Oval vs. f-hole in A style?

[RickPick]

In general, I'm wondering what differences there are in sound between A-style mandolins that have oval holes and those that have f-holes. In what way(s) does the shape of the hole affect the sound?
In particular, I'm thinking about a Kentucky KM900 (which has f-holes) and an equivalent value mandolin (possibly Kentucky, possibly not) with an oval hole. As always, the vast experience of this forum is most welcome! :)

[Steve Ostrander]

Try searching this site on this topic. It's been discussed a lot.

BTW, The km900 is a fabulous mandolin for the money. Best mandolin under 1K that I've played. There's one listed in the classifieds right now from TMS. That's where I bought mine (and several others.) Good mandolin, good people to deal with. NFI.

[RickPick]

Thanks, Steve, I've certainly heard lots of good news about the KM900. But I like the LOOKS of the oval hole more, yet don't live where I can actually hear differences. I haven't found the magic search words to effectively find much discussion on this topic. If you can make any suggested links, that would be excellent. I can almost hear the pitter-patter of hooves on MY rooftop already!

[allenhopkins]

Generalizing:

Oval hole: longer sustain, more of a "ring," not as sharp an attack or as quick a decay, "sweeter" sound;

F-hole: sharp, loud attack, quick decay, "bark" rather than "ring," clearer, more penetrating sound.

Generalities are of limited use; each instrument is different, even from another of the same make, model and vintage. There are a host of other variables: carved vs. flat, canted or pressed top; solid wood vs. plywood; scale length, bridge height, brand/gauge of strings, type of pick, player technique. So you may encounter the sweeter-sounding F-hole instrument, or the "barking" oval-hole. But the above summarizes the consensus of conventional wisdom, IMHO.

[red7flag]

Allen is right on. I play f hole mandos mostly for bluegrass where a major aim is stand out in a loud cacophonous group of instruments. I really enjoy an oval hole in duets or Celtic music where the focus is on complimenting the other instruments rather than standing out from them. This is an over generalization, but mostly accurate.

[RickPick]

Thanks, folks. This is very helpful. Most of the mandolin picking I've heard has been with bluegrass groups, although it's very unlikely I'll be playing with a bluegrass band (not in this lifetime, anyway). I'm taking Celtic fiddle lessons now, and while I'm not sure of what sort of music I'll learn on mandolin, I doubt "bark" will be a major "must have" element in my decision.
Having said that, does anyone know of oval hole mandolins that are as great a bargain as the KM900 seems to be? I can't find that Kentucky HAS an equivalent, but with an oval hole instead of an f hole. Please tell me if they do! I'll order one and leave this forum alone! (for a short while anyway....)

[joshtree]

Funny that you should pose the question today, as I was in the Music Emporium today playing everything they would let me. payed particular attention to that exact question. to respond to your last comment (but not really) Check out Arches. I really liked the one I played today, and I am going to check out the FT that they are getting in soon. it I hope may fit the bill (for me)

[Brent Hutto]

Equivalent "value" means nothing. Yes, oval holes sound different than F holes. But you can't say "Give me an A body, some F holes and $327.50 worth of sound" and get a certain sound. A mandolin sounds like it sounds, whether it cost the same, more or less than some other mandolin. I've played F-hole, A-style mandolins that sounded not at all like each other regardless of price tags. And same for oval holes or F-style. You won't know until you listen to it.

But don't get too caught up in the different shaped holes (or different shaped bodies) for such-and-such kind of music. That is at best a very loose approximation that might be true averaged over many mandolins and many listeners. But only one listener counts (You) and one mandolin counts (Yours) and it's absolutely possible it will be the opposite of what "they say" about oval or F holes.

[JeffD]

Allen is right on. I play f hole mandos mostly for bluegrass where a major aim is stand out in a loud cacophonous group of instruments. I really enjoy an oval hole in duets or Celtic music where the focus is on complimenting the other instruments rather than standing out from them. This is an over generalization, but mostly accurate.


My experience as well. And as a result my leaning is towards oval holes. The only exception being a Collings MT I tried out which sounded very round hole-ish to me.

