Harmony Monterey serial numbers

[mandobassman]

I just picked up a Harmony Monterey from Craigslist. It's in real nice shape except for the tuners (a few of the shafts are bent). I'll probably replace the rosewood bridge as well. But I'm wondering about the serial numbers. Does anyone know about the serial number system for these? It is stamped onto the wood inside and it reads 5732B410. Is there any way to tell the date it was made? Thanks for any info.

[acousticphd]

Most, but not all Harmony instruments have a date stamp, in the format "F62" (fall 1962) or "S70" (summer 1970). It is usually stamped more or less in the middle of the back. If there is no visible date stamp, probably the best guess comes from comparing it with similar examples that do have a date. It could be anywhere from '50s to early '70s.

I would be pretty sure that the "B" in your model number is in fact a blurry "H", for Harmony. All my harmony instruments (several guitars and mandolins) have model/serial number stamp in the format "XXXXHXXXX". I know that the numerals after the H indicate the model (like 1210 or 962 or 8081). I have seen it said here that Harmonys don't have 'serial' numbers as such.

[mandobassman]

Thanks Jeff,

After I posted this I did some searching and read the same thing. I believe you're right about the "B" being a "H". I have not been able to locate a date stamp. By the way, one of the posts I found in my search was a response by Mike Edgerton that said the "F" and "S" in the date stands for First half of the year and Second half of the year. He got that info from someone who worked for Harmony. Anyway, as I said, I can't locate a date stamp. The number I posted is inside the bass F hole. On the upper bout bass side there is a "HC" stamp that is right up against where the back and side is glued together. Any idea what this stands for?

[jaycat]

My Monterey has neither a serial number nor a date stamp. The seller represented it as being from the 1940s, but I don't know how he arrived at that conclusion. He did say he had purchased it from Elderly, so maybe they knew something & maybe they can help you?

[MikeEdgerton]

Post a picture of the back of the headstock as well as the front of the entire mandolin. Some of these can be dated from the tuners (at least to a decade or so). The date stamp is at times hard to see, try shining a flashlight in though the f holes and looking at different angles. I think they used disappearing ink on some of them (or so it seems).

The old convention was F=Fall, S-Summer. Then someone that worked for Harmony actually was interviewed and the F=First Half S=Second Half came to light. It made more sense.

Either way pictures are the best way. The model number 5732H410 could shed some light but there are no real records available. Generally it's thought that one side of the H is the model and the other side might be a serialized number in that batch. Unfortunately that doesn't get you anything unless there are factory records and there are none that have surfaced as of yet.

[jaycat]

Here's the photos -- I won't be able to try the flashlight til I get home from work. I did try that before but I can try harder.

7909679097

Thanks! jc.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd take that to be from the 40's from the tuners. Here's a Harmony Monterey add from the mid 30's. I can date it because on the other side of the page there were Kalamazoo mandolins that could be dated from their appointments.

[mandobassman]

Thanks for your input Mike. I'm assuming you were talking about photos of my mandolin since I'm the OP. It doesn't have strings on it and I removed the finger rest to clean it. The finger rest is black plastic and the bridge is the standard rosewood. I'll probably replace it with a new bridge. The tailpiece cover was missing so I don't know if it was the cloud or the long bean shaped version. I have searched the entire inside of the body with no sign of a date stamp. Checked from all angles. The only thing I found other than the number I showed in the original post is a "HC" printed on the inside of the body on the bass side of the upper bout right on the very edge. Here's the photos.

7909979100791017910279103

[jaycat]

Thanks for your input Mike. I'm assuming you were talking about photos of my mandolin since I'm the OP.


I'm confused now too Larry! Sure didn't mean to jump your train.

But while I have you -- have you had a chance to play it? If so, what are your impressions?

thx, jc,

[mandobassman]

I'm confused now too Larry! Sure didn't mean to jump your train.

But while I have you -- have you had a chance to play it? If so, what are your impressions?

thx, jc,

No problem JC. I was assuming Mike was referring to my mandolin since he mentioned the serial# of mine in his post. Did you get a look at the ad Mike posted? Mine, based on the number inside, is the model 410 while yours more resembles the other one listed, the model 327. I have not played it yet. the strings were so old looking and rusted they almost looked original (just kidding). It wasn't tuned up when I got it and I wasn't about to try. I couldn't believe how much daylight there was under the bridge, so it looks like it was never fitted properly. I didn't have a extra set of strings so I need to order them. While I'm at it I'm going to order a new bridge and a new set of tuners. Since the tailpiece cover is missing and the remaining edges are sharp, I might order a tailpiece too. I'll probably get it in working order sometime next week. I'll give you my assessment after I play it.

