Tunes in the "Other" Keys

[JonZ]

I am looking for bluegrass, and old-time, tunes commonly played in keys other than G, A, C, or D. I know one of Bill Monroe's inovations was playing in B, Bb, F, etc., but my cursory internet search didn't come up with any good resources.

Unusual minor keys would also be appreciated.

[Mike Bunting]

Do you mean instrumentals or songs?

[JonZ]

Do you mean instrumentals or songs?

Both.

[Markus]

Off the top of my head here are Bill Monroe instrumentals I play or am working up:

Jerusalem Ridge - A minor
Brown County Breakdown - E
Lonesome Moonlight Waltz - D minor
Northern White Clouds - E
Kentucky Mandolin - G minor

I know that if you search the Tabledit at mandozine, it lists what key things are in, along with the composer. I value that.

[Mike Bunting]

Wakefield's New Camptown Races in Bb
Southern Flavour in E as is Brown County Breakdown
Mississippi Waltz and Right On Right on are in F
Cheyenne is in Gm.
Songs are in whatever key works for the singer.

[Mandolin Mick]

Bill Monroe's:
My Last Days on Earth is in C#m
Cheyenne is in Gm
Right, Right On is in F
Jerusalem Ridge is in Am

How's that ... ?

[Mandolin Mick]

Flatt & Scruggs & the Foggy Mountain Boys sound like they're playing in keys like Ab, Bb, F, etc., but they tuned a half step up to sound more twangy. So, they played Foggy Mountain Breakdown in G but it sounds like Ab.

[JonZ]

I did check out the Tabledit files on Mandozine. There was nothing in B or Bb.

It puzzles me because I thought B and Bb were a big part of the "High Lonesome" sound. Is it just that Monroe took songs normally played in C, G, A, D and E, and transposed them?

[bingoccc]

At the risk of making a "newbie" comment. I'm am much more familiar with guitar. I view the key a song is written in as not more than a suggestion. Watch Hail, Hail Rock and Roll, they talk about Chuck Berry turning around during sets and telling the band to change key, on stage, in the middle of a song. On my Stevie Ray Vaughn - Albert King DVD, King turns to Stevie while they are playing and tells him to go to F#. Through most of that video they appear to be just watching each other for key changes. I DO NOT claim to be good at it. The chord scales come fairly easy. I think of songs as progressions. A good old I IV V three-chord rock and roll song (or blues or bluegrass...), key to be determined. Melody changes on the fly for me mean a capo but I am working on bettering my scales. I've got a long way to go but as I learn more and more the time is better and better spent. If I overstepped my newbie bound, I apologize. :redface:

[Mandolin Mick]

To those of us with perfect pitch, or at least working relative pitch, it's hard to hear songs in different keys than they were recorded because they sound wrong. It's true that rockers change keys, usually tuning down a half step for their vocals. However, when I was in Apple Core, my Beatles tribute band, we'd do the songs in the recorded keys like I'm Only Sleeping in Eb or She Said She Said in Bb, for example. They were recorded higher but slowed down in the studio for a dreamy feel. That made me flexible and versatile ... trust me ... ;)

[bingoccc]

Perfect pitch? I envy you more than you can know. Me, a knuckleball at best. I've had to hit the theory kind of hard because of my lack of an ear. I'm too old to say "someday......"

Looking at your sig reminds me that my brand new Kentucky KM 855 is (as befitting my newbie status) hanging in front of a speaker getting vibrated. :disbelief:

[Willie Poole]

I like playing in some "off" keys but I have to take pity on my bass player, some of those keys are hard for the bass to be played, my banjo player don`t like any of those "off" keys....We do some in B and Bb, a few in E, one in F because that is where my voice fits the songs...B need not be a high lonesome sound and some times G is, depends on way it is written....

[Mike Bunting]

I did check out the Tabledit files on Mandozine. There was nothing in B or Bb.

It puzzles me because I thought B and Bb were a big part of the "High Lonesome" sound. Is it just that Monroe took songs normally played in C, G, A, D and E, and transposed them?
Songs are "normally" played in a key that suits the singer. Bill Monroe sang in keys in which he could push his voice to its upper limits which created his style that some call the high lonesome sound.

[JonZ]

So which songs did the Bluegrass Boys do in B and Bb?

[Mike Bunting]

Listen to Bill Monroe.

[jazzman13]

If it's just a case of wanting to practise in other keys, you could always play your favourite fiddle tunes in another key... Try playing Fisher's Hornpipe in Ab (instead of D) for example...

[swampstomper]

So which songs did the Bluegrass Boys do in B and Bb?

Get out your mando, cue up your Bear Family box sets (you *do* have them all, don't you?), and play along. With Monroe there are occasional quarter-step problems due to tuning or recording equipment, but not the systematic 1/2-step sharp tuning often used by F&S to get more ping.

For a quick start, listen to the new Del McCoury tribute (http://www.delmccouryband.com/releases/old-memories-the-songs-of-bill-monroe/) project (free streaming on-line), he does the Monroe songs in original keys. This one includes Brakeman's Blues (B) for example. A high-lonesome song can be in a "lower" key if it uses a different part of the scale. One of the highest, lonesomest ever is "Close By" (also on the project) which is "only" in A.

A very well-known B-natural song is Mon's "Sitting on Top of the World", you can find his breaks transcribed in the new Joe Carr book and also over at Mandozine.

Have fun.

[baptist mando55]

You have to play inthe key that the singer needs for his voice. Instrumenteals or fiddle tunes can be played in any key some sound better in certain keys Some are eaiser to play in certain keys some are as easy in any key.Frank Wakefield could change keys on evey verse

[Jim Garber]

As far as old time tunes... check out the links to this tune-rich site below:

Tunes in Bb (http://slippery-hill.com/Bb/)

Tunes in F (http://slippery-hill.com/f/)

Milliner-Koken Collection Tunes (http://slippery-hill.com/M-K/) - scroll down to find the less common keys

[Markus]

I did check out the Tabledit files on Mandozine. There was nothing in B or Bb.

Searching under Artist for `Monroe' shows the following vocal tunes in B:

Nine Pound Hammer
Sitting On Top of the World

Search is odd ... plunk a different value in a different box and we find different results. Perhaps Murphy's law makes them easier for me to find than you.

I also see in my Todd Collings book:
I Am A Pilgrim - B
Whitehouse Blues - B

[JonZ]

Wow Jim, that is quite a site!

Thanks Markus.

[John McGann]

Doc Harris Hornpipe- 4 parts in Bb that'll keep you busy awhile ;)

[JeffD]

I view the key a song is written in as not more than a suggestion. Melody changes on the fly for me mean a capo but I am working on bettering my scales. :

While you are right, you are also missing out. I play many tunes in first position, with open strings. Changing key to something not a fifth or a fourth away entails either a capo or different fingerings. (In closed position melodies, of course, you just move the patterns up the neck.)

Anyway, the particular fingerings give particular emphasis, certain runs contain a bit of drama because they are all on the same string, or because you can use an open string below as a quick harmony and it will ring through the rest of the phrase. Stuff like that. If you change the fingerings for the new key, the notes may be right, but the feeling of the tune can be very very different.

The point is that a tune commonly played in an odd key can open up a world of new positional opportunites, new double stops, new runs, stuff you never thought of, and you can explore a different landscape, (one that paradoxically sits right on top of the one you had before).

[bingoccc]

While you are right, you are also missing out. I play many tunes in first position, with open strings. Changing key to something not a fifth or a fourth away entails either a capo or different fingerings. (In closed position melodies, of course, you just move the patterns up the neck.)

Anyway, the particular fingerings give particular emphasis, certain runs contain a bit of drama because they are all on the same string, or because you can use an open string below as a quick harmony and it will ring through the rest of the phrase. Stuff like that. If you change the fingerings for the new key, the notes may be right, but the feeling of the tune can be very very different.

The point is that a tune commonly played in an odd key can open up a world of new positional opportunites, new double stops, new runs, stuff you never thought of, and you can explore a different landscape, (one that paradoxically sits right on top of the one you had before).

You're right. I know I'm missing out! I'm a workin' on it!

[Raymond E.]

Evenin'....
Crossing The Cumberland...in Gm...and a goodun

[ralph johansson]

Doc Harris Hornpipe- 4 parts in Bb that'll keep you busy awhile ;)

My Bb favorite is High Level Hornpipe as played by Howdy Forrester. That's one of the tunes that made me take up the mandolin, because the string crossings are so awkward on guitar.

[ralph johansson]

I am looking for bluegrass, and old-time, tunes commonly played in keys other than G, A, C, or D. I know one of Bill Monroe's inovations was playing in B, Bb, F, etc., but my cursory internet search didn't come up with any good resources.

Unusual minor keys would also be appreciated.


Monroe songs/tunes in Bb: Blue Moon of Kentucky (Columbia version), Cheyenne, On My Way to the Old Home.

Ab: Wayfaring Stranger, second verse of Jericho Road (but very little mandolin!)

F#: Pretty Fair Maid (studio version), Little Community Church.

E: Kentucky Waltz (1970, plus live version 1956; the electric version is in F). Midnight on the Stormy Deep, Toy Heart (Decca version)

B: Numerous, e.g., Little Maggie, second version of Georgia Rose (the first was in C), Roll on Buddy, She´s Young, I Saw the Light

[ralph johansson]

Evenin'....
Crossing The Cumberland...in Gm...and a goodun

I've seen this mistake many times before. The title is Crossing the Cumberlands, the mountain range, not the river.
It's a banjo tune, and it's great fun translating the A part to the mandolin (in 3rd position, with a locked g).

[ralph johansson]

I like playing in some "off" keys but I have to take pity on my bass player, some of those keys are hard for the bass to be played, my banjo player don`t like any of those "off" keys....We do some in B and Bb, a few in E, one in F because that is where my voice fits the songs...B need not be a high lonesome sound and some times G is, depends on way it is written....


Don't like? A banjo player should be happy to get away from G forms (G tuning, with or without capo, in G,A,Bb,B,C) as Scuggs style in these forms is chock full of clichés. I expect a banjo player to be able to play in D, E, and F, out of dropped C or D tuning, suitably capoed, or G, without a capo.


Not sure, either, that I understand the expression "off keys". E.g., F and Bb, are arguably the most natural of all keys, on mandolin or violin.

For a really "off", or at least, unusal key, I recently found a Doyle Lawson gospel (I forget the title) on YouTube that starts in B and modulates to Db.

[Willie Poole]

The first band I ever played in tried to play every song in the same key as they had heard on a recording, then an argument started because some songs are recorded by different bands in a different key so that changed quite quickly....The leader asked me to sing a song and I named a Monroe song and said the key of A and he said that is a B song, I said maybe when you sing it but I sing it in A....Flatt and Scruggs at one time tuned one step up from standard and when trying to play in their same keys put us in either a sharp or flat key....Have you ever tried to play Pike County Breakdown in A sharp?

Willie

[mando-tech]

[QUOTE=Markus;985572]Off the top of my head here are Bill Monroe instrumentals I play or am working up:

Jerusalem Ridge - A minor
Brown County Breakdown - E
Lonesome Moonlight Waltz - D minor
Northern White Clouds - E
Kentucky Mandolin - G minor

I know that if you search the Tabledit at mandozine, it lists what key things are in, along with the composer. I value that.[/QUOTE
....you picked some hard ones, why didn't you start put with something like THE GOLD RUSH, ROANEOAK, or BILL'S DREAM
***correction : LONESOME MOONLIGHT WALTZ is not in Dm, it is in the key of (F) .

[mando-tech]

The first band I ever played in tried to play every song in the same key as they had heard on a recording, then an argument started because some songs are recorded by different bands in a different key so that changed quite quickly....The leader asked me to sing a song and I named a Monroe song and said the key of A and he said that is a B song, I said maybe when you sing it but I sing it in A....Flatt and Scruggs at one time tuned one step up from standard and when trying to play in their same keys put us in either a sharp or flat key....Have you ever tried to play Pike County Breakdown in A sharp?

Willie
...WRONG about F&S playing "one step" up, they played "one-half step" up sometimes ! If you are ever in a situation where you can get the musicians to agree to it, have them to play FOGGY MT BREAKDOWN in Ab, and see how much of an edge it will put on it ? No need to tune high, just capo up banjo and guitar, the mandolin and bass players should be able to play it in Ab, the fiddle might need to retune.

[CarlM]

Daley's Reel is a cool tune in B flat. And Herschel Sizemore wrote Rebecca in B flat so he would have a tune to play on the mandolin in that key.

[Jim Garber]

....you picked some hard ones, why didn't you start put with something like THE GOLD RUSH, ROANEOAK, or BILL'S DREAM
***correction : LONESOME MOONLIGHT WALTZ is not in Dm, it is in the key of (F) .

Actually the A part starts in Dm and then modulates to F. The bridge is in F then goes back to the Dm (like the A part). Dm is the relative minor of F. In any case, it is a beautiful tune.

[ralph johansson]

----

[ralph johansson]

The first band I ever played in tried to play every song in the same key as they had heard on a recording, then an argument started because some songs are recorded by different bands in a different key so that changed quite quickly....The leader asked me to sing a song and I named a Monroe song and said the key of A and he said that is a B song, I said maybe when you sing it but I sing it in A....Flatt and Scruggs at one time tuned one step up from standard and when trying to play in their same keys put us in either a sharp or flat key....Have you ever tried to play Pike County Breakdown in A sharp?

Willie

A sharp! - I'd hate to see that in notation (10 sharps). It sits very nicely in Bb, but you wouldn't get the effect that Monroe achieves on the original recording by alternating (as I hear it) between open position and playing off of a chop chord form.

[allenhopkins]

...Dm is the relative minor of F. In any case, it is a beautiful tune.

Same one-flat key signature -- that is, if you're working from sheet music (http://abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/mirror/MosheBraner/20010226/0005), but who is?

[Mark Gunter]

Same one-flat key signature -- that is, if you're working from sheet music (http://abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/mirror/MosheBraner/20010226/0005), but who is?

Happens a lot I think, as in Wayfaring Stranger I play it in Bm because I like my vocal better there, my bass player tells another guitar buddy it's in D, I assume because the key signature would be D, though we don't use sheet music.

[Jim Garber]

Happens a lot I think, as in Wayfaring Stranger I play it in Bm because I like my vocal better there, my bass player tells another guitar buddy it's in D, I assume because the key signature would be D, though we don't use sheet music.

B minor is not D, just because they both have two sharps in the key signature. Funny that the bass player would say that since he would play the bass notes for a B minor chord different from a D chord.