[DerTiefster]

listen to the archives on several vendor pages like GregBoyd.com and themandolinstore.com for various instruments. Listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB7yyp9tw1s for an example of ff-hole and oval-hole (albeit 10-string) mandolins essentially side-by-side an see what you perceive as the difference. (that youtube is one of my favorite comparisons). Then buy from someone who has helped you learn what you wanted to learn. That education is worth something and costs something to maintain on the web.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Check out Arches. I really liked the one I played today, and I am going to check out the FT that they are getting in soon. it I hope may fit the bill (for me)

Well there is one that popped up on the classifieds right now. NFI. You don't see one used for sale very often, and this should go quickly.

I know the whole spiel about checking out as many instruments as possible and play one before you buy etc. But the reality is that unlike F-hole models, there just aren't that many oval hole mandolins to choose from south of $1k that rivals the quality of the KM-900. Eastman has a line of oval hole models that are quite decent, and Arches FT (used) is a great deal in the same budget. The next step up would be a Weber Gallatin A, or a Collings MT-O, both of them are great, wonderful instruments. You may want to look around for one of those Gibson teens oval A. If they are set up right, and require no repair, they can be wonderful instruments for not much money.

[RickPick]

Thanks (as ever) for all this great information and response. My basic problem continues to be that there are few mandolins around that I can try out, even though I know that playing and listening is by far the best method. Still, I'm committed to spending some money I made selling my library when I retired on something smaller than my library! But it looks like purchasing a new instrument is going to provide me the best chance of getting something close to what suits me, and this forum is really helping me get that initial purchase RIGHT! Right now, I'm about a nano-second away from ordering a Kentucky KM-900, and am only dithering because I hope I might find an oval-hole that comes with the same reputation as the KM-900 and at the same price. And I'm even considering buying a not-as-good F style to take with me when I go walkabout. Still, even two mandolins is SO much smaller than my library!

[Jim Garber]

I think in general there is the most difference between an x-braced, f-holed longer necked mandolin and a transverse-braced shorter necked one (like the traditional Gibson oval As). In the middle is the x-braced, oval-hole, long necked ones often termed hybrids. In these hybridsa, the longer neck positions the bridge in the center of the soundboard and the x-bracing tightens the sound a bit but the oval hole still mellows it out some

[mandobassman]

I think the KM900 would be an excellent choice. Of the sound clips I have heard of them, they seem deeper toned and slightly mellower (?) than the other f-hole Kentucky's. Depending on your string and pick choice, you can easily play any kind of music you want on a f-hole mandolin. If you really want a oval-hole, two models come to mind. One is the Breedlove Quartz OO. I have the Quartz OF and it is a fabulous mandolin. The OO is the exact same thing except with oval-hole and, I believe, X-braced. You can get them used for under $1000 (I've seen them as low as $700). The other one that comes to mind is the oval-hole models from Howard Morris. His mandolins get excellent comments by users regularly on the Cafe. And, they're inexpensive as well.
This Arches in the classifieds is spectacular also.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=52581&query=retrieval

[Brent Hutto]

Another possibility is to order up a KM900 from a dealer who will give you 48-72 hours to decide if you like it and who also stocks one or more oval hole models. As friend Larry says, it's likely you can play whatever kind of music you like on the KM900 but if you just find its tone doesn't "do it" for you then you could exchange it for something in the oval range. You'd be out the cost of two ways shipping but that beats buying something then selling it at a loss because you don't like it.

Of course buying a used mandolin at a fair price off the Classifieds here is another way to minimize your risk of losing (much) money if you change your mind.

[mandobassman]

There's a beautiful Breedlove Olympic that just showed up in the classifieds tonight. Nice price. That's not much more than I paid for my Quartz OF and it's a step up in wood and quality. Very nice mandolin.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=52621&query=retrieval

[Greenmando]

,,I'm about a nano-second away from ordering a Kentucky KM-900, and am only dithering because I hope I might find an oval-hole that comes with the same reputation as the KM-900 and at the same price. And I'm even considering buying a not-as-good F style to take with me when I go walkabout. Still, even two mandolins is SO much smaller than my library!Do not forget the used market. I have bought many used mandolins at half the price thru the classifieds here. I bought a brown Eastman 804d Two Point for $600 here, sold it a few years later for the same price.