[mandobassman]

One other question. I just removed the tuners and measured the spacing. It appears they use the older 23.65mm post spacing. Are the Golden Age Restoration Tuners from Stew-Mac the only option for replacements? Aside from Waverly's, they are the only ones I have found.

[MikeEdgerton]

Yeah, I got confused too. The first pictures of Jaycat's is a 40's as far as I can tell. It looks like the second set of pics (Larry's) is a later model, maybe the 60's. Are there any date codes that anyone can see????

The tailpiece cover was most likely a cloud, I haven't seen the bean on anything that new.

[jaycat]

Well, I looked inside as hard as I could, and found nothing except a dust bunny the size of a ping-pong ball. I wonder what the market is for 70-yr-old dust?

I'm happy enough with the tone, but the action is a bit high as you go up the fretboard. Not sure this can be fixed just by messing with the adjustable bridge?

[MikeEdgerton]

Well, if the dust was put there by Lloyd Loar it might have value, otherwise it's pretty much just dust :)

Try messing with the bridge height but some of these will have some bow in the neck that might keep you from getting the action low.

[Bradley Boss]

I just picked up a Harmony Monterey the stamps read as so 3561H417 and UV-S2S. Can anyone put a guesstimated year of when this mandoline was built.

[MikeEdgerton]

That date code doesn't follow the traditional Harmony Date Coding system and shows up on mandolins that were built very late in the Harmony Company history just before the company closed. I'm sure that someone will pop in with the exact date it was used. Post a picture of the front and back.

Past discussions:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/107773-Meaning-of-the-UV-S2S-date-code-inside-Montery-mandolins

[Press3088]

1945 Harmony Monterey
Hello everyone, I recently purchased a Harmony Monterey guitar and have some questions about it for anyone who might know some history on these guitars. The ink stamp inside, S 45 means it was made in the second half of the year and Harmony guitar company has verified that from the pictures I sent them but the model number doesn’t match what anyone thinks it is. It is stamped, H996 but Harmony didn’t make a H996 model. They told me it was probably a H1456 model. I contacted Gruhn guitar in Nashville,Tn with lots of pictures of the guitar and ink stamps and they told me they think it is a H 950 model. Has anyone else had this problem or heard of this happening before ? I would really like to know why my Harmony Monterey has a model number stamped inside that they never built ?

[Jeff Mando]

A 5 second Google search shows several H996 guitars, many for sale, FWIW. :confused:

[NickR]

H996 as already mentioned is a Harmony Monterey. However, code number discrepancies with Harmony is common and there is a simple reason-they stamped the body up for a certain model but on the day, there might be shortages for bodies for another model so bodies were grabbed that were originally meant to be finished as a different model. On a minor issue, many do not agree with the meaning of the F and S and the doyen of the Vintage Original US Made Chicago Harmony Guitars Facebook page is, of the opinion, looking at how the guitars appeared and when in catalogues, that S really means spring and F means Fall. Here's an H996 Monterey: https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/2010/11/c1947-harmony-h996-monterey-archtop.html

[MikeEdgerton]

Sorry not buying the S and F as a season. The information of First and Second half of the year was from a former Harmony employee and Summer and Fall means they didn't manufacture anything in the winter? Why wouldn't S mean Spring? We all believed that in the old days, I don't buy it now.

[Jeff Mando]

I think most people agree that the stamp indicates the year, regardless of when during that year, which should be close enough for most purposes. I will say the F and S is a curious thing.

I think it is a very human thing for us to want to figure out the codes of manufacturing, if such a system exists.

Another unrelated story I've often heard is that prior to Fender stamping the neck dates on guitars, employees dated and initialed the neck heel, usually with a dull pencil. This continued for years until someone took theirs apart and it said something to the effect of "what the H*%# are you looking in here for?" Or maybe even something more rude. Soon after, the stamped heel numbers started. Not sure if it is merely urban legend or not, but certainly gave me a good chuckle.

