Should luthiers get a cut?

[Jonathan James]

I was intriqued by a classified ad today about a pair of Gilchrists possibly going up for sale with a "significant" portion of the proceeds going back to Steve Gilchrist.

Got me thinking. Should a luthier somehow share in the future profits of one of his instruments? Dudenbostal, Gilchrist, Nuggest, Wiens, Kimble, Duff, Hillburn, etc. all have multi-year waiting lists or have stopped taking new orders altogether. Customers already on their lists can oftentimes "flip" instruments after delivery due to the ramp in popularity of certain models. Should a luthier be entitled to some of the profit jump or simply ramp their prices in accordance with the market movement?

[Jim Hilburn]

I say yes to that. As soon as any of you guys with one of mine makes a ton of money on it, I'll give you the address to send the check.

[TommyK]

Royalties on the sale of a used instrument??? #Gilchrist, if this is true, really takes the cake. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
If Harley Davidson did this I think their customers would storm the castle.
He should either figure out how to step up production to meet demand or raise his price.
I hope he has his legal house in order. #This smacks of usery or something similar. He should be happy he's selling all he can make.

[Nick Triesch]

Sorry, That is strange thinking. Garth Brooks a few years back wanted a cut from used CDs. It did not fly. And it will not fly with mandolins. Ever. If you buy a painting for $500.00 and it sells for $5000.00 8 years later should you pay the artist? How bout home sales in southern cal. I sold a house for $118,000 13 years ago and now it's worth $500,000! I want my cut! Right. Give me a break. Nick

[TommyK]

It does make one wonder though, I flp a mando and the manufacturer gets a "...significant cut..." from the flipped sale of this 'hot' seller, does that put ME a little higher on the waiting list??
I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but it does make me wonder. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[peterleyenaar]

What will they think of next ?

[SternART]

I think it is up to the purchaser.......I personally bought a custom mandolin from an up & coming luthier, and in the year I owned it, it appreciated significantly. I really liked the instrument, and the builder, but there is stiff competition around here..... I own a few mandos.....and when I sold it, I sent a portion of my profit to the builder. While this certainly isn't required, I thought it was a good idea.

I've seen some examples where the instrument is returned to the builder & they earn some money for finding a new home for it, handling the transaction, etc......

[Jonathan James]

You may have misunderstood. Steve Gilchrist has absolutely NOTHING to do with this. A person who owns a couple of Gilchrists is apparently considering a donation back to Steve, based on the healthy profit I'm sure will be made on the sale of some of his instruments....

[Mandobar]

royalties from used cd's is just silly and would be "double-dipping". leave it to garth to lose sight of reality.

[mandofiddle]

Personally, I don't think it should be required, but... If I bought a Gilchrist new, and turned right around and sold it for a $15k profit, I'd darn sure make sure to send some of that back to Steve. That's just because I personally think it's the right thing to do. But that's just me http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[peterleyenaar]

jjboone 101, on second thought , I think you are on to something, I would even take it further, everyone who has ever owned the thing should get a cut, so we can all share,
Hey Marc , please send my cheque before Christmas and all yous other guys whom I have sold mandolins to http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jonathan James]

I guess I agree with Mandofiddle on this one. If you check the Forbes List of Wealthiest Americans, I've yet to find a luthier on there. So, I'd probably share the wealth a bit since we so enjoy the wonderful fruits of their labor...

[cutbait2]

i think Steve has taken care of that with the way he was taking orders ie no deposit, if you don't want it, the next guy on the list gets it, at market price (as far as I know)

i notice there are no pics and no date, perhaps this guy has put his thinking cap on and instead of coming up with the cash to pay for his "ready to be delivered" will let you send Steve a check for the mando's and skim some off the top? just speculation

hey anybody want to buy my place on the list? $5000

(just kidding Steve)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Actually..the guy could have any number of motives...for example if Steve somehow gave him some great "buddy deal/donation/whatever..I'd be trying to do a "CYA". One of the worst things a person can do is turn around and sell into a huge profit at the person who just did you a favor's expense
...just a thought

[Tim]

If I buy one and the price drops, will the luthier cover my loss?

I saw nothing in the ad that made me think the luthier had any role but there could be more to the story.

[mtnrose]

I dunno, seems like a luthier could just make an extra instrument a year or so, hang onto it & sell as prices go up.

How many Loar owners would be willing to send money back to Gibson?

