c.1890 Carlo Albertini Milanese / Lombardic Mandolin

[Jake Wildwood]

HAH! Just finished this cool, fantastic-condition Milanese mando!

Click here for a blog post with full pics and writeup. (http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.com/2011/10/c1890-carlo-albertini-milanese-or.html)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0f2uHkAYOyc/TpnmNPm43eI/AAAAAAAAO_E/U90ylu0f-zo/s1600/milan1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BrtrCkIeTzE/TpnmAQ2Z9hI/AAAAAAAAO90/xoBY-dD1u6E/s1600/milan8.jpg

[Tavy]

Nice, but gosh you don't get much neck on those do you? What is that a 6th fret body join?!

[Jake Wildwood]

Heh, essentially -- 7th fret -- but as a friend often quotes String Bean -- "There ain't no money above the 5th fret."

[Jim Garber]

Nice job, Jake. These are more like soprano lutes or even small guitars as they are essentially tuned in fourths. As you can also see it has a scalloped fretboard. What kind of strings did you set it up with, Jake? Aquila? How did you figure gauges?

I have mine strung with real gut but the high string broke pretty quickly and the gut strings are very expensive. I would use the nylgut if I could figure out the gauges. Also might tune is like an octave guitar to avoid learning let another tuning.

[Jim Garber]

Whoops! I should have read your blog post first:


They're essentially the same size as a bowlback mandolin but tend to be a little wider and shallower front to back, with a neck join more towards the nut. Standard tuning was GBEADG (or at a modern pitch, FADGCF) though... many (if not most) modern folks tune these an octave up from classical guitar at EADGBE (these are all "low to high"). I've done the latter, using Aquila Nylgut strings... and the tone is... fabulous!

So, where did you get that octave guitar set?

[Jake Wildwood]

Hi Jim, and thanks!

The benefit of working on instruments is you have a ton of weird random strings laying about... I had half a set of GDAE nylgut mandolin strings which gave me the: wound A (G), D, and E strings. For the low E I used a nylgut wound A from an Alabastro guitar set I had leftover. For the G & B strings I used a nylgut uke G and uke A string.

So... to make that simpler...

E from guitar A wound
A from mandolin G wound
D from mandolin D plain
G from uke first G string
B from uke last A (or B in ADF#B tuning) string
E from mandolin high E plain

This can easily be tuned up to EADGCF for pure 4ths (a nice compromise) as the short scale is good for that. I was considering the traditional tuning but sheesh, why relearn? You gain a little low end this way, too, and the wound low end nylgut strings sound really cool with tremolo.

[Jim Garber]

Thanks for the specs on these, I have a set of those GDAE Nylgut strings and (I think) some std soprano uke Nylguts. I would just need some guitar strings.

I think Aquila will make up custom sets as well but I am not sure they will do one set and they seem to prefer to work with distributors rather than directly with the customer. BTW I bought my real gut set a few years ago from Daniel Larson Gamut Strings (http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/).

[Tavy]

I may be out of whack here but.... as the scale length must be pretty close to half that of a guitar... wouldn't a light set of classical guitar strings be about right for an octave-guitar tuning?

[Jake Wildwood]

Tavy: nope, string tension is far too high with those gauges, and they'd probably snap trying to be tuned to that pitch. Nylon-style strings have weird properties vs. steel. For example, in the GDAE nylgut mandolin set mentioned, the high E on a nylgut classical guitar set has a thickness somewhere around the A string range.

[Jim Garber]

After hearing Chris Acquavella play his Brian Dean baroque mandolino, I do have a yen for trying to play my single strung version. Thanks for the info, Jake!

I do wonder, tho, if there is a simpler way than buying multiple sets of breaking up others. Does anyone sell single Aquila strings or know of a way to determine how to buy a custom set?

[Margriet]

I had half a set of GDAE nylgut mandolin strings which gave me the: wound A (G), D, and E strings. For the low E I used a nylgut wound A from an Alabastro guitar set I had leftover. For the G & B strings I used a nylgut uke G and uke A string.

