on Lennon's Good Morning Good Morning either) :)

I say we should start a petition to have Tony look into releasing the out takes of those sessions if they are available. Tony! Tony! Tony!. On a side note, I hope Tony is feeling better. I am curious as to the circumstances that caused Stern to be there. C'mon Stern...give us the dish! (unless that has already been discussed on a prior thread also.)

[greg_tsam]

I thought it was great but I love alternative techniques and ideas as well as the tried and true versions. I like it all. But how in the heck can some of you dare say that David Grisman was lost on his break? hahaha.. My God, man. Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it's wrong. To each his own just don't poo poo on my doorstep and call it's chocolate surprise.

[Scotti Adams]

From what I undertand Art owned a art studio that Darol Anger and Mike Marshal would either frequent or actually lived there. Art was welcomed into the inner circle of the Super Pickers...became friends with them etc.

[SternART]

Close Scotti.......I was Grisman's archivist back in that era, starting with the earliest DGQ gigs. I recorded the shows, either from the board, or with a separate set of mics from beside the stage, and had "the vault" in my music room, all the tapes from Grisman's career, including his collection of live BG that he had collected and recorded. I was fortunate to have been friends with these guys & was welcome to hang in the studio, starting with the first DGQ album, I tried to make myself useful helping Billy Wolf, or Bob Shumaker adjust mics, or running errands, whatever I could do to help......but I was there, often until the wee hours, or going home as the sun rose. They worked really hard, all feeling like what they were creating was important. And it was......the birth of Dawg Music & New Acoustic Music. David had worked up some of his tunes with previous bands, but this band was dedicated to his vision. They constantly rearranged the tunes, and were all improving as musicians, leaning from each other. I also have great memories of backstage at gigs, they would form a semi circle & play......sometimes with me in the center listening, and run down some tunes.......now that is the ultimate stereo! It was fun just listening to Tony go through his warm up routine, or to hear duets with just Grisman & Rice. "The Gasoline Bros." is what we called them.

Todd Phillips lived close by & rented the back of my art studio, to build & repair mandolins. Mike Marshall, Darol Anger, Bob Alekno, and Dix Bruce lived close by & there was a lot of great pickin' going on, including musicians traveling through the Bay Area on tour, Sam, Bela, Jerry.......this was basically in my home, as I lived in the studio.

I just told this story to someone the other day when we went for a drive in my classic car, a 1964 DS Citroen convertible, that I've had for 35 years now. Back in the day it was my daily driver, and I used to drive Todd & Darol to the DGQ gigs, the Revox half track in the trunk.......we'd be headed over the Bay Bridge from Oakland to SF....headed to the Great American Music Hall.....with the top down & those guys would be rehearsing in the car. Todd played 2nd mando, at the time....this was early DGQ, before he switched to bass, when Gator joined the band....so Todd was riding shotgun playing mando with Darol in the back seat fiddling away. Now, just the unusual car attracts a lot of attention, but with those guys playing & our long hair blowing in the wind, we must have been quite a sight! Eventually they started playing more gigs out of town & my career took off, so I couldn't keep up with the archivist gig......but I consider them all among my best friends, like brothers, to this day. We shared a formative time in all our lives, when creativity was in the air!

[Scotti Adams]

Now..if thats not cool...you aint vertical. Thanks so much Art

[Rex Hart]

Way cool! Thanks, Art for sharing with us, what a great time to be livin'.