The Mini Mic/Pickup Pandora Box...

[TJe153]

Let me preface this by stating that I have reviewed the discussions available on the forum, and although quite helpful, I still have questions. Additionally, if you feel the urge to comment that this discussion has been beaten to death, please resist that urge. That would not be productive...

I am looking for a personalized discussion to find answers to my mini microphone questions, let me explain my situation. I am trying to amplify my mando for a few shows, which may turn into re-occurring gigs. I have a Weber special edition with the satin finish. While I have gigged before, I am not a fan of standing still in front of a dedicated mando mic, I enjoy moving around. Here is a little background, and my knowledge of this discussion.

Permanent Internal Pickup systems : Weber does not use a traditional end-pin, and this would require additional milling/drilling because of this. I'm not interested in drilling holes in my mando. Also looked at the Tapastring option, this would also require drilling, based on the discussion with my local luthier. Apparently the K&K is a great internal pickup, but not part of this discussion.

External Non-Permanent systems will probably do some finish damage to my mando over time (Shertler, Baggs Radius, etc.) and people have complaints about the carpenter jack system falling off. Although this may be an option, not my first choice. Would I be disappointed if the putty/sticky/substance might leave a film or do damage to my mando's finish? Maybe, but if its' the best viable option, so be it. Battle scars are a sign of a players mandolin, especially since people are buying mandos that are new and have distressed finishes...

So I have conducted some research about the mini-mic option, and I have looked at the Audio Technica website, and the K&K website to get information about their options. But I still have questions, as I am kinda new to this live audio stuff.

So if I were to use a mini-mic, would the cable end in a mini XLR? And could this be easily converted into a full size XLR? I know the silver bullet comes with an optional 1/4" output, which would be easy to connect to any variety of preamps or pa systems. Any positive to using a mic with an xlr output? Or am I way off base...

Also, the placement/attachment of the mic on the mando has been a lengthy conversation on this forum. Some use the included universal clip to mount the mic to a toneguard (which I don't use....currently, but may be an option) and others discuss the mounts that are used for violin (a wide clamp directly to body) or even the use of a modded carpenter jack type attachment. I do have a cumberland armrest that I could use as a microphone mount point, since I find it to be too small for armrest use. How about mounting the mic to a talipiece? Or even using the small clips to attach directly to the treble side f-hole? Would the violin mount work for mandos (covers the strings between the bridge and the tailpiece)?

And finally, I was hoping I would be able to use something like a Fishman Loudbox Mini as a preamp (I know thats odd...but still) and then send the signal via the XLR out to the pa board. Any thoughts on this? Would I need a dedicated preamp? Or would this all depend on the type of mini mic I would use. And what about feedback on these mics? Would 200$ be better spent on a nice preamp and not an amp/monitor.

One thing I am sure of, bluegrass groups who practice the one mic old timey huddle are awesome. You just need to watch out for the fiddle bow poking you in the eyes :)

I appreciate any advice in advance, and thank you for reading my lengthy post. This forum is not only a resource for experienced players, but the novice as well. Worth its weight in kilobytes :) Thanks gang and Keep on pickin'

P.S. - Lets put the price point on this project under $400. This may limit my options.

[Charlieshafer]

Most mini-mics will have a 1/4 inch output, or at least some form of output that can convert directly into the xlr in on a mixing board. You will not need a preamp if your mixer has phantom power. If your mixer does not have phantom power, there are less-expensive ways to give the mini-condensers the current they need, so don't worry about that. Mic placement is totally up to the player. Recommendations are nice, but ultimately you'll need to play around to get the sound you want. Ditto goes for mounting placement; no one here will be much help until you know where you want the business end of the mic pointing. I wouldn't fear damaging the finish; carefully-attached mounting hardware can leave no trace.