[NickR]

We had the S and F discourse a while back and you mentioned the Sears catalogues were Spring and Fall and the guy at the Facebook page has documented this- which seems to follow this explanation rather than the "first" and "second" half suggestion that was a more recent but possible explanation which was mentioned by the late Francois Demont who ran the Harmony Database, because it was stated by a factory employee. The guy at the FB page probably knows more about Harmony than anybody else, so his interest in this debate comes from some extensive knowledge, so I tend to go with his knowledge on the subject while I have seen information myself that backs up his assertion, although it is not a very important thing. The Cowboy Guitars book by Steve Evans from 2002 has all the date stamp variations and other Harmony lore and is a great source of detail and certainly helps identify Harmony, Kay, Regal and Richter parlour guitars which are often very similar.

[MikeEdgerton]

We had the S and F discourse a while back and you mentioned the Sears catalogues were Spring and Fall and the guy at the Facebook page has documented this- which seems to follow this explanation rather than the "first" and "second" half suggestion that was a more recent but possible explanation which was mentioned by the late Francois Demont who ran the Harmony Database, because it was stated by a factory employee. The guy at the FB page probably knows more about Harmony than anybody else, so his interest in this debate comes from some extensive knowledge, so I tend to go with his knowledge on the subject while I have seen information myself that backs up his assertion, although it is not a very important thing. The Cowboy Guitars book by Steve Evans from 2002 has all the date stamp variations and other Harmony lore and is a great source of detail and certainly helps identify Harmony, Kay, Regal and Richter parlour guitars which are often very similar.

And again, we all believed that back in the day before someone actually got that information from a former employee. I'm going with that. The first and second half actually corresponds with the way many American factories operated. Around June/July they would close for a few weeks for retooling, maintenance and such and that's when people got to go on vacation (everybody but the maintenance crews). I was buying these things new in the 60's. Nobody ever even looked back then. There was never a Summer buying season for guitars. If they had a Fall catalog they probably would have called it a Christmas catalog because there was a buying season associated with that. Most large retailers were buying their Christmas stock in August and September. As much as someone wants this to be true I'm still going with the word of someone that was there.

[MikeEdgerton]

I think most people agree that the stamp indicates the year, regardless of when during that year, which should be close enough for most purposes...

Except there were exceptions to that at some point as well. There is at least one "Date Code" that challenges that. Unfortunately Harmony didn't leave a whole bunch of records.

[NickR]

Steve Evans in his book states that F32 is the first date stamp. If he is correct- and he's a spring/fall man, then there is no S32 date stamp out there. Of course, if someone has an S32 date stamp then it must be first and second. As I have written before, you can see evolution, such as the introduction of new tuners and tailpieces etc which seem to back the spring/fall argument- otherwise, time would be moving backwards. It is not an important issue but I have seen it become a little heated, elsewhere! My latest Harmony purchase which is in a Sears, Roebuck catalogue but I cannot recall the date is from about 1933, and as luck would have it, it has no label or date stamp- although they were sometimes on the label. The good news, is it plays well- great neck with no cracks in the board, no warping of the top and the crack on the back which was also pulling away a bit, were an easy fix. It came with a cheapo canvas case in great order- that's a rarity! Here's an eBay auction photo of it.

206385

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't see where that is proof of anything by the way, if Harmony had wanted to serialize their instruments they could have. Your mandolin looks familiar, I've had this one since the late 1960's. My Uncle Ken received it used as a gift in the 30's.

[NickR]

Mike, that's the same instrument, all right. I think, judging by the catalogue illustration, a "price cut" version was sold but it has the less expensive neck with the larger headstock. Out of interest, does yours have a label or date stamp to confirm the date? Mine has brass tuners which is why I think it is early 30s.

[Jeff Mando]

My point being -- if you want to locate a "specific date" instrument, such as your birthday -- then, F or S has little meaning in reaching this goal. The year, however, is significant, IMHO. Let's say I want an instrument that was in use during Hank Williams, Sr.'s lifetime, for example. "Beatles era" instruments would be another reason to know the year, as I see it.