I would not make such combination. I learned - from experience - that you need strings that are in balance to your instrument and (by that) to each other.
I was trying to find out strings for my Lombardian 6 -strings for about two years. There was always one string not right in tune, or the difference in sound between the wound and plain strings was too big, etc.
In this thread http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?67207-Lombardy-tuning-problem.... other mandolin friends gave their measures and gauges. And there is the Crane website. It depends the scalelength, the material ( nylgut, nylon, gut, fluorocarbon), the tuning ( f.i. 415 or 440Hz).
You must make a calculation, according to your instrument; scalelength, gauge, tuning. Fortunately mr. Mauro Squillante did this for me during his masterclass in August.
Now I use Pyramid nylon lute strings, wound and plain. In future I will try nylgut, but the most important is, that I PLAY (!!!) and that I ENJOY it so much, because it is in tune. Even when I take the instrument out of its case there is nothing or few to be tuned. And as the pegs are so big, it is not easy to fine- tune, so this is very comfortable. The sound of the strings is in balance, that gives so much more pleasure to play....!


GDAE nylgut mandolin strings

What is that ? Which kind of GDAE mandolin needs nylgut strings ? jazz ?


Jake Wildwood: This can easily be tuned up to EADGCF for pure 4ths (a nice compromise) as the short scale is good for that. I was considering the traditional tuning but sheesh, why relearn?

Jim Garber: Also might tune it like an octave guitar to avoid learning let another tuning.

WHY ????
I guess my aim with this instrument is different, because I don't understand, why you would play in another tuning. What repertoire you would play with it ? And is that repertoire not easier on a Neapolitan gdae -tuned mandolin?
I like the charm of music, made for this instrument. I would like to have a 6 -course mandolino, to play the baroque repertoire, but I don't have. I have Lombardian and it is tuned in the same way and with the same kind of strings. This allows me to study the repertoire, also the baroque. STUDY: I know, that much repertoire was made for the 6-course mandolino and that the instruments are different.
In the short time that I am playing now, I can recognize pieces that are made for instruments, tuned in quarts. And I am enjoying it a lot, learning, finding out the fingering.

Learning to play in a different tuning than what you are used to ? Refreshment for the brains, medicin against stiffness in the brain, keeps young.

It is really an experience, playing such an instrument, with its delicate, charming sound and ways of playing, the sculped fingerboard, the softer strings. I started with a cherrywood plectrum and will learn to play with the fingers as well - again something new, but why not ?

Margriet

[Jim Garber]

Jim Garber: Also might tune it like an octave guitar to avoid learning let another tuning.


WHY ????
I guess my aim with this instrument is different, because I don't understand, why you would play in another tuning. What repertoire you would play with it ? And is that repertoire not easier on a Neapolitan gdae -tuned mandolin?

My lovely Serafino Casini Lombard has been sitting idle since it was stored. I wish I had your time and energy, Margriet, to learn to play in the proper tuning but the sad fact is that I barely have time to play my modern mandolin. Also, I was thinking that I would not necessarily play it for a classical repertoire but more for a folky or even jazzy one. At least the instrument would get played, even if in the wrong tuning.

[brunello97]

…. I was thinking that I would not necessarily play it for a classical repertoire but more for a folky or even jazzy one..

Check this version of "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IpODcXezU

I've been playing it on the mandolin but the fingering is weird. May be just great plucked alla Milanese. Addio Maiale Torta Cappello!

Mick

[Margriet]

My lovely Serafino Casini Lombard has been sitting idle since it was stored.
I was thinking that I would not necessarily play it for a classical repertoire but more for a folky or even jazzy one. At least the instrument would get played, even if in the wrong tuning.

I see, that your main reason is to play the mandolin, or at least that it will be played.
If you love your mandolin, and not intending to play the repertoire where she is made for, I would suggest you to check very well the gauges of the strings that the mandolin needs. If it is a strange kind of mixture, a trial, you will not enjoy ( my experience). If the strings are too strong, your instrument will be played, but for a short time ( she will be hurt).

