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joshrieck
Oct-22-2011, 7:37pm
Hello everyone. Long time reader, first time poster.

I have a Harwood mandolin in the shop that I'm trying to find info on, especially what it may be worth. After some searching online I've not been able to find one like it, mostly I see bowl backs and harp guitars.


Any help would be greatly appreciated!
7748877487

barney 59
Oct-22-2011, 9:48pm
Never saw one like that. Some Regals had that basic body style and some that were attributed to Larson but the ones I have seen were flat, not arched. Is the back arched as well?( Or is this an illusion caused by the light?) Does it say Harwood NY anywhere? I don't know the significance of that but the William Jenkens Co was from Kansas and made or distributed Harwoods and then some say "Harwood NY". That is a really sweet looking mandolin that is going to excite some interest here. You should post more pictures! No idea what it's value is but I think it is really an uncommon mandolin and as such maybe worth getting it properly appraised. I've had some experiance with Harwood guitars and they were really well made.

delsbrother
Oct-23-2011, 2:48am
Wow. That one is a head-scratcher.

brunello97
Oct-23-2011, 7:44am
I've never seen one of these with a Harwood label. I was under the growing assumption that Harwood made all their own instruments, but maybe that wasn't necessarily true. (This is a "Harwood" thread here so it would be ideal of these conversations could somehow be merged.)

For comparison I've attached three versions of this body style I have in my files: two noted as Regal made, one for Montgomery Wards. The other is a Larson-made mandola with a Bruno label.

Jake Wildwood has had a couple of these Regal made versions, if I recall. Looking forward to the release of the Centerstream book on the Regal company. I hope it fills in a lot of blanks.

Mick

MikeEdgerton
Oct-23-2011, 8:22am
THis design was patented by Regal and is referenced in the book Washburn Prewar instrument styles (http://www.amazon.com/Washburn-Prewar-Instrument-Styles-Pleijsier/dp/157424227X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319375331&sr=8-1). In Gruhn's book Acoustic Guitars and Other Fretted Instruments (http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Guitars-Other-Fretted-Instruments/dp/0879302402/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319375445&sr=1-2) there is an image of one of these that was built by the Larson Brothers. I assume that Regal may have had the Larson mandolins built as a high end offering. They were never labeled as far as I could see. Harwood was a builder that built some fine instruments. Frank Ford has likened their guitars to the quality of similar Martin's of the era. The musical instrument business has always been one where people farmed out building instruments and had them labled. This mandolin wasn't built by Harwood. It was most likely built by Regal, the same as the similar Bruno mandola listed above. I'm also wondering what the actual scale is as it looks just like the Bruno labeled/Regal built mandola above.

Jim Garber
Oct-23-2011, 9:05am
I say Barney and others were right on the Regal attribution. Also, I may be wrong on this, but I think, initially, Harwood may have been a maker in his/its own right (situated in New York City) but later on was a brand name of the Jenkins Music Company of Kansas City (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?38906-Harwood-mandolins-and-guitars&highlight=harwood).

FWIW Mike Holmes/Mugwumps has Harwood as a Jenkins brand name from 1885 on with no mention of a prior incarnation as an independent maker. Likely Harwoods were built by other makers for Jenkins even in the early days, including, possibly Martin (hence the quality comparison).

barney 59
Oct-23-2011, 12:35pm
It looks very similar to the Larson attributed "Bruno". How did those guys working in what has been said to be a two man shop build so many instruments with so many different (and really different, like the above mandolin) body styles and some with very intricate and complicated embellishments--It defies logic. I think some instruments are getting attributed to Larson because they were really well made but unlabeled --"so it must be Larson". If I were a builder in those days I think that it is very likely that I would be copying Larson's, at least to some degree.
Martin kept very thorough records, they would probably know if they produced "Harwood" labeled instruments. Someone should ask them. If Harwood was a person he would be portable,he could have moved to Kansas because of a job opportunity.

Paul Hostetter
Oct-23-2011, 2:15pm
Read this (http://www.harpguitars.net/history/harwood.htm) and this (http://uniqueguitar.blogspot.com/2009/09/harwood-guitars.html). It's a safe bet there was no maker called Harwood, but beyond that...

delsbrother
Oct-23-2011, 3:26pm
I don't know; there was some evidence (in the other Harwood thread) that they had a factory at one point.

MikeEdgerton
Oct-23-2011, 3:34pm
...Martin kept very thorough records, they would probably know if they produced "Harwood" labeled instruments. Someone should ask them....

From the harp guitar link Paul provided "Frank Ford, who has examined some of the parlor guitars, believes that they are nearly comparable to Martin quality (but not made by Martin)."

Gruhn doesn't list Harwood as an "other brand" manufactured by Martin but he does list ukes manufactured for Jenkins in Kansas City. Frank would probably recognize them as martins if they were. The Wurlitzer labeled Martins were recognizable as Martins.

brunello97
Oct-23-2011, 7:09pm
Here is the other thread going on about Harwood instruments which builds on Greg's Harp Guitar site and pushes deeper into the har-wood:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?38906-Harwood-mandolins-and-guitars&highlight=Harwood

(I see Jim's "Jenkins" thread already links to this..)

I have a Harwood bowlback that looks like none-other (as do some other examples.) It has a mahogany bowl, believe it or not, but has a top crack that needs repair before getting playable so I can't speak about its sound. It is curious enough in its appointments to make the usual suspects suspect as to attribution. I'll get some pictures together. It is nothing fancy but quite odd.

Paul, I did indeed misspeak. My earlier assumption was based on the relationship to Jenkins & co. and their possible manufacture of some of the instruments they may have sold under different labels, not on 'Harwood' producing for themselves. The NY Harwoods are a curious clue in the mystery.

Mike, right now I am dreaming that the upcoming Regal book is going to answer all our questions. But I felt that way in advance of Bob Hartmann's book on the Larsons…

Mick

joshrieck
Oct-24-2011, 6:31pm
Thanks for all the reply's, this Harwood thing is quite the mystery. I live very near the National Music Museum in South Dakota, this may require a little research trip on my part.

I did some more poking around on the instrument, thanks to my handy goose neck webcam I was able to see a date handwritten on behind the sole top brace (which is right under where the bridge is supposed to be, never seen that before) which reads Aug 11, 1915. In addition to that there are two identical stamps reading "Nicola Turturro's Music Store 105 S 4th Ave Mt. Vernon, NY. There is also one little bit of text that isn't legible on either stamp but it looks to me like it may be "mfg." I can't be sure though. I see Turturro was a maker in his own right, I wonder what the connection is there. Mugwumps has an interesting article about the Turturro Turnover.

There are patent dates on the tailpiece and I just searched Google patents for it but didn't find it, go search for mandolin patents though, there is some amazing stuff including a mandolin attachment for a guitar, wow.

Anyway, to answer some questions. The back is flat and the top is arched, back and sides are rosewood. The top is bookmatched but the seam is about an inch off center. The scale length is 13 1/16 or 332 mm. And as to Frank Ford's point, the construction of this instrument is beautiful, not a spot of glue, the blocks are nicely shaped and the way the mahogany linings are beveled at the spruce blocks look is quite nice.

This instrument is in beautiful condition except for some small rib cracks by the tailblock and two back cracks, one on either side of the tailblock running about 2/3 the way up the back.

And here are a couple more pics for the curious.

Cheers! 775347753577536

Jim Garber
Oct-24-2011, 7:56pm
Nicola Turturro was a maker who may or may not have some connection to the Calace family in Naples. There was some rumor going around that he was Raffaele's brother and they had some fight and he came to American and changed his last name. I am not so sure of that, tho he did make some oddball instruments, like that turnover uke/mandolin. I actually owned one -- not much of either instrument but certainly a conversation piece. He also made a mandolira which might connect him directly to the Calaces.

Oops! I did see that Mugwumps tells more of this story. BTW I did not know that Turturro had a store up in Mt Vernon which is in the same county I currently live in. I have a feeling that it was a music store and he ordered the OP's instrument wholesale in order to sell in the store.

joshrieck
Oct-24-2011, 8:24pm
Pardon my ignorance, the OP's?

BradKlein
Oct-24-2011, 8:29pm
Original Poster. You!

joshrieck
Oct-24-2011, 8:48pm
Ahh... right, as I said pardon my ignorance.

brunello97
Oct-24-2011, 9:20pm
In addition to that there are two identical stamps reading "Nicola Turturro's Music Store 105 S 4th Ave Mt. Vernon, NY. ….. 775347753577536

Wait a minute. Where are the 'Turturro' stamps located? Inside or outside the instrument? I can't quite tell from the photos.

Thanks,

Mick

MikeEdgerton
Oct-24-2011, 9:47pm
I can pretty much guarantee that puppy was built in Chicago. The only question is if it was built by Regal or built by the Larsons. It was a patented design. It appears that this one might mate up well with the matching though not branded the same mandola listed above. The mandola is said to have been built by the Larsons. If that's true then this would have been built by the same builder. Too many features are the same. To this point nobody has talked value. If it's Larson built it's worth more hundreds than if it was built by Regal but we are still talking hundreds, not thousands of dollars.

Paul Hostetter
Oct-25-2011, 1:20am
Very tidy construction for Regal.

joshrieck
Oct-25-2011, 6:52pm
The stamps are on the inside of the top behind the brace which lies under the bridge.

Thanks for all your help here, I am leaning toward the Larson attribution because of the mandola and quality of workmanship. Thank you Mike for the mention of value, I don't think my customer wants to sell it (it was his Grandfathers) but I wanted to have a good idea of what I was working on before proceeding with the repairs.

Jake Wildwood
Oct-30-2011, 5:15pm
I doubt this is a Regal... this looks like a Larson-made instrument. The interior does NOT comply with the numerous Regal makes I've worked on and for that matter, all the Regal-made arched-top instruments of this design I've seen in person (3 now so far) all had arched backs as well. Note some other inconsistencies -- the fact that the lower body is wider in comparison to the upper bout area than the Regals and the scroll is lighter, taller, and has more curve than the Regals (which were all apparently made in the same molds as they're quite consistent).

Anyhow, my $0.02 is that this is not a Regal make. Having owned 2 of the 3 arched-top reverse-scroll Regals I've had and worked on them inside and out, I can say that with some certainty.

joshrieck
Nov-03-2011, 8:49pm
The verdict is in... its been positively ID'd as a Larson for anyone who was curious.

Thanks for all the replies.

Jim Garber
Nov-04-2011, 9:24am
Just curious... who made the definitive designation?

barney 59
Nov-04-2011, 3:48pm
I'd like to know that as well. As far as guitars go there is a very short list of individuals that are qualified to make that determination. I know of three/five tops,there are probably a few more but not very many. The list is probably shorter for mandolins.
What I tend to find is someone has something that they can't identify it's nicely made so,well it MUST be a Larson!

Jim Garber
Nov-04-2011, 4:13pm
Yes, the Larson's were a mystery. Relatively egoless luthiers who found no need to put their names on their instruments. At least they gave us something to talk about on these forums. As Barney notes: I think even the experts can only make educated guesses as to whether it is Larson made.

brunello97
Nov-04-2011, 6:39pm
Barney, I thought I was the 'Doubting Thomas' about Larson attributions ;)

Mick

barney 59
Nov-04-2011, 9:11pm
I never read the Hartman book so maybe I'm a little out of it but my understanding is that there were these two guys and they built all of these instruments. If it was only a two man shop,without a bunch of other hired labor they put out a tremendous body of work if you only include the unquestionable surviving Larson made instruments. Just counting those instruments, to me, it seems an almost impossible quantity,but they did for sure pull it off. Add to that the variety of styles that they made --mandolins flat top and bowls and carved top, guitars in various sizes and styles up to gigantic,harp guitars with different body styles.--- and then all of a sudden there is something that is absolutely a Regal patented design but better than most Regal's -- so it gets credited to Larson? I have seen some very nice presentation grade Regal parlor guitars. Were they made at Regal or did they farm them out? It's possible that Larson did special work for Regal and it's also possible that Regal could have had made it themselves. Were there other small shop, lost and forgotten about builders with Larson's skill? Why not?
Vintage Guitar's price guide once published that Stetson's were Larson made where the truth was that some Stetson's were Larson made. This added quite a few instruments to the Larson pile. Later editions of the Price guide corrected that error but not before the rumor spread. Who made the others? Later Larson began their Euphonon line and their Prairie State line. These guitars were absolutely beautiful both physically and sonically and, by the way, they are just as rare as one would expect for something that good coming out of a two man shop. Included in building instruments was running the business--so ok, they didn't sleep for 40 years and never took time off --but still ----

joshrieck
Nov-05-2011, 8:48pm
Bob Hartman did a formal appraisal of the instrument and I may say its good news.

MikeEdgerton
Nov-05-2011, 10:35pm
I suspect that the reverse scroll Larsen made instruments were commissioned by the Regal folks to be sold as a top end of their line of mandolins. It doesn't make sense that the patented body style was being imitated in the same town where the patent holder was located.

Patent D46366 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=YMhqAAAAEBAJ&printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false)

MikeEdgerton
Nov-14-2011, 9:40pm
Far be it from me to question the Larson experts but Bob Carlin's new Regal book (http://www.amazon.com/Regal-Musical-Instruments-Bob-Carlin/dp/1574242733/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321324783&sr=8-1) has a few Harwood references for mandolins built by Regal, as well as some high end reverse scroll models with other brand names (not Harwood) that I always assumed were Larson built that are being touted as Regal built. I'm not all the way through the book yet but I have yet too find a Larson connection. That doesn't mean it's not there. This book answers some other questions though like why the same inlay was used by different manufacturers. This is great reading and a wonderful resource.

brunello97
Nov-14-2011, 10:20pm
Thanks for the reminder, Mike, about the Regal book. I just ordered it and look forward to reading it.

Mick

Jim Garber
Nov-14-2011, 10:25pm
I had a nice conversation with Bob Carlin at the Philadelphia Guitar Show on Saturday. It is a wonderful book, tho I had ordered it already from Elderly so I didn't buy it directly from Bob. I look fwd to getting it by the weekend.

joshrieck
Nov-15-2011, 8:45am
I can't help but notice the patent and the Regal mando's posted earlier in the thread all have 2 points and the Harwood and Bruno mandola have 3. Is that enough of a change for it to be outside the original patent?

Just to be clear, I have no real interest in this being a Larson or Regal, though I may have jumped to the Larson attribution a little early out of excitement. I am just going with the word of someone who I believe to know more on the subject than I do. When I contacted Bob, he asked some specific questions and for some additional photos that led him to believe the instrument to be Larson made. I do understand and appreciate the skepticism though.

Glad to hear the Regal book is good, I'll have to check that out, as well as the Larson book.

barney 59
Nov-15-2011, 11:54pm
Far be it from me to question the Larson experts but Bob Carlin's new Regal book (http://www.amazon.com/Regal-Musical-Instruments-Bob-Carlin/dp/1574242733/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321324783&sr=8-1) has a few Harwood references for mandolins built by Regal, as well as some high end reverse scroll models with other brand names (not Harwood) that I always assumed were Larson built that are being touted as Regal built. I'm not all the way through the book yet but I have yet too find a Larson connection. That doesn't mean it's not there. This book answers some other questions though like why the same inlay was used by different manufacturers. This is great reading and a wonderful resource.

OK so your reading the book. Maybe you came upon some reference to Regals made in Indiana. I have had a couple of those guitars and I have seen a mandolin. These were wonderfully built instruments. The guitars were built under top tension with a unique bracing system and not the same as Larsons I have seen. They weigh practically nothing! The mandolin that I saw was an extremely fancy bowl back. They are labeled "The Regal" "Emil Wulschner and Sons" Indianapolis, Indiana. What information I have found is that they were produced from about 1885 to maybe 1905 but production may have actually stopped before that with the death of the father. The company was purchased around 1905 or 06 and moved to Chicago and became Regal Instruments. Emil Wulshner and Sons pretty much predates Larson Bros. as a manufacturer but in Bob Hartman's Larson Registry under "Other Brands" Bob Hartman submitted both a guitar and mandolin made by Regal of Indiana with the assumption that these were being attributed to Larson Bros. The Wulshner Regals that I had(still have one) didn't have much in common with Larsons I've seen other than the fact that they were really skilfully made. I do think that some things get credited to Larson Bros that maybe were made by others and by the people that are considered experts.

Pete Summers
Nov-16-2011, 12:38am
For what it's worth, I had a similar flat top with this reverse scroll shape 30 years ago, labeled "Washington" which I believe was a brand marketed by Jenkins in KC.

MikeEdgerton
Nov-16-2011, 5:15am
OK so your reading the book. Maybe you came upon some reference to Regals made in Indiana. I have had a couple of those guitars and I have seen a mandolin. These were wonderfully built instruments. The guitars were built under top tension with a unique bracing system and not the same as Larsons I have seen. They weigh practically nothing! The mandolin that I saw was an extremely fancy bowl back. They are labeled "The Regal" "Emil Wulschner and Sons" Indianapolis, Indiana. What information I have found is that they were produced from about 1885 to maybe 1905 but production may have actually stopped before that with the death of the father. The company was purchased around 1905 or 06 and moved to Chicago and became Regal Instruments. Emil Wulshner and Sons pretty much predates Larson Bros. as a manufacturer but in Bob Hartman's Larson Registry under "Other Brands" Bob Hartman submitted both a guitar and mandolin made by Regal of Indiana with the assumption that these were being attributed to Larson Bros. The Wulshner Regals that I had(still have one) didn't have much in common with Larsons I've seen other than the fact that they were really skilfully made. I do think that some things get credited to Larson Bros that maybe were made by others and by the people that are considered experts.

Barney, buy the book. This is covered in some detail complete with dates of death and sale of propery. I'm not going to argue with Mr. Hartman but the Indianapolis connection to the Larson's is a real stretch. The Chicago connection I could accept as the Chicago builders seemed to have a trade going within a trade and did a lot of horse trading and building for each other. After reading some of this book I'm making the assumption that the nicer Regal instruments could very well have come out of the Regal shop as it appears they made a concentrated effort at one point to have a higher end product. The connection between Indianapolis Regals and Chicago Regals is in name only.

By the way, after reading this far I'm kind of wishing I had kept the Wulschner Regal mandolin that I owned several years ago.

MikeEdgerton
Nov-16-2011, 5:16am
For what it's worth, I had a similar flat top with this reverse scroll shape 30 years ago, labeled "Washington" which I believe was a brand marketed by Jenkins in KC.

I don't have the book in front of me but the brand names associated with Regal and Jenkins is covered. These were sold under many brand names but built by Regal.

Jim Garber
Nov-16-2011, 9:42am
For what it's worth, I had a similar flat top with this reverse scroll shape 30 years ago, labeled "Washington" which I believe was a brand marketed by Jenkins in KC.

That same flattop reverse scroll mandolin was marketed under a number of names, my favorite being Guydyu -- I think that was sold by Lyon & Healy. I also think they sold these as wholesale lots so stores could put on their own labels.

farmerjones
Nov-16-2011, 10:25am
There's a regional interest in Harwood violins down river from the OP. (Burt Cnty, Neb. home of Bob Walters & Manona Cnty. Ia. home of Dwight 'Red' Lamb)
I was hoping to glean something new from this this thread. Definately intesting, but it seems there is a departure at the band name of Harwood -Jenkins Music Co. KC. Nowhere did i read any of these luthiers were building violins too, or did i miss it?
Lots of mid-range (and less)violins built a hundred years ago. We're thinking Jenkins just bought a bunch of trade fiddles from Marknerkirchen, and labeled them Harwood, and that was that. Some are good some are better. But any additional assistance is appreciated here as well. Thanks for everything i've learned so far. FJ

MikeEdgerton
Nov-16-2011, 11:36am
I can't help but notice the patent and the Regal mando's posted earlier in the thread all have 2 points and the Harwood and Bruno mandola have 3. Is that enough of a change for it to be outside the original patent?

Just to be clear, I have no real interest in this being a Larson or Regal, though I may have jumped to the Larson attribution a little early out of excitement. I am just going with the word of someone who I believe to know more on the subject than I do. When I contacted Bob, he asked some specific questions and for some additional photos that led him to believe the instrument to be Larson made. I do understand and appreciate the skepticism though.

Glad to hear the Regal book is good, I'll have to check that out, as well as the Larson book.

The Regal book speaks about these as the "modified Kordick design". Frank Kordick, the president of Regal filed the patent for the design.

barney 59
Nov-16-2011, 4:32pm
Oh I like that, A "Modified Kordick" sounds so much better than "reverse scroll"!
"Could you build me an F-5 with a modified kordick?" I'd love to say that to a builder sometime!

brunello97
Nov-16-2011, 6:12pm
Oh I like that, A "Modified Kordick" sounds so much better than "reverse scroll"!
"Could you build me an F-5 with a modified kordick?" I'd love to say that to a builder sometime!

I agree. I think Regal ran into some copyright issues when they tried to patent the design as "Papa Smurf". Time now to build "Modified Kordick" into the mando-patois.

Mick

barney 59
Nov-17-2011, 4:21am
Before the kordick was modified what was it?

MikeEdgerton
Nov-17-2011, 9:15am
It was the Kordick designed mandolin shown in this (http://www.google.com/patents?id=YMhqAAAAEBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=D46366&hl=en&ei=phbFTum4IuXh0QHj26SLDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA) patent.

joshrieck
Nov-17-2011, 1:09pm
There's a regional interest in Harwood violins down river from the OP. (Burt Cnty, Neb. home of Bob Walters & Manona Cnty. Ia. home of Dwight 'Red' Lamb)

I am studying Missouri Valley fiddle with a guy who plays with Dwight Lamb on a regular basis. I understand he has a Harwood fiddle and knows some other folks that have them too.

brunello97
Nov-17-2011, 1:58pm
What are the distinguishing features of 'Missouri Valley Fiddle'?

Harwood is growing more and more interesting to me as this (and other) conversations go on.

Mick

farmerjones
Nov-17-2011, 4:48pm
What's Mo. Valley Fiddling? I'm glad you asked.
It sort of, somehow, centers around the late "Uncle" Bob Walters, of Tecamah, Ne. That's in Burt County. As in Burt County Breakdown. When Dwight Lamb was a teenager he sought Mr. Walters. Dwight still lives across the river in Ia.
One of the cornerstone players of the style was Cyril Stinnett. The link is to a collection of Cyril's playing recorded by Dwight Lamb.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Farmerjonz

BTW i own a Harwood violin, with a one piece back. It's not the best fiddle in the world, but it was intended to be a better violin. Like everything, it's in the operator.

joshrieck, i'll bet I know the fellow. He helped organised the Newton Hills Fest. But his name escapes me. I'll bet we meet up sometime. I missed Yankton this year.

joshrieck
Nov-18-2011, 11:37am
Farmerjones, its Bill Peterson. BTW I'm on the Friends of Traditional Music board now and am helping with the fest. This was the first year I made it to Yankton but I'll be going back.
Good to find a local on here!