Wow. I googled 804d and the first few pics were mine. As well as a few others for some reason.

[MWCarr]

This is a personal observation, but one that is guiding me away from f holed instruments towards an oval. In reality I spend vastly more time practicing and playing alone than in performance and I find the oval sound is easier to hear. I like the sound of my Weber Yellowstone, but only really appreciate it when someone else is playing it and I can be in front of it. For what it's worth, if you are mostly going to be playing alone, I would steer to the oval hole mandolin.

[Chip Booth]

Oval Hole: Butterfly Waltz (http://chipbooth.com/music/ButterflyWaltzMix01.mp3)

F Hole: Fishers Hornpipe (http://chipbooth.com/music/FishersGilchristMix05.mp3)

[Jim Garber]

Oval Hole: Butterfly Waltz (http://chipbooth.com/music/ButterflyWaltzMix01.mp3)

F Hole: Fishers Hornpipe (http://chipbooth.com/music/FishersGilchristMix05.mp3)

Chip, I really enjoyed your playing. That Butterfly Waltz is really nice and super-sweet tone on "both" instruments. What mandolin is that?

[Chip Booth]

Thanks Jim, the Butterfly waltz is something I started writing but never got around to finishing. It is played on my '24 Gibson A Jr. Fishers is played on my '06 Gilchrist Model 3.

[Markus]

I would seriously look at Larry's link, that's a really nice price on that Breedlove. I have a f-hole version and love it, like Larry.

The KM900 has a number of happy owners as well, hard to discount that.

Very different instruments, I bet you could make either work as they're quality instruments.

[Jim Garber]

Thanks Jim, the Butterfly waltz is something I started writing but never got around to finishing. It is played on my '24 Gibson A Jr. Fishers is played on my '06 Gilchrist Model 3.

Wow! I have a 24 A Jr that is in the repair queue. That is an incentive to get it playable. I was almost expecting a Gilchrist oval. Beautiful.

[mandobassman]

That is one of the most beautiful sounding Gibson ovals I have ever heard. Wonderful tone. Beautiful playing as well. Where else can we hear some of your playing, especially on that A Jr.

[mandobassman]

I would seriously look at Larry's link, that's a really nice price on that Breedlove. I have a f-hole version and love it, like Larry.

The KM900 has a number of happy owners as well, hard to discount that.

Very different instruments, I bet you could make either work as they're quality instruments.

Also, while both are great instruments, I think the Breedlove will provide a more versatile tone for the music you are leaning towards.

[JeffD]

This is a personal observation, but one that is guiding me away from f holed instruments towards an oval. In reality I spend vastly more time practicing and playing alone than in performance and I find the oval sound is easier to hear. I like the sound of my Weber Yellowstone, but only really appreciate it when someone else is playing it and I can be in front of it. For what it's worth, if you are mostly going to be playing alone, I would steer to the oval hole mandolin.

There is something to this. I would always advocate playing out in public as much as possible, but... if you are not happy with the sound of your instrument when playing alone at home (and we all play alone for a significant amount of time), then you won't enjoy playing at all.

I prefer an oval hole, for a host of reasons. I would not want anyone to think that the oval hole is inadequate for playing in public. The only thing an oval hole can't do as well as the ff hole mandolin is the blugrass chop, and there the difference can be mitigated by the player (and the selection of pick) to a large extent.

Its a different sound, and may or may not be one's preference. Or perhaps justification to get one of each.

But I would not say the difference is so great between an oval hole and an ff hole that one is public playing and the other for private playing.

I play my oval hole at home with one pick, that gives a nice warm tone, and another pick when I play it out in a large group, to give me more punch. I have never had a problem being heard. (I have had problems being listened to, but thats different. :) )

[mandobassman]

Awesome Breedlove but in today's classifieds.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=52869&query=retrieval

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Awesome Breedlove but in today's classifieds.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=52869&query=retrieval

Damn it, I might have to jump.

[mandobassman]

Oops! That was supposed to be "Awesome Breedlove BUY" I guess spell check doesn't doesn't check usage.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I thought the flame on the back of that one was the best I'd ever seen. NFI.