Feedback is less likely to happen than with a pickup, but still, you need to watch where you point that thing. Very easy to avoid with just a little experience. How to spend $200? It all depends on your performance situation. Will there be a good mixing board at the gigs, with phantom power? If so, don't even bother with a pre-amp, just get the best mic you can afford. If the sound is in your hands, and you have no mixer with phantom power, then a decent pre-amp is in order. Do you need a personal stage monitor as well as a pre-amp? Then there are a ton of really nice amp/pre-amp/speaker combinations, from AER to Schertler, etc, but they're all going to be way more than $200.

Most flexibility to keep it under $400; the A-T mic is nice, and have a small pre-amp to have in case the board or p.a. system doesn't have phantom power. If you can find a Crown GLM, they were great, but appear to not be around anymore. DPA's are superb, but over your price point.

Gotta run off to work, I'll try to get some more specifics later..

[TJe153]

Thank you for the detailed response: You bring up a good point about mounting and actual microphone placement.

I assume I would want the mic pointed (or placed) near/towards/ or in the treble side f-hole, and adjust levels accordingly. This may be standard operating procedure, but will obviously be a trial and error project. I am also quite confident that the mixer my friends are using has phantom power, so we can eliminate the need for a power source from the equation. Although I would enjoy having some-sort of monitoring, this may not be a good idea with a mini mic option. I was just throwing that out there as I have heard of others using the loudbox mini as a preamp/monitor before sending signal to a PA.

Thanks again for the response. I appreciate it.

[foldedpath]

Most mini-mics will have a 1/4 inch output, or at least some form of output that can convert directly into the xlr in on a mixing board.

FYI, mini condensers like the Audio Technica Pro 35 and ATM350, DPA 4099, Countryman ISOMAX, etc. have cords that usually terminate in connectors designed to interface with a wireless body pack. It's a mini XLR for Audio Technica, and a "micro dot" for the DPA. These mics come with an XLR barrel adapter for use with standard mic cables, if you're not running wireless. For the Countryman mics, I think you have to specify whether you want a wireless-compatible plug or the XLR barrel adapter (they're hardwired).

The XLR adapter for all these mics steps 48 volt phantom power down to the lower voltage, "bias" power the mics actually run on. That's the power they would normally get from a wireless body pack transmitter.

So if you're *not* using wireless, you can basically ignore all that, and think of these mics as just standard XLR connector mics that need phantom power. You can't use a regular tip-sleeve 1/4" connector with these mics because it won't provide power.

The K&K Silver Bullet is an exception because it has its own preamp and power supply, and does terminate in a 1/4" TS connector. That makes it a little easier to use with things like volume pedals and pedal tuners, but there are ways to do that with the phantom-powered mics too, like running off an amp's FX loop or a mixer's channel insert jack.

For what it's worth... I like the way the ATM350 and DPA 4099 can easily convert back and forth between wired XLR cable or wireless operation. I run my mandolin on a wireless rig for about half our gigs, mainly so I can hear the sound from out in the room during sound check. We use DPA 4099's on the group's mandolin, acoustic guitar, and fiddle, and an ATM350 on Dobro (because I couldn't afford yet another 4099!). We may add flute at some point in the future, and that will probably be a Countryman ISOMAX 2, just because it's so tiny and inconspicuous.

You may find some cheap electret lavalier mics that don't require bias or phantom power and terminate directly in a 1/4" TS plug, but these are not the kind of high-quality mics you'd want for instrument amplification. They're designed more for low cost pickup of speakers at events, not musical amplification.


And finally, I was hoping I would be able to use something like a Fishman Loudbox Mini as a preamp (I know thats odd...but still) and then send the signal via the XLR out to the pa board. Any thoughts on this?

That particular amp is not a good choice for this. The "mic" section lacks phantom power; it's designed for adding a dynamic-type mic for vocals, alongside an instrument pickup plugged into the other channel. If you wan to go this route, look for an acoustic amp with a mic channel that provides phantom power, and with a good EQ section.

On the other hand, if your PA system has good monitors, you shouldn't need an amp as a preamp or local monitor. Just run the mic straight to your PA's mixer, and make sure you can hear what you need to hear in the PA's monitoring system. Save the money you'd spend on a preamp or acoustic amp, and put it in a high quality mini condenser mic.

Your $400 budget won't quite stretch to a DPA 4099 ($600 USD last time I checked), which I think is the best-sounding mic in this class, with the best mounting system. But you could get the Audio Technica Pro 35 ($170) or ATM350 ($280) and have money left over.

[mandroid]

AKG used a Mini XLR on their condenser mini mics and the contact mic,
presumably, to make them harder to inadvertantly power them with a full 48V,
rather than with one of their regulated power supplies.

AKG has a blender, to mix both a mini mic and the contact pickup. battery powered.
could also run a lavaliere vocal and an instrument mic/pickup.

FWIW,
I have never seen any finish damage on my mandolins from sticking
Schertler Dyn M on and removing it.
varnished 22 A4 or lacquered F5...

[Charlieshafer]

Folded's right about all the different type of connectors, but I was assuming (in a bit of a rush this morning) that due to budget, there would be no room for a wireless system. That said, the affordable mics listed above all work well and will terminate in something that's easily converted to XLR. The little condensers need phantom power, as everyone has stated, and if going straight into a PA, some, but not all, will need a little extra gain. My favorite problem-solver in the tool box is this Presonus Bluetube. (http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=11) It supplies phantom power, if needed, and a range of gain options which gets pretty much any mic up to a level that's very workable, and sounds very nice.
Street price is around $230 Add an AT pro 35 or ATM 350 (you can find them for about $170 at Amazon) and you're where you want to be with a very versatile little system where you don't need to worry about what kind of board or p.a. you're plugging into.

[Toni Schula]

I am also a big fan of the DPA 4099. mandolin and fiddle for the first time sound like mandolin and fiddle through the monitors.
But I then realised, that it's hard for me to cotrol my volume. Chop is much louder than melody. You can't move away from the clip on mic.
So if you have problems like me controlling the dynamics with the right hand, you will need a volume pedal and a preamp providing the effect loop.
This way I spent much more than my initial budget.
If you have any chance trying the gear on stage before buying, do it.

[TJe153]

FWIW,
I have never seen any finish damage on my mandolins from sticking
Schertler Dyn M on and removing it.
varnished 22 A4 or lacquered F5...

Thank you for the advice, as I said before, this will be option number 2. And apparently there is a Schertler in the marketplace for $400.....may be an option.

I have discovered that a AT 35 is available at a nearby store so maybe this weekend I can see how these products will sound. I have also not counted out the toneguard mount setup (or even using my cumberland armrest as a mount) but in terms of mic placement, this is something you need to learn through trial and error.

Also - If I purchase a mini mic setup, how concerned should I be with feedback? I don't plan on jumping up and down in front of the PA speakers....but I know this is a concern when you decide to take the mini mic route.

Thanks again for all the advice - I do appreciate it. :)

[mandroid]

Also - If I purchase a mini mic setup, how concerned should I be with feedback?

more sensitive the mic, the more likely it is to hear the monitor,
or even bounce back from the mains coming off the back wall.

I think stage craft is about how you figure out how to keep the gear and room,
from interfering with itself, by how you place everything in relation to each other .
and that takes experience and sound checks.

Basics... can you cope with an SM57 on a stand.

good to have that as a fall back when the other stuff
just won't work, where you set up. :whistling:

[foldedpath]

I am also a big fan of the DPA 4099. mandolin and fiddle for the first time sound like mandolin and fiddle through the monitors.
But I then realised, that it's hard for me to cotrol my volume. Chop is much louder than melody. You can't move away from the clip on mic.
So if you have problems like me controlling the dynamics with the right hand, you will need a volume pedal and a preamp providing the effect loop.
This way I spent much more than my initial budget.
If you have any chance trying the gear on stage before buying, do it.

One solution, especially for a Bluegrass band where everyone is standing up anyway, is to have a "soloist" mic on a stand, so you can play rhythm backup with the clip-on mic, and move up to that other mic for a little boost on solos. That's also a nice cue for the audience about who is taking a solo break.

A local volume or boost pedal can work too. Just add a good battery-powered mic preamp next to your volume pedal, like a Sound Devices MP-1 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292990-REG/Sound_Devices_MP_1_MP_1_Single_Channel.html) or DPA's own little battery-powered preamp.

In the past, I've also used a TC Electronics G-Natural pedal which includes a mic preamp with phantom power, tuner, and boost switch. So that's another option, although it does require AC power, and it's fussy to adjust on the fly if you need to change EQ or any of the patch settings (one reason I don't use it any more).

Another way is to hook up a patch cable from the PA mixer's insert jack, out to your pedal and back to the mixer, using a stereo cable and breakout Y plugs for the pedal.


Also - If I purchase a mini mic setup, how concerned should I be with feedback? I don't plan on jumping up and down in front of the PA speakers....but I know this is a concern when you decide to take the mini mic route.

A clip-on mic will give up a few db more gain before feedback than playing into an external mic on a stand, because the mic is getting a louder signal (unless you're real good at locking a mandolin into position 1/4" away from an external mic!). So in that respect, it's the most feedback-resistant way to still get a natural "acoustic" sound from the instrument. Once you go to a pickup, you're only hearing a tiny portion of the instrument through vibration alone, and not the resonant air mass inside the instrument.

However, a pickup is usually more resistant to feedback than a clip-on mic, because it can't directly hear the output of the monitors or FOH speakers. It has to get the resonant feedback loop through wood vibration alone. So the bottom line is that you'll have to be a little more careful about stage volume levels and your position relative to any monitors or FOH speakers than you would with a pickup. Like Mandroid said, it's about placement, and also controlled stage volume. If you don't run your stage too loud (no drums, no loud electric bass so everyone has to turn up their monitors, etc.), then it works fine.

[Jim Nollman]

The two mics I like best, that meet your criteria, are the DPA 4099 and the Schertler. I own a Schertler, and it works fine for me. If i didn't own one already, and if i was actively seeking a solution, I'm not sure which of the two mics I'd buy.

One of these days, Folded Path and I are probably going to get together to play and compare gear. I have no doubt we'll come away from that meeting having a better idea how these two mics sound on two very different mandolins. if/when it happens, we'll be sure to report back here.

Mandroid and I are probably the two most vocal Schertler enthusiasts on the Cafe. We agree that the Schertler does NOT mar the finish of a mandolin to any detriment. Look at this way. My mandolin is a handmade original by one of the foremost builders in the land. There's no way in the world I'd use the schertler more than once, if pieces of finish started coming off with the goo. At this point, I've probably applied and unapplied the mic at least 100 times.

I was a little concerned at the start, but that was a function of me using way too much goo. Less is more. Now that I've had it for awhile, I roll out a very thin string of it, apply it to the mic perimeter, then push it against the wood, just behind the treble side of the bridge. Does the job just fine.

No preamp.

I've never experienced feedback while using the Schertler. By contrast, my fiddle player used an ATM gooseneck mic for a while. I'm not sure of the exact model. Through certain sound systems, she found herself contending with feedback too often. So she went back to using a mic on a stand.

[mandroid]

Seems to me with a mini mic on the instrument + moving around
you can find your self moving in and out of places where the sound feeds back.

Mic on a stick is not moving and so once that is checked and is not howling ,
then you moving in and out doesn't change things.

You, of course, can turn a contact pickup into a microphone , by having the soundboard
act as a diaphragm, but that would be a pretty loud stage.

[mandowilli]

Seems to me with a mini mic on the instrument + moving around
you can find your self moving in and out of places where the sound feeds back.

So true. I used to employ a crown mini condenser mic with an xlr termination that required phantom power. Using a Roland AC-60 amp did this for me and acted as a preamp. I clipped the mini mic, smaller than a postage stamp, to the sound hole using a small plastic clip that I took from a cellphone hands free cable. Sounded great! Until I moved the wrong way which will so often happen, and feedback ensued.
It is going to happen....

[Charlieshafer]

As Folded again mentioned (dang, he's beat me to it again) one of our favorite set-ups is to have each individual instrument on a clip-on or pickup, whatever the artists bring in (though we prefer the sound of mics, like most folks). This is set at a reasonably calm, even level with all the instruments. By keeping it relatively low, feedback potential is reduced. Then depending on stage arrangement, each player has a mic to solo into for added volume, or there's a single solo mic.

Feedback becomes much less of a problem with a little experimentation. The lower you keep the gain on a mic you might be prancing around in front of a monitor with, the less chance of feedback. To balance this, we keep our main power amps to the house speakers up high, so we can keep stage mic gain as low as possible. We get a much cleaner sound this way, too. When pushed, mics can get a little hot and crispy. So, your assignment is to get the mic/monitor/pa setup all assembled in a garage, or room, or something, and walk around while playing in front of the monitors, with the monitors set at a level you'll be using. Mains levels of the speakers out into the room is irrelevant, you won;t be in front of those. But you'll get a feel for it pretty quickly with practice

[TJe153]

*Update* - I had time to visit two places today and tried out a few of the options.

(1) I got my hands on a used AT Pro-35 and ran it through the mic channel on the Marshall A550D (two channel) and it sounded great. Although I was only able to use the goose neck clip (and attached it directly to my tailpiece) it did sound quite good.

(2) I also was able to try out a Pro 70 which was not bad, but seemed to be much more sensitive. I was not particularly impressed, and I only ran this through a mixer.

(3) The curve ball, a full size AKG C-1000S through the mixer. And it provided the full sound I would have expected from a full size mic of that quality. Pretty damn good IMHO.

So what was the result? I think I have a decision to make and it all depends upon my desire to be mobile. If I were to go for mobility (read: the mini mic option), the Pro 35 would be a great option, but I think a retro fitted clip would be best. When I was in engineering mode, I thought that gluing the flat part of the Pro 35 goose neck clip to my cumberland armrest (which I currently do not use) and making the adjustments would work fine. The fact that the DPA 4099v is ~$80, is a little nutty.

Or I go the non mobility route and buy a full size mic, stand, cable, and maybe a shock mount. Which is a viable option since my weber does not lack volume...But would I need to run something between the mic and the pa board? Any other suggestions on mic choice?

Big thanks to everyone who provided advice, and those who may respond after this post. I (and others, im sure) appreciate it. :)

[Toni Schula]

If you go for a full sized mic you need nothing between the mic and the board but the cable. The AKG C 1000 S can even be battery powered if phantom power is not available. It's a nice mic but I may be biased as I live just a couple of miles from the AKG headquarter...

[Toni Schula]

Thanks Foldedpath for the suggestion to use clip on mic and stand mounted mic in parallel. I will try this at the next gig. I never thought about this option. Moving in to the solo mic for sure looks better than searching for and stomping on the volume pedal with your toe ;-)

[TJe153]

I decided to search my picture archive and see what kind of incidental research I have about mandolins and pickup/mics. These are pics from Delfest 2011 and include the mando player from the Rocking Acoustic Circus (Sterling Abernathy), Punch Brothers (Chris Thile) and Michael Chappell from Head for the Hills. Looks like Abernathy and Thile are using the same setup and Chappell has an internal setup with the funky external control/power box. God bless high zoom lenses.

It was nice to see how they are mounting the mini-mic - seems like using a clip in conjunction with gravity is a nice option.