[J. Wiens]

This is certainly interesting to see the views being expressed here. I personally think it's great when a fine instrument owner recognizes the blood sweat and tears of the craftsman who built it and decides to cut him in when he goes to sell it for huge profits....If only as a token of respect and acknowledgement.
As a builder myself I can say that it does sting a bit when you see something you made & sold for a pittance bringing the owner or dealer double or triple what he paid. Makes you want to quit instrument building and get into instrument dealing, because that's obviously where the money is.
For the most part, we luthiers are not Harley Davidson or even West Coast choppers . We don't have carefully-adhered-to profit structuring or predictable production schedules. We don't say "get it out the door" just because the clock on the wall says it's time. We worry about every little aspect of the instruments we make in an effort to please the client. We string 'em up, then tear 'em down and fuss over them some more it until they're done right. I don't see this type of dedication going on in too many other industries.
Most builders us are into this work because we were called to it and we love it. We don't count every hour or every bit of materials or developement time that goes into our final product. The work is very personal, and so is the insult when someone sells your instrument you made specifically for them for a huge profit......Jamie http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[neal]

I dunno, if you feel like it, yeah, do it. #If not, don't. #I wouldn't unless it was the situation Darryl suggested. #

But....maybe it's the Xmas season that brings out the righteousness in folks. #Why not donate a healthy portion of the profits on the sale to your local food bank in Steve Gilchrist's name? #Let's face it, #few luthiers or players are on the Forbes list, but most of us have a roof and food and a few left over for some cheer.

[GVD]

neal Posted

...Why not donate a healthy portion of the profits on the sale to your local food bank in Steve Gilchrist's name? #Let's face it, #few luthiers or players are on the Forbes list, but most of us have a roof and food and a few left over for some cheer.

Well said Neal.

GVd

[Lee]

I'm not sure about other states but in PA used cars sold privately are taxed each time they change hands. The Guild of American Mandolin Luthiers hasn't been lobbying the right politicians!

[cutbait2]

i would speculate that all the Carmel ordered Gils have been delivered and now Steve is reaping the full benefit of his reputation as he no longer takes a deposit or sets a price but would take your name and when a mando is done you can take it or leave it for the next person......i know other hot builder's are doing this too, perhaps in a more limited fashion. i would have no problem selling such a mando for a profit and I would doubt the builder would care as it would just move his value up........

[fatt-dad]

Advertizing that it will sell for lots of money, but he'll give something back to the builder seems hollow. If you want to be benevalent, do it quietly. Advertizing your good intentions is too much for me.

Regarding the builder - I see it as a business deal. The buyer is asked for an up front deposit and is given a delivery schedule. At the time the deal is struck, the contract is formed. If the reputation of the builder goes up during the wait, good for the buyer. If the reputation of the builder goes down (or the builder quits/dies/gets thrown in jail/etc. then bad for the buyer. Presumably, all are grown up and have thought about these things in advance of forming the contract.

I saw that ad and thought, whew, how strange. That said, go ahead give the man some money - nothing wrong about being nice (unless you wear it on your sleeve).

f-d

[Philip Halcomb]

I don't think one should be obligated to do such a thing. Although, I WOULD do it myself. I know Jamie makes a reasonably priced mandolin, but I know that Steve G's mandolins don't go for pittance when he sells them. I spoke with Steve about a Model-5 before and I offered a very fat amount of cash and he turned it down, saying there are other places that I should look for a mando. He also never quoted a price, therefore I have no idea what to expect. He just mentioned that they resell in excess of 15Gs... So what? What's that have to do with a deal I'm trying to make with you. I guess he exepected me to say, ah yeah! I'll give you 15Gs right now for one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Right... Steve does make a killer mandolin, I've played several, loved them all. But for me there is a limit for a brand new instrument. It is sad that folks turn around and sell them for astronomical prices, but after all like Gruhn said a long time ago, "It's worth what someone's willing to pay for it.".

[Mandomusic]

FYI, Steve still has about two year's worth of orders to work through at Carmel.

Mark

[Nick Triesch]

Mr Wiens give me a break! #Think about it, #craftsman have been making items for years that go up in value. # #A few years back I sold an old Porsche 356 for $9500.00. #Now it's worth twice that five years later. #Thats life. #Good for the new owner!