Not Harmony, but in the case of Gibson, I own a 1984 Gibson Les Paul. With a little research, I found it was made on June 6, 1984 -- a Wednesday, which made me happy it wasn't a Monday or Friday guitar, FWIW. Norlin was sold in 1986, so my guitar is definitely a Norlin era Gibson. But, interestingly, Gibson closed their Kalamazoo factory on June 29, 1984 -- so I had hope that mine was one of the last Kalamazoo Les Pauls, keep in mind Gibson opened the Nashville plant in 1974 and Les Paul's were being made in both factories, so....anyway, among the misinformation offered by the internet, I found a few people who actually sounded like they knew what they were talking about. The verdict: not 100%, but mine was made in Nashville beyond a "reasonable" doubt, which still leaves me with the hope for Kalamazoo origin.

Does it matter? Not really, it is just fun research guitar nuts like to do. And, I like the guitar, regardless.

[MikeEdgerton]

Mike, that's the same instrument, all right. I think, judging by the catalogue illustration, a "price cut" version was sold but it has the less expensive neck with the larger headstock. Out of interest, does yours have a label or date stamp to confirm the date? Mine has brass tuners which is why I think it is early 30s.

Mine has a small piece of label that I can't even identify, maybe 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch. No date code. For many years I assumed it was a Regal. Later I determined it was most likely a Harmony.

[MikeEdgerton]

Mike, that's the same instrument, all right. I think, judging by the catalogue illustration, a "price cut" version was sold but it has the less expensive neck with the larger headstock. Out of interest, does yours have a label or date stamp to confirm the date? Mine has brass tuners which is why I think it is early 30s.

So every mandolin deserves a story. I may have told this before. My uncle was thrown out of just about every bar in my hometown with that mandolin. There are small nails holding it together. In the late 60's my aunt threw him out for being a less than stellar husband. He was sleeping on my parents couch for a month or so and finally his sainted wife took him back with one caveat. He had to get rid of the mandolin. Apparently she realized that mandolins are the things that break up marriages. Now, my wife thinks I play better by far. The farther away the better. One time I was working on Hank Williams' Lovesick Blues. She told me it sounded awful. The next week we were in the car and I was playing a CD (remember those?) and Hank Williams comes on singing Lovesick Blues. She says "Well, you sound better than that guy does" but I digress. No mandolin ever broke up my marriage but apparently it did for my aunt and uncle. That's how that mandolin came to be mine. During the great depression my mother's family lived across the street from a firehouse. One of the fireman gave that mandolin to my uncle. If you find a catalog page I'd love to see it.

[NickR]

Mike does your label fragment have blue in it? I think at the time these were made it was a mainly blue circular label used by Supertone but a little later on it was mostly off-white.

Your mandolin story is great if tinged with sadness- but the mandolin was clearly a prized possession that your uncle had for decades, so it is good that you are looking after it. For many years I was constantly being told that my mandolin playing was awful and why couldn't I play "such and such" a tune. For years I was struggling not to drop the pick and just cleanly pick a note and advance to a tremolo or just fret the notes cleanly. Learning mandolin is a bit like constructing something where you have to learn to make each individual piece- unlike piano where you just hit the key and the note sounds.
As I mentioned, this Sears, Roebuck catalogue advertisement heralds a price cut and it shows a different neck and headstock- was it a downgraded version and was the mandolin made with a cheaper neck or is it just the art department copying another mandolin with that chunkier headstock and shorter board, I don' know. One of these mandolins was posted up on the Stromberg Voisinet Kay Kraft site and everyone was saying it was a Regal. I said it was a Harmony- the fingerboard extension is the most obvious sign of difference to a Regal. I posted the photo up on the Harmony Guys board and one of the members who is on Ancestry.Com ( I think) has access through it to Sears catalogues and he quickly found this which from memory I think he stated was 1933. As you can see the fingerboard in the illustration is not extended over the sound hole with that sharp straight line cut.

206397

[NickR]

I plan to make a slightly larger tortoiseshell pickguard. The current one is broken by the top fixing screw but I have mended it. At some point it was glued at the edge which has dissolved and taken off the finish, so a slightly wider and longer guard will cover a few marks and will enhance its look a bit. Here are the tuners- Harmony seems to have gone for brass in a big way in the late 20s /early 30s which is another reason I think it is very early 1930s.

206398

[NickR]

With the new celluloid tortoiseshell pickguard. In the end, I did not make it bigger to cover the damage to the finish where the other black broken one had been stuck down a bit. You can see the finish damage caused by the earlier crack repair- the glue dissolved it.

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