cheap 4 track cassette

[John Rosett]

i'm gearing up to make a cd, and i want to buy an inexpensive 4-track cassette to record scratch versions of the songs. i don't have much money, so i'm looking at stuff like the tascam portastudio 02, which is $150., and the comparable fostex (can't remember the model).
i'm going to be recording a variety of stuff, with acoustic and electric instruments, vocals, drums, etc.
i'm completely new to home recording, so i could use all the advice i can get.
thanks, john

[mrbook]

I bought the 02 when it was $250 and thought it was fine. You can do two tracks at once, which I don't think you can do on the Fostex, but it doesn't bounce tracks as far as I can tell, so you are limited to four. I still like tape (I'll admit to being a dinosaur), and prices are going down. You might also pick up an even better model at a cheap price on ebay.

[handpicked]

Go on ebay and track several Tascam 424mkII's...I picked one up for 135 bucks recently and is everything you would want. #I missed one once (before I bought mine) that went for under 100 bucks, too. #It's a buyer's market for used cassette 4-tracks. #There is no need to buy a new one...used Tascam on Ebay is the way to go...also, check out homerecording.com for a mandocafe type discussion group devoted to the subject...and will even offer the ol' skool home studio cats' advice on what to buy.

Here's a link

for ebay Tascam 424mkII (http://search.ebay.com/tascam-424-mkII_W0QQfromZR8QQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1)

p.s. I'm not selling mine...no financial interest here...

[ShaneJ]

I'd suggest using Audacity (free recording software) on your computer for the scratch tracks.

[Spruce]

First of all, subscribe now to TapeOp Magazine (http://tapeop.com/), the only magazine that encourages the home recordist using 4-track cassette machines, or any machines for that matter, either digital or analog...

Go to the link and click on "subscribe"...
It's free! #It's one of the great resources for the home recordist, IMHO, and the price is right, which sounds like it will fit into your budget... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

OK, now for the stuff that may not fit into your budget...

Why do you want to make demos of the songs you're going to record? #So that you can go into a "real" studio and lay down the 4-track demos onto tape, and then replace your parts track-by-track? How much is that gonna cost?

My point is this.

In this day and age of cheap high-quality recording, "demos" are kind of a waste of time, energy, and money, and are a bit obsolete.
You can set up a very high quality studio these days for not a lot of money, and certainly for the same money you would spend going into a "real" studio to record your stuff...

Personally, I'd steer as far as you can away from a computer-based system. #
That's my bias, but one that I plan on sticking to for quite some time in the forseeable future. #

I can't even tell you how many times I've gone to do sessions at a ProTools studio and had stuff go south, etc....
Again, that's my prejudice, and you'll have a lot of others coming on here and extolling their virtues and that's great for them...
Just not for me...yet.

I'd therefore recommend looking for a used Tascam DA38 with low hours on it, a small Mackie mixing board, a Symetrix SX202 mic pre (the Mackie pres will work in a pinch), a couple good cheap mics and a stand, a set of headphones, a couple powered monitors (your stereo can work in a pinch), and get to work.

The above can be had for 5-600.00 or less (folks are dumping DA38s in order to get into a computer-based system), but will give you album-quality results for years and years to come. #
The DA38s record onto Hi-8 tapes (3 bucks each for almost 2 hours of recording time onto 8 tracks--what a bargain!), which you can send to friends with DA38s (like me and a few others I know) for pen-paling and mixing help...

The above is a great little system, is portable, requires no learning curve before you're recording your first tracks (the DA38 is like running a cassette machine--push "record" and go), and is a very durable system that will give you years of use...

[John Rosett]

bruce-
thanks for the good advice. i just subscribed to tapeop. the rest is a little too much for the old budget right now, although the future always looks bright to a guy like me.
my main motivation for wanting a 4-track cassette is for my own education. all of my recording experience is in situations where i'm playing and someone else is doing all the recording. alot of my songs are still in the "needs work" stage, and i want to be able to put down guitar and bass tracks and then "develop" the rest. i think that i could work up quite a bit of good material this winter by myself with the help of an inexpensive tool like a cassette 4-track, then, maybe i'll be able to afford to follow your advice on the rest. i do think that self-production would be the best way for me to go. i even have an old trailer that i could set it up in!
thanks, john

[Spruce]

"my main motivation for wanting a 4-track cassette is for my own education."

Everyone should have a 4-track cassette machine kicking around...
They can actually sound great, if not better than a high-end digital recorder on certain things. #Like kick drums...

For inspiration, get ahold of The Latin Playboys (http://desires.com/1.3/Music/docs/playboys.html) first recording...
It's all done on a 4-track cassette machine, and sounds fabulous...

Keep in mind that you can, at a later date, dump your 4-track recordings onto a 16-track digital system (or whatever) and, using your fleshed-out tracks as a template, replace everything to make your finished CD...

I'd keep bouncing to a minimum. #Make it a Zen game, and see how good you can make it sound with only 4 tracks available...

I had a Tascam 488 8-track machine for years, and it was a great little machine. #I'll bet you could pick up one of those for not a lot of money these days...

I never ran the Mark II version, but it might be worth looking into...

[J. Mark Lane]

John,

I know this is not what you want to hear, but imo you would be well advised to listen anyway <g>.

I owned two cassette 4 tracks, a cheap one from years ago, and a Tascam MKII. Both were good quality, the Tascam in particular was a fine machine, and was working very well when I sold it. I bought both machines (the latter an "upgrade", thinking it would clear up the problems I was having) for the purpose of educational recording. I think exactly what you are doing.

I never really got much use out of them. It's a pain to work with one of those things, frankly. Constantly rewinding, waiting, etc etc etc. And the tapes themselves are a pain to use, store, etc. And they tend to go bad with time (in some cases, not very much time).

Finally, a couple years ago, I broke down and went digital. It was like suddenly the darkness was lifted. Mind you, I am not great with "technology," and resist learning. (I ain't got TIME!) There is a small learning curve, but it's waaaaay worth it. My practice sessions are now relatively painless (at least as far as recording stuff goes). I can do all kinds of neat tricks, instantly with the push of a button. No waiting. No rewinding. No tapes. And I can email the files around to people, put them on a CD, edit them...anything I want, all with software that came with my computer or is free on the Internet. Unless you have a compelling reason to want analog, I strongly urge you to buy a low-end digital machine.

Just fyi, mine is a Boss BR8. These are not made any more, and are a generation or two behind, even in the low-end digital market. But the reasons for that are irrelevant to me. It does everything I want, easily. It has an internal mixer, effects, 8 tracks, bouncing capabilities, marker capabilities, repeat function (just push "A" to mark the start and "B" to mark the end place, and it repeats), an awesome tuner built in, metronome, "drum"/rhythm function (rarely used, but sometimes...), and many other features. The machine has digital out lines that can go directly in to a computer (including optical), and analog out lines to go a stereo or whatever. It also has analog in, which I have coming from an external analog mixer (see below). Files are stored on 100 meg zip disks (and I have a zip drive for the computer, too, although it is not needed as you can go cable out if your computer has inputs (decent sound card neded).

I just looked and saw four BR8's on ebay, from about $160 to about $300 (the latter included lots of extras).

The one thing the BR8 doesn't have (but many other low-end digital machines do have) is phantom power. So if you want to use condensor mics (not necessary), you will need a source to power them (either a preamp, or a mixer with phantom power). I wanted to mess with analog mixers anyway (just to learn how to use them), so I added a Carvin SM162 that I got used for $60. That gives me 8 inputs that can be taken down to one for the BR8. Each has phantom power. It also gives me more "visible" and readily accessible mixer functions than the digital mixer in the BR8, but it is not needed, really. It's just a toy for me.

Other than that, all you need is a mic, a stand, a mic cable, and something to plug it into (all of which you need anyway). I first bought a Shure SM57 (about $80), which worked quite nicely. I wanted to try a condensor, and jumped on a "two for $99" sale at GC for two Oktava MC012's. Very nice mics.

Incidentally, one of the good things about this setup is that you can dump the practice tracks from an instructional set (like the Roland White set) onto a zip disk, and set them up in the machine and play back, repeat, record over the rhythm tracks, etc. Very useful practice tool.

Consider all this. And for about the same money you want to mess with tapes. Hrmph!

[Spruce]

Nice post...

So many choices... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

I remember well hanging out at Fantasy studios in the late 60's thinking that the only way I was ever going to get to record something that sounded halfway-decent was to win the lottery. #
Good sounding studios were for the rich or very talented, and I was neither...
Oh well...

But now, for very little money, you can have a great sounding studio with the same signal chain as a major studio...

It's a great time to be recording...

[PlayerOf8]

Bruce,
How you doing on your electric project?

George

[Spruce]

Hi George..

It's coming along, but got a bit derailed by another mando recording project that is just about finished...

I'll send you one when it's done...

[luckylarue]

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for the info. I must confess that I was going to give up on my seldom-used Yamaha 4-track and attempt to enter the digital fray. I'm quite illiterate when it comes to computer software and seem overwhelmed by all the choices and options. Your comments have rekindled my desire to set up a decent home studio using the 4-track tape. My question is, why or how would you use the mixer and/or mic preamp? What if the mixer has a built-in preamp? Could you recommend specific Mackie model or possibly another affordable preamp? Can the Mackie mixer and preamp be used for live situations as, well?
Sorry for all the questions - I realize this is basic recording stuff but I feel I need it explained to me as if to a three year-old! I signed up for TapeOp, also. Thanks for the help, Scott.

[Spruce]

"My question is, why or how would you use the mixer and/or mic preamp?"

An improvment in your mic pres is the best way to improve your recordings, regardless of what your recording format is...

Consider that a good mic pre can cost as much as 1K per channel or more, and one can pic up a 6-channel Mackie for what? #1-200 bucks? Big difference.
I recently found one for 50 bucks, and it works fine...

Mackie pres are actually pretty good, but are no comparison to a good outboard pre, which one then sends straight to tape...

"What if the mixer has a built-in preamp? "

Use it, but keep the above in mind....

"Could you recommend #specific Mackie model or possibly another affordable preamp?"

Mic pres are kinda like wine...
You have to throw money at it for it to be any good...

That being said, I really like the Symetrix SX202 (discontinued) for acoustic instruments, and they can be had for 150 bucks for a 2-channel unit on ebay.

I'm sure there are lots of other units out there that are good. #I recently saw a Nady 8-channel mic pre for under 100 bucks. #I wonder if it's any good...??

"# #Can the Mackie mixer and preamp be used for live situations as, well?"

Yep....
That little Mackie 1202 (that's the one I found for 50 bucks) is a sweet little 8-track mixer, with 4 mic pres.
I run a single DA38 into it for a portable recording system, and it works just fine.
You could make a nice sounding recording with that system, and use it for a PA with powered speakers...

Luck!

#

[Darryl Wolfe]

I've got one of these little puppies. I think it was in the 4 digit$$ range when I got it.#


tascam (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=294&item=3764551773&rd=1)

It's done a good job, but I will probably get something digital if I ever fire it back up again

[J. Mark Lane]

You got a 1202 for $50? Wow. That's pretty decent.

I do find that my little Carvin SM162 is pretty darn good for the money -- $60. It has 8 mic inputs with pres and phantom power. These were never as popular as the Mackies, so I think they go pretty cheap. Just fwiw.

Mark

[RandyLaMoraa]

John,
# I think the thing to keep in mind is what your goal is, if all you want to do is lay down scratch tracks then go as cheap as possible, guitar center ( not one of my favorite places) has a cheap behringer mixer with 2 mic pres and 48v, for about 50.00, and you can pick up a cheap mic and cable for very little then buy the cheapest new 4 track you can find and make your scratch tracks, the advantage to this is almost no almost no learning curve and minimum money, but keep your goal in mind, SCRATCH TRACKS.
#It is hard to think up new licks when your head is buried in an owners manual and you are worried about where the money is going to come from to pay for all this stuff you just bought.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # Randy LaMora
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Waconia Minnesota

[Mandobar]

i just got a korg digital recorder, the pxr4 and barely touched my tascam tape unit. i prefer the digital as it is easy to convert it off using the smartmedia cards it utilizes. i'll probably sell the tascam in my next "great purge".