[J. Mark Lane]

I agree with what most people have said -- generally speaking, if you order an instrument, and a builder delivers it at a specific price, and you can sell it for more later, good for you. #You are the one who funded the original purchase and construction. #You are the reason the instrument was built, and the reason the luthier is in business. #You took the risk. #Just as if you bought the stock of an up and coming company in its IPO...and the price it fetches later is your reward for a wise investment...and if the price your stock fetches later is high, then that means the company is valued highly, and its secondary offerings will fetch even more money for its own use.... #That's America, folks. #Personally, I love it.

Mark

[Crowder]

I think the whole concept of sharing profits with the luthier is silly. Luthiers enjoy both the risks and the benefits of being self-employed. They are free to run their business any way they please. Obviously when they were booking orders years in advance at fixed prices, they were negotiating a certain economic security for themselves which they are now enjoying. If they find that they "bid low" on those future sales, they'll learn from their mistakes and the ones that are good businesspeople will amend their policies. They also have the choice of returning deposits, not honoring their commitments, and risking that their reputation as a builder will overcome the damage to their reputation as a businessperson.

As mentioned above, the only reasonable way to share profits seems to be to use the luthier as part of the transaction and compensate him for the work and use of his reputation in the sale. When someone is paying $25K for a used instrument, it seems beneficial to both parties to work through the builder, who can inspect and set up the instrument and assure safe handling attendant to a sale.

Personally, it seems crazy to me to agree to purchase something at an unknown point in time and at an unknown price. There must be only a handful of luthiers who could get away with this.

[Jeff A]

I can't see how anyone loses if appreciation occurs. Sellers profit but so does the luthier's reputation and initial pricing, if the secondary market wants their product that badly. Also, sellers have a variety of reasons for selling, not just the profit motive. During the "multiyear" wait for a custom mandolin interests change, money might be short, or often the sale will finance another new instrument at the current market price.

The flip side, as was my case, is that I wanted a Kimble now. Will's list is closed. I think am on the list to get on the list. Maybe in 3 or 4 years. SternART, who let a good one go, thanks Arthur, made some bucks which will probably go toward a new mando. I am happy as clam with the Kimble. I'm guessing the price I paid will be less expensive than the new ones Will will be making in the future. Who knows. It really doesn't matter because appreciation is not why I wanted it.

Giving any of the profits back to the luthier is a personal decision based on the circumstances and the relationship. If I were a luthier, its not something I would count on as part of the transaction but as a special gesture.

[J. Wiens]

Oops! I stirred up the pot I guess...I'll take those comments as an unofficial welcome back to the board :-).
# # # Sorry guys, but I was just trying to give a builder's perspective on this topic. I know firsthand how many builders feel on this issue and so I figured I'd throw my .02 in for what it's worth.
# # #I certainly don't expect people to feel obligated to give the builder a cut of the price when they sell their instrument. If someone were to say "that's definitely how it should be" ....I wouldn't agree.
# #However, if a person makes a huge profit on a custom made instrument and feels a bit guilty about it, and feels like they should let the builder in on a bit of it ,then I think that's very kind and shows great respect for the builder's craft...I'm sorry, but as a builder I can only admire that.
# # As to my view of the personal nature of this craft or what each indivivual requires to get the job done, I guess I could sum it up with that ol' saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes. #It's hard to understand what it's like until you've done it...... Actually it's a funny thing, I'm trying to walk in mandocat's shoes right now and find out just what made him gag.*g* Sorry man........Jamie

[ronlane3]

Hmmmmm, he is CONSIDERING selling a matched pair of Gilchrists instruments and then bylines a note that he is giving the Luthier a piece of the profit.

Sounds a little crazy to me, although a very honorable suggestion. I have to agree that it probably better to do it off the record, since it is his choice what he does with his money. But if he has nothing better to do with the profit or the instruments, I would gladly accept either.

Also, I see nothing wrong with Steve taking the money. It's a good jester from a satisfied customer.

Don't forget the other part of this equation, he still has to find someone that will part with more than $50,000 for a matched pair of Steve's fine instruments. (upon second thought, McCoury might need a backup set of Gilchrists).

[Harry H]

Fellow Mandolineers,

Some of these posts contain rough words and rough thoughts,
the sort of thing that I am sorry to read on the Cafe.

For instance, it is certainly possible to disagree with Jamie Wiens' heart-felt position without being rude or visceral.

Everybody here feels passionately about
the mandolin or they wouldn't be part of this. But ugly talk
can turn a lot of people away from the Cafe.

Having said that, I think what fuels a lot of the emotion over this
topic is the 'green stuff', money, an original 'hot' topic.