There are string calculators available on the web. Some to buy, some to download. I hope to learn to use them.

Margriet

[Jake Wildwood]

Hi Margriet,

The string gauges I used for the instrument in EADGBE tuning seem perfectly fine -- ie, they aren't going out of tune from one another while playing unless I'm bending them by accident. I entirely agree that one needs the correct strings for the correct tuning and scale length. The reason I used a mixed set is that it was the only way to get an all-nylgut set in the gauges I wanted.

The reason I'm using above tuning is also simply that at least over here the market for these instruments is practically nonexistant and having it tuned to an octave above guitar makes it easy for guitarists (and many mandolinists who double on guitar) to play it without relearning. It's a matter of convenience.

Regarding tension -- I'm constantly working on lots of (for over here) strange fretted instruments, so I'm familiar enough with nylgut gauges at various scale lengths to know what's too slack or too tight for a given instrument -- and I always lean towards the lighter tension side as I'm not one who believes driving the top overly much is a particularly good idea musically or practically.

[Jake Wildwood]

Oh, and also, Aquila makes a specific GDAE double-course set for bowlback mandolins. I've been considering building a mando braced for that set just for myself recently, as I love the tone but would prefer a more responsive instrument made for it.

[brunello97]

Thanks, Jake, for the tip on the Aquila mandolin strings. Here is a direct link:

http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=222%3Amandolino&catid=50&Itemid=387&lang=en

Be forewarned, navigating that site is like driving a car around Genova.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

That would work rather nicely on this Albertini Brescian mandolino, I would think. At least the tuning is the same range tho I am not sure of the scale, since I don't have one.

[Margriet]

Thanks, Jake, for your explanation. I see.
I wondered, because I found that it is easier to play in the tuning where the piece is made for. You are thinking of players who take other repertoire, in that case this is not an issue.
You were able to make a good mixture, I wasn't and I think more people might not, so I think a good calculation is important.

I am still wondering for what kind of mandolin the set nylgut strings ee aa DD GG are meant. The only time that I read that someone who was considering nylon on his mandolin, was here at the cafe, regarding jazz. I think the frets will be too sharp and the nylon or gut or nylgut will be worn very soon.
Yes, the Brescian mandolin that Jim shows, is one that needs (nyl)gut with this tuning, but it has single strings.( Nice mandolin, Jim!)
Do I miss something ?

[tonydxn]

In case it's of any use to anyone finding their way to this thread, here is a link to a string gauge calculator for strings other than steel. It works for gut, nylgut, nylon, fluorocarbon, brass and iron. https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Calcs/wwwscalc.html
It uses Java, so you must have Java activated on your computer or it won't work.

[s11141827]

Hi Jim, and thanks!

The benefit of working on instruments is you have a ton of weird random strings laying about... I had half a set of GDAE nylgut mandolin strings which gave me the: wound A (G), D, and E strings. For the low E I used a nylgut wound A from an Alabastro guitar set I had leftover. For the G & B strings I used a nylgut uke G and uke A string.

So... to make that simpler...

E from guitar A wound
A from mandolin G wound
D from mandolin D plain
G from uke first G string
B from uke last A (or B in ADF#B tuning) string
E from mandolin high E plain

This can easily be tuned up to EADGCF for pure 4ths (a nice compromise) as the short scale is good for that. I was considering the traditional tuning but sheesh, why relearn? You gain a little low end this way, too, and the wound low end nylgut strings sound really cool with tremolo.

Aquila 145C Guitalele strings for High E Tuning would work great for Octave Guitar Tuning

[Jim Garber]

Aquila 145C Guitalele strings for High E Tuning would work great for Octave Guitar Tuning

That is good to know but those strings didn’t exist when this thread started about eleven years ago. I did consult and ordered an octave guitar custom set directly from Aquila. Also I would check the scale of a guitalele to make sure the current set is appropriate for the mandolino.