Mando Upgrade

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

OK I admit it I'm in the market for a new or new to me mando. I've been savin nickels an dimes an expense claims an probably have 2/3rds of what I think I need. My MIC Kentucky 250 is headed for my fiddle playing daughter who is interested in adding mando to her repertoire. Perfect opportunity for me to experience some MAS satisfaction.

I'm looking in the $750 to $1200 range and would prefer to keep it under a grand. I do not suffer scroll envy, want f holes and am learning to play a variety of music. The obvious choices are Riegel A natural (best price $775), Breedlove KF (best price $900), Gibson A-9 (best price $900, Weber Absaroka (best price $1100), perhaps a Sucek (only price $1100), perhaps a Morris (price unknown), perhaps a...

Quite frankly being a native Montanan and loving hiking in the Beartooth Absaroka Primitive area I lean heavily in the direction of a Weber - some reason huh. I need some kind of reason having never seen or played one! However I have not yet found a tone bar braced Absaroka on the used market (it is a free upgrade) every one I've found is x braced. My question is - does it matter? I've read in several posts that x braced can be overdriven which I take to mean played too hard and the tone muddied. Apparently this is not true of tone bar braced mandos - or is it?

Concerning the Gibson A-9. I've read mixed reviews of the tone delivered. I wonder if the issue is whether or not the instrument has had adequate playing time. My understanding is that tone bar mandos just get better. As such an initially unimpressive tone bar mando may in time deliver really good tone - True? I know my Kentucky sounds bad if it isn't played for a while.

As far as the others are concerned - the Riegel is short scale (proper term?) that is the cross brace is at the 12th fret. I definitely prefer the 14th or 15th based on experience with an old Martin my instructor has. The Breedlove (I've tested one in a local store) sounds great but I wish it wasn't the plain white or a sunburst - Poor excuse I know. The Sucek or Morris - no experience - don't know what to think.

As an aside how feasible is it to have an instrument refinished? That is suppose you want the coloring redone or changed or fret board markers added but not binding or some such that would require some obviously serious reworking. Is this economically feasible or just too expensive to justify? Does it or could it mess up the instrument (assume the luthier is competent)? In other words is the value added ever worth it?

TIA for any responses to the three general questions I'm interested in - 1) tone bars versus x braced 2) Gibson A-9 tone improvement over time and 3) refinishing mandos.

Take Care! -Ed-

[BenE]

1) I think that X bracing sound a bit woodier out of the box but the tone bars really come into their own over time....Seems most high end mandos are tone bar braced. Got to break em in a bit...
2) The A9 should open up over time and sound better....Some will tell you that if the mandolin doesn't have the sound you want out of the box to pass on it....Some will tell you it will get better and be patient and just play it....I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle...But most mandolins will sound better after having some playing time on them.
3)Refinishing....I guess mandohack could tell you all about this...He had a Rigel refinished in Blue...looks great! But, I'm sure he paid a hefty price...I guess I would look at it like a car....Is the '68 mustang worth fixing up and repainting? Probably...What about a '73 Pinto....Maybe not...but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I had a Rigel for a while and really liked that mandolin...I sold it to Stanley here on the board and he seems to like it as well. I think the Rigels are hard to beat for the money...I would look for a used A+ deluxe and spend a little extra over the A natural...I think it would be money well spent...Although all the mandolins on your list would make a fine instrument...If you find one that speaks to you...I'd buy that one and be less concerned with the name on the headstock....

[jlb]

Another option to think about is if you live in proximity to an up-and-coming luthier that builds A-styles, visit him/her, and see if they have any examples to let you play.

It is not uncommon to find a new luthier who would build you a nice a-style with a varnish finish at or slightly above the high end of your price range.

[John Flynn]

As far as the others are concerned - the Riegel is short scale (proper term?) that is the cross brace is at the 12th fret.
I am a Rigel owner and I am pretty sure you are mistaken there. I have played short scale and short neck (not the same thing, BTW) instruments before, so I know what you are referring to. The Rigel is a full 14" scale with a full-length neck. It may appear differently because the Rigel body is constructed in completely different way than a Gibson-style mandolin. It does not really have a cross-piece and the body extends several inches further past the sound chamber than on a Gibson-type. Also, you will notice that the bridge is forward of the widest part of the body, whereas with a "short neck" like a Gibson A-4, it will be aft of the widest part of the body. In terms of playability, the Rigel is the equivalent of at Gibson-style 14-15 frets-to-the-body instrument.

[jamman]

I think he meant how Rigel's are joined at the 12th fret. #Still a fabulous neck though!

Happy A+ owner

edit: reread your post Johnny, you're on top of it!

[EasyEd]

Hey Thanks All for the replies!

Johnny an Jamman,

I know Rigels are good mandos. Whatever mando I get I will likely keep for some time and want to be able to play up the neck. I was not sure if the way the Rigel was joined allows this. Second I have long arms an actually like longer necks - not as cramped. As I indicated my instructor has a Martin oval hole that just seems too tight and the distance between frets is shorter than on my Kentucky. I freely confess to not understanding exactly what mando scale means. As to other fretboard issues - wider is likely better and radiusing I suspect (but don't know) doesn't matter - my fingers are long enough.

As to the refinishing. I'm sure some of you have guessed what I'm thinking. Buy a plain Jane like an A-9 or an ugly sunburst (sorry my tastes run to blacktops, blues and that green Weber in the Post a Pic section is to die for) and then if I decide I want to - save nickels an dimes again an have it refinished. Just wondering if it's worthwhile.

Ben - I used to have a 66 Mustang. To this very day I regret selling that car.

Thanks All and keep the opinions coming! -Ed-

[Greenmando]

I have not lost money reselling a mandolin yet. Buy one that sounds good to you and play the hell out of it. You can always sell it and buy a different one.
If you want a mandolin with a different finish you can usually order it that way from most builders. Gibson, Rigel, Weber all have a custom shop. I think it would be overall cheaper to buy a custom finished mando than to have one refinished. A raw, in the white mando, only one step away from a different finish.

Give Charlie D. or Big Joe a call at gibson and ask, or a email. Both are very quick to respond to questions.
Paula at Weber is great to talk to also.

[PCypert]

Hey,
Having just gone through this decision myself I thought I'd share what I went through. I was in the same price range as you and looked and looked. Ended up finding a sweet deal on a Rigel A+ Standard. Better than the Natural and a little more econonmic than the Delux. It's great. If you can find one of these, since they're not made anymore, get one. A guy blessed me by selling his for 900! The main thing is to be patient, know what you're after, and keep looking. Don't be afraid to ask people to go lower. Another side note. I've never played an Absoraka that blew me away. All that I've played have been pretty boring. The A9 didn't sound good in my hands, but had the shop owner play it (can't remember his name, but a famous fiddle player who has a shop in Oklahoma) and it sounded terrific. He even had Yellowstones and Big Sky's that sounded like crap next to the A and F9's. I'd say keep looking. Best of luck to you.
Paul

Get a Rigel! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Tom C]

Maybe the Rigels have large fret wire compared to the others. To me, the larger fret
wire does make the scale seem slightly shorter.

[neal]

Check this one out, (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-3904.htm) it's certainly in your range.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Again Thank You all for the replies. Neal that Quartz OF does look good. I'll watch for an opportunity to play a Rigel (how do ya spell it?). I really do appreciate the direction toward possible "good buys" from everybody!

That being said I must confess I'm a little disappointed. Maybe I'm posting in the wrong place but I asked - I thought - 3 fairly straightforward questions and a couple people addressed them directly. BenE said that x bracing sounds woodier out of the box but that tone bars should open up over time. Anybody else have an opinion or is this basically right? If so tone bars are at least equal to an probably better than x bracing? If this is the case why does Weber make the Absaroka with x bracing while tone bars are a free option? Ben also expressed the opinion that Gibson A-9s should open up over time. Do you Gibson guys agree?? He also said that some people say if it don't sound right out of the box - pass it on. Is this good advice?

Paul (PCypert) said something that simply jumped out at me an I quote "I've never played an Absoraka that blew me away. All that I've played have been pretty boring. The A9 didn't sound good in my hands, but had the shop owner play it (can't remember his name, but a famous fiddle player who has a shop in Oklahoma) and it sounded terrific. He even had Yellowstones and Big Sky's that sounded like crap next to the A and F9's.". What I got from this is - to what extent does playing style matter versus which side of the mando your sittin on - the playing side or the listening side? Is it possible that some of the Mando's Paul thought were mundane were actually great if he were sitting out in front? And what does this mean in terms of mando selection? I realize that I want my mando to sound good to me but if my mando sounds great to an audience while sounding kinda plain to me - isn't that way better than the opposite?

An the refinishing question - builders how do you see this issue?

I'm not trying to be overly critical. I know the expertise is here. Speak Up!

Take Care! -Ed-

Its probably not accurate to generalize about X bracing and tone bars. Correct me if i'm all wet but Gilcrest mandolins are X braced aren't they as well as some great Paul Duff mandolins and those two builders seem to have done ok? Someone already mentioned this but....doesn't it always come down to finding the one instrument that "speaks to you" and thats the one to get.
.....My .02 on the opening up question is that good mandos usually sound good right off the bat And most all mandolins improve over time. However...i wouldn't purchase a new instrument that sounds a bit flat expecting it to burst open at some point...and become much much better. Some amazing builders up in Canadian.....

[doanepoole]

To echo Spare Change,a good intrument will sound good right out of the box, and will sound a bit better as time goes on. #A mediocre instrument will at best open up to sound just a bit better than mediocre.

If a salesman or whoever is telling you that his poor-sounding intrument will open up and become a great one in time, he is trying to sell you a pile of BS.

[John Rosett]

easyed-
what part of montana do you live in? there are pretty good selections of mandos to try in bozeman and in missoula, but there's a whole lot of montana that's not near either one.
good luck! john

[PCypert]

Hey,
Should clarify. I did hear the Weber's played by the guy and as I was playing them. They didn't sound all that great with me playing them (non traditional, folk, celtic, jazz) or with the shop owner (very traditional Monroe player). It may be the handful of Weber's I've played because I have played Flatirons made by Bruce Weber that I loved so go figure. Just trying to pass along the little bit of info I have.

Also, kind of like the tone bar versus X bracing. The listening question is interesting, but kind of the same thing. I love for my mando to have a good projected sound, but play a lot by myself and love the hear the sweet tone as well. Don't think there would be a great instrument that wasn't a pleasure to listen to on both sides. But it is an interesting question. I have heard on this site of a guy who heard a laminate Martin played by the shop worker that sounded about the same sitting across from somebody as a 28 or 35 or something, but sounded horrible to the player.

I'll shut up now as I have nothing more substantial to add. Thanks,
Paul