I think everybody who builds a good mando would like to be able
to make a comfortable living, just like everybody who buys one would like to be able to get a good mando at a comfortable price.

A lot of people are mad that F mandos from four makers cost over $20K on the used market. But. that's the way it is, lots of Demand
and not enough Supply.

For example, the last #'A' Gilchrist in the classifieds went for
$14K in a day. There were six people on the waiting list, including
the original owner, who sold it to get the down payment on an
F Gilchrist (one he's still waiting for, by the way, three years later. Think maybe that Waiting List is stretching a bit?).

Some folks are mad at the guy in the classifieds who wants to give a percentage of his profit to Gilchrist, even though potential buyers (i.e., the few, actual 'real' buyers who can afford the double set
[not me]) might be interested in knowing about that courtesy to the maker, 'upfront'.

Another guy is upset that Gilchrist wouldn't sell him a mando
for less than market value. Can't blame him, really. Can't blame
Gilchrist, either.

One builder, Jamie (whose work is much admired and talked
about on the Builder forums), tells what it's like from a maker's perspective to put your soul into a mando and have some guy
'flip it to make money' instead of 'flipping open the case' to play
and enjoy his labor of love.

At the same time, many people write #knowingly about business models and contractual obligations. Can those same people tell you how many mando builders actually can make any kind of a living doing this; ten, twenty, thirty? Bet it's way less than
thirty!

In the final analysis (okay, my final analysis), it's fun to write about a hot topic, but maybe we should all just step back and try and re-examine what the other folks are saying before we blast some-body else off the post.

Harry Harris

[J. Mark Lane]

OK, Harry, perhaps you're right. I meant no harm, but I will go back and edit my post. Then, the only remnant of the apparently offensive statement will be your quoting of it in your post...unless you edit your post, too.
Mark

[Harry H]

Gosh, Mark, if I had the technical knowledge to know how to edit my post, I could be making as much money as a custom mandolin builder, right now!

Actually, I #really don't know how to edit the post at present, but.
if a New Yawk Atty can do it, surely a Texas Defender of the Unjustly Accused can likewise acomplish the same.

I remain your Grateful Sarvant, HH

[Nick Triesch]

Sorry Mr Weins. But this thread just ticked me off. It was ok hearing from cafe members talking about giving something back to the maker but it's a little wierd when a builder say's it's a good thing I think. Anyway I'm sure you make wonderful mandolins. Nick

[John Rosett]

you guys are all treading on thin ice.
how much does gibson get every time a loar sells?
john

[Harry H]

Okay J. Mark, I done edited my post.
I'll pay you as soon as the share-crop comes in.

HH

PS I used to play in a Band with one of Goldstein's clerks, called Los No. 2 Dinners.
I 'substituted in' for six months, in '85, while the lead player was in Deep Trouble with his Wife.
Blew two Celestions out of a 4x12 cab with a Boogie Mk IIB and a '58 strat. We was loud.

[mrbook]

I guess it would always be nice to receive a little money for something we did years ago without having to do any additional work. I wrote a couple books several years ago, and one that is out-of-print sometimes brings twice its original price or more on the used market. Would I take money if someone sent it? Sure. Do I deserve it? No. I'm just pleased that the value has gone up (at the moment, at least) rather than down, like most things. Since I'm also a used book dealer, I don't think authors deserve royalties on used books that are sold, nor does Garth deserve it on used CDs.

Looking at the ad in question, I'm not sure if the guy is selling - maybe just fishing to see how much money people will throw at him to get him to sell. I'll let others deal with that - I would leave that ad alone even if I had the money.

Reading many posts on the cafe, I see so many people getting the "instrument of their dreams" and then selling it a couple months later - I haven't always understood that, other than to chalk it up to human nature. Sometimes they are worth more, other times less, depending on what someone is willing to pay. If a maker's value increases, then the prices of their new instruments undoubtedly goes up - but they wouldn't get there without selling a few good instruments at lower prices when they started out.

A very few makers are very lucky that at least a few players are emotionally willing to pay almost any price for one of their instruments. Other builders, not on the "A" list, know that the instruments do not always sell thmselves.

[J. Mark Lane]

PS I used to play in a Band with one of Goldstein's clerks, called Los No. 2 Dinners.
I 'substituted in' for six months, in '85, while the lead player was in Deep Trouble with his Wife.
Blew two Celestions out of a 4x12 cab with a Boogie Mk IIB and a '58 strat. We was loud.

That's pretty funny, Harry. #Goldstein's really an old hippy. #He and I tried a case together in Amarillo about 12 years ago. #A couple of his clerks were involved. #It was kind of a big case (Dallas Morning News covered it with front page headlines every day for a month, and it was on the nightly news every night). #Gerry is a tremendous person, and a very good lawyer. #

Cheers,

mark

[kudzugypsy]

very good topic.

i too, was wondering about this when i read the gilchrist ad. we dont really know, it could have been a situation where steve DID do the guy a "favor" building a matched set, and the seller wants him to recieve just compensation?? we dont really know from the info given.

if you will surf over to the mandozine guest of the week discussions you will see in the interview with gilchrist that it does eat him that his mandos are being "fliped" for far more than he is getting. of course, those are mandos that people have been on years long waits for. the real winners are those that bought second hand from the original consigners years ago and are now sitting pretty. its the 2nd/3rd owners who are making the real killing with the price appreciation. i mean, look at the person who originally bought the Loar in 1923, he never saw the profit, it was the guy down the line somewhere. if you think about what gilchrist ACTUALLY recieved for his mandos in the 90's it was probably pathetic. what percent did Carmel take? if the mando was originally comissioned at $4500, Carmel took their cut (say 25%) then steve ends up with something like $3300.....WOW!!!

i think that years ago, none of these luthiers ever dreamed that their mandos would fetch these prices while they were living. i remember a few years ago when i saw a used nugget listed at $11,000. i said, man that is CRAZY! i had gotten mine for $2200 in 1990. but the market has proven that instruments are a great investment, and they have appreciated. luckily, these makers are still young and living and making instruments that will provide them a decent living / reward for their craftsmanship. the other side of the coin are artists of years ago who died penniless and whos work now fetches huge sums.

the top luthiers have just fixed this problem by not taking any more orders, and only offering finished instruments at market price. so, in the end, they achieve the present day market value.

[fatt-dad]

All I have to say to HarryH is we have a moderator.

Regarding Mr. Wiens, I want one of his mandolins - one day. . . . That said, I disagreed with some of his opinions, but took to heart one perspective. Wouldn't it be frustrating to work with a buyer through the entire building process and then see the finish product go onto the secondary market. I think there is a violation of trust that would frustrate the builder. While it is clearly "legal" and maybe even a builder should "expect" that this will happen at some point in their career, it has a way of taking the "life" out of the luthier's work.

f-d

[Nathan Sanders]

The original question was "should luthiers get a cut?" The answer is no. That would go against the very heart of free enterprise. Of course it is very nice if someone wants to share the profits with a luthier. That would be a personal decision. But, as previously stated, if I sell a mandolin and lose money, the luthier is not going to compensate me for my loss, nor should he. Risk is a fundamental principle of free enterprise.

Here's an idea. Perhaps luthiers could start a lease program whereby a person would lease an instrument on a monthly basis for 3 years. At the end of the 3 years, the buyer would have the option of making the balloon payment to keep the instrument or return it to the luthier and walk away. Of course the person might be liable for costs related to wear and tear and "mileage" on the instrument should they decide to return it. Luthiers could then clean up the returned instruments and resale them for whatever the market will allow. Sound like a familiar plan? Car dealers do it all the time.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Well, I think it was a nice gesture, but certainly not a required one.

Somebody here once wrote that we're not buying instruments so much as we're buying the right to be that instrument's caretaker for a number of years. As instruments open up in sound and become generally more sought after the price of becoming a caretaker will go up. And certainly, if I have a Gilcrest or a Hilburn or a Dudenbostle or a Loar and I take good care of it then I would excpect that receiving a profit when I sell it is my reward for being a good caretaker.

So it's certianly nice that the gentleman is giving some of the money back to Gilcrest, but I can't see that it's in any way morally required for him to do that.

[PaulD]

The concept of royalties would only apply if the item could be duplicated and a profit gained on sale of the duplicates. Then the artist should get royalties for profits gained on duplicates of his/her work (assuming he retained some rights to the object). So if Gilchrist were painting pictures of mandolins and sending them to a printer to be mass reproduced he should stand to gain some portion of each sale. Alternately, he could have Microsoft write the sales contract such that we were not buying the rights to his mandolin but merely "leasing" them for $15k while he retained ownership. He would have a right to subsequent profits. I assume that he is building a profit margin that he is comfortable with into the sales price of his instruments with no expectation of future profits.

It is an unfortunate fact in our capitalistic societies that celebreties are often paid much more than their contribution to society would warrant, and teachers, artisans, service workers, etc. are under-compensated. Not being a Garth Brooks fan, I would say that he is a perfect case in point! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif As consumers we collectively create this situation and collectively have the power to change it. I don't expect it to change in my or my children's lifetimes.

Paul Doubek

[ShaneJ]

Goldstein's really an old hippy. #He and I tried a case together in Amarillo about 12 years ago. #A couple of his clerks were involved. #It was kind of a big case (Dallas Morning News covered it with front page headlines every day for a month, and it was on the nightly news every night). #Gerry is a tremendous person, and a very good lawyer. #

Cheers,

mark
Has it been that long since the mad cow met the mad talk show host? (or was there another "media circus" case in Amarillo?)

[J. Mark Lane]

Has it been that long since the mad cow met the mad talk show host? #(or was there another "media circus" case in Amarillo?)
LOL. No, this case preceded that one by several years. There was actually a book written about it, by one of my clients. You can read about it here:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksea....1&itm=8 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0882821601&itm=8)

(Oops, I hope I didn't just commit a copyright violation <g>).

Mark

[Harry H]

Okay, I have definitely figured this whole royalty thing out!
Here it is, the Definitive Answer, the Way for Builders to Make Money in Perpetuity.

Beloved Builders and Makers, we here at Harry Harris Industries
(hereinafter referred to as HHI) will simply Copyright and Trademark your Celebrity Names and charge people for using Same, under the Strict Terms and Conditions of Our much Vaunted HHI '60/60' Contract.

Here's how the HHI '60/60' Contract works:
Under our Licensing Agreement, we will charge 10 cents every
time someone writes Your Name on the Cafe and 5 cents every
time someone reads Your Name on the Cafe.

The Beauty of the '60/60' Contract #
is the way the monies are disbursed:
HHI gets the first 60%, off the top. But don't worry, Celebrities,
you get 60% of the Rest of the Monies, with the negligible balance
going towards administration fees, like paying for Hospitality
Hostesses and 'Vitamin Powders' at the HHI #NAMM #Convention suites!

Now, I know you're all asking Yourselves,
Where do I Sign and how do I Agree to this Contract?
Why, you already have!
Simply by reading this far, you as Reader, or Writer. or
Celebrity Endorsee have agreed to this contract in Perpetuity!

Here's how it works for the Reader at Home.
Read the following list of Names:
Gilchrist, Kiminitzer, Dude (nicknames count, too), Heiden,
Apitius, Wiens (yes, you have to pay for Canadians!), Kimble,
Duff, Hilburn, Brentrup, Davis and Ellis.

Readers, you've just read the names
of 12 Celebrity Builders. At 5 cents a name, please remit
60 cents to:

HHI
Department '60/60'
2245 N. Main St.
Fort Worth, Texas 76106

Oh, as a nod towards local Banking Regulations,
please make out all checks and money orders to 'CASH'.

Thank you, this is going to work out just fine!

[J. Mark Lane]

OK, isn't there a tort for causing someone to spit coffee all over their computer keyboard?

Hey, Harry my Brother, you have clearly experienced that rare stroke of genius that occasionally catapults one of us out of the chains that bind us to This Honorable (but Miserable) Profession. In exchange for an understanding that I, J. Mark Lane, Esquire (or, as you Texans like to say, Attorney Lane), will, forever and always, be Counsel of Record for HHI (for a nominal fee of, say, 50% of all proceeds), you will receive a general release, discharging you for liability for the value of my now useless keyboard.

Onward and upward.

On a similarly irrelevant note... today, my office received a strange, brown package from a federal judge here in NY. The address (it was to me) was hand written and there was no postage. Hm. I made an associate open it, just in case it contained some kind of poison or something. In fact, it contained a hilarious note from the judge congratulating us on a recent settlement, and a pen, yes a pen, with the words "Settled! Fed. R. Civ. Proc. 1" engraved on it. Doncha just love the federal courts!? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Mark

[Harry H]

#In exchange for an understanding that I, J. Mark Lane, Esquire (or, as you Texans like to say, Attorney Lane), will, forever and always, be Counsel of Record for HHI (for a nominal fee of, say, 50% of all proceeds), you will receive a general release, discharging you for liability for the value of my now useless keyboard.

Attorney Lane,

You are taking more and more of my Share-Croppin' profits!

Are you maybe looking to get the HHI '50/50' Deal?
That's a completely different department, you know.

Hey, I sent you an email about Gerry's clerk and the old band,
Hope you got it.

HH..... call me 'Sixty/ Sixty'

[J. Mark Lane]

Just went and picked it up, Harry. I don't use that email account much any more. I just went and changed my Cafe profile to include my new email -- jmarklane@optonline.net.

Hilarious email. I'll write back later. Am being called to Dinner by The Wife now. Must comply. Resistance is futile. Will be assimilated. Etc.

Mark

[Mteresko]

And as tax season is fast approaching, I would like to announce the establishment of Save Our Underpaid Luthiers, or SOUL. We are now accepting any and all of your fine musical instrument donations, which you may use as a generous tax deduction! The proceeds from the sale of these instruments, less our modest operating costs, will be used to help struggling stringed instrument builders throughout North America.

Please send your unused or unwanted Gilchrists, Dudenbostels, etc. to:

SOUL
c/o Mike Teresko
1461 Park Ave
Emeryville, CA 94608

[sunburst]

As a builder, I say "yes". I am entitled to a cut when someone makes a proffit on a Gilchrist, Nugget, Monteleone, etc. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Seriously, I'd be happy if people were selling my instruments at a proffit, but only for a while. If I were to make the mistake of getting too back ordered and having to honor contracts that were in effect causing me to loose money, It would be my own fault.
There is no obligation on the part of the buyer to compensate the builder when he makes a profit, but there is an obligation on the part of the builder to himself to control his back order to avoid selling below market.

[Harry H]

Great idea, Mike.
You're on the right track!
Please remit 20 cents to HHI for use of Celebrity Builder Names.

HH

[Mteresko]

Harry, the check is in the mail!

[Brian Ray]

I would be happy to find myself in a position to where the profit from a mandolin sale made me feel guilty enough that, in order to purge said guilt, I would look to give back money to the builder. Has a slight communist ring to it...

[ronlane3]

Attorney Lane, Can you and I discuss a partnership to copyright "Celebrity Builder Names" so that we can collect from HHI60/60? With said names, we could call this partnership the LLI 50/50 (Lane/Lane Inc.)

Just a thought.

[futrconslr]

"As a builder myself I can say that it does sting a bit when you see something you made & sold for a pittance bringing the owner or dealer double or triple what he paid."

Sounds to me like your selling your product too cheap. #My understanding as to why Gilchrist 's mandolins were selling at huge profits is because of the wait. #You can pay 15k 2 years from now or 20 or so now. #Sounds like good marketing on Gilchrist's part. #Put you instrument in the hands of a couple of top players, make a limited number of instruments per year.........whatch the Kolas (isnt that aussie for dollars?)come rolling in. #

As a non builder....if you guys think you are not making enough on your instruments, raise your price to what the market will bear.

[futrconslr]

oh yeah......if someone wants to give some profits of a flipped instrument to the builder who am I to say they cant do that.....do I think I should be made to or that I have some moral obligation to do so? NO!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But I can certainly see why a builder would want that! LOL

[J. Mark Lane]

I'm with ya, Ron. Eventually, maybe they'd name a street after us. Lane Lane.

Mark

[futrconslr]

"you guys are all treading on thin ice.
how much does gibson get every time a loar sells?"

GOOD GOD MAN!!!! Edit that before Charlie or Big Joe see it!!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ronlane3]

Mark, There is a street named after me in Tulsa (okay well sort of "Lynn Lane")

[jasona]

The flip side, as was my case, is that I wanted a Kimble now. Will's list is closed. I think am on the list to get on the list. Maybe in 3 or 4 years. SternART, who let a good one go, thanks Arthur, made some bucks which will probably go toward a new mando. I am happy as clam with the Kimble. I'm guessing the price I paid will be less expensive than the new ones Will will be making in the future. Who knows. It really doesn't matter because appreciation is not why I wanted it.
Aw, MAN! That is one great mando you managed to get. Possibly the loudest I've ever heard too--it downright shouted my Ratcliff down in a duet--and that with Joe Craven banging on it! (Arthur: its much louder with my continued efforts to play louder myself. Oh, and a string change--that set of J75s never did it for me. Funny how these mandos respond to the way in which you play them.)

Color me green